*Graphite Design Lovers Anonymous* Tour AD UB vs IZ vs XC and NOW vs TP! ...and HD....and VR

[CTgamer]

1 hour ago, noodle3872 said:

Russ’ EI Rating should not be confused with how a shaft will feel during a swing. All EI Rating represents is a consistent way of rating flex of the shaft within his measurement system. Russ’ technical articles explain this pretty well. 

Not sure if this was directed at my comment, but yeah we agree - EI area is just a way to measure and compare shaft stiffness. I’ve also found that EI signature (the first derivative of the EI profile curve) is the most accurate proxy for shaft feel, but everyone is different so ymmv

[CTgamer]

2 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I've seen the Russ's chart as well on the GT vs VF comparison.  On paper they're similar, however, that's where the similarities end.  I have the VF in driver and GT in 3 metal.  If the GT and VF were essentially the same with that small tweak in the tip, then the GT should in theory work for me in driver as well, however, it didn't.  I believe it's a feel and stability factor.  VF is more anti-left and doesn't quite kick/bend the same as the GT.  I also swing driver more aggressively than 3 metal so that may have to do with why the GT doesn't work in driver but wonderfully so in 3 metal.  

I remember reading that you felt they kicked a bit different, and makes sense on how aggressively you’re swinging one club or another. What flex and weight were you testing in driver btw…70TX?

 

The lighter weights of the GT were a bit higher torque than VF iirc. I’d also be curious about differences in AoA and release pattern between driver/3w. But ultimately, heard! Feel can be so individual 

[CTgamer]

..

Edited December 5, 2024 by CTgamer
Double post

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, CTgamer said:

I remember reading that you felt they kicked a bit different, and makes sense on how aggressively you’re swinging one club or another. What flex and weight were you testing in driver btw…70TX?

 

The lighter weights of the GT were a bit higher torque than VF iirc. I’d also be curious about differences in AoA and release pattern between driver/3w. But ultimately, heard! Feel can be so individual 

GT and VF were/are both 70TX for driver.  Driver is +2 to 3 AoA and 3 metal is 0 to -1.  

[mattman]

I decided to get one. First time hitting it outdoors and with my TSR4... really good. I don't know exactly how to word it but it has a nice snap into the ball. Hand definitely feels firm and the kick seems lower in the shaft? Idk, very smooth. I think it feels firmer than other GD shafts. Was getting a high ball flight out of it.

Edited December 8, 2024 by mattman

[Mob]

I have been going back and forth on the course and the simulator over the past 3-4 months with the: HD, UB, TP, and VF.  So far, I think the HD has been the best driver shaft for me.  The VF has had less playing time as it was the latest addition, but it performed extremely well on course for me the 1-2 times I have tried it.  I am going to go through them all again on the simulator over the next couple of weeks.  If the HD is clearly better than the UB and TP for me, then I will sell those 2 shafts, so I can focus on the HD vs. VF.  May try the GC at that point.

[Morry]

23 hours ago, Mob said:

I have been going back and forth on the course and the simulator over the past 3-4 months with the: HD, UB, TP, and VF.  So far, I think the HD has been the best driver shaft for me.  The VF has had less playing time as it was the latest addition, but it performed extremely well on course for me the 1-2 times I have tried it.  I am going to go through them all again on the simulator over the next couple of weeks.  If the HD is clearly better than the UB and TP for me, then I will sell those 2 shafts, so I can focus on the HD vs. VF.  May try the GC at that point.

going to be doing same with 3 woods soon I hope 

hd vs tp vs di vs ub 

 

will report back 

[Mob]

I couldn't stop myself and ended up buying a GC as well. The UB and TP are out.  Now it is down to the HD,VF and GC when it comes.  A good winter project for me.

[mattman]

On 12/10/2024 at 3:29 PM, Mob said:

I couldn't stop myself and ended up buying a GC as well. The UB and TP are out.  Now it is down to the HD,VF and GC when it comes.  A good winter project for me.

Really curious to hear how you compare the GC and the HD

[OspreyCI]

On 12/10/2024 at 1:29 PM, Mob said:

I couldn't stop myself and ended up buying a GC as well. The UB and TP are out.  Now it is down to the HD,VF and GC when it comes.  A good winter project for me.

Why were the UB and TP out? Thanks. 

[Mob]

18 hours ago, mattman said:

Really curious to hear how you compare the GC and the HD

Only hit the GC for one round on the simulator.  Initial impression is that it is a very nice feeling shaft.  Maybe alittle less noticeable kick than the HD.  Performance was similar between the two.  Definitely a contender, I just need a lot more time with it.  I will get some numbers comparing the two shafts tomorrow.

[Mob]

17 hours ago, OspreyCI said:

Why were the UB and TP out? Thanks. 

Numbers and the on course performance was better with the HD than either the UB or the TP.  I am trying to narrow shafts down, so I had to start somewhere.  I did go back and forth many times before coming to this conclusion.  HD isn't a better shaft than the UB or the TP, it is just a better shaft for my swing.

[Mob]

 

Hit a few tonight.  The numbers look pretty similar between the 2 shafts.  The HD had alittle more kick, which I like the feel of.  The GC felt more linear to me.  I also felt like I was hitting center face alittle more with the HD.  On course performance is definitely going to be the deciding factor; so I will have to wait until the spring.  I'll test again tomorrow and include the VF.

[JourdanM]

Any IZ fairway fans having success with the GC in driver ?

[Latetogolf76]

Well the xc70x experiment is over the soft handle and I do not get on in driver when I get after it feels all over the place and launches to high with to much spin on a positive note ub60tx in gt2+ fairway is a great alternative of the tee and off the deck very good  into the wind here on mud island 

[mattman]

On 12/14/2024 at 5:04 PM, Mob said:

 

Hit a few tonight.  The numbers look pretty similar between the 2 shafts.  The HD had alittle more kick, which I like the feel of.  The GC felt more linear to me.  I also felt like I was hitting center face alittle more with the HD.  On course performance is definitely going to be the deciding factor; so I will have to wait until the spring.  I'll test again tomorrow and include the VF.

Are you playing the same flex in both? The gc may feel more linear due to being stiffer. flex for flex, on paper, it is stiffer. They should be highly similar profiles.

 

those numbers are so similar aha

Edited December 17, 2024 by mattman

[Mob]

2 minutes ago, mattman said:

Are you playing the same flex in both? The gc may feel more linear due to being stiffer. flex for flex, on paper, it is stiffer. They should be highly similar profiles.

 

those numbers are so similar aha

Same weight and flex. I was surprised how similar the numbers were.

[Wardonation]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:03 PM, Mob said:

Same weight and flex. I was surprised how similar the numbers were.

how does it compare to the VF

[Mob]

2 hours ago, Wardonation said:

how does it compare to the VF

VF feels stiffer, launches lower, spins less, and subjectively feels harder to load, at least in my hands.

[phizzy30]

On 12/18/2024 at 2:50 PM, Mob said:

VF feels stiffer, launches lower, spins less, and subjectively feels harder to load, at least in my hands.

Agree.  I'd say that the GC is similar to the UB in terms of launch/spin and feel but with a different/almost opposite EI profile for those that don't like a stiff tip and softer handle. 

[Rearviewmirror]

Hey folks. I recently converted to a Tour AD IZ in my driver (loving the tight dispersion) and decided to do the same with my 4W. I'm coming from a Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 1K Blue 65, and the AD IZ 6S 4W shaft I picked up is maybe 1/8th of an inch shorter than the Tensei was.

 

So far it's not been as plug and play as driver, and has introduced a bit of a left miss. I've measured and it looks like it is tipped ~0.5" compared to the driver shaft.

 

Any thoughts or advice?

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, Rearviewmirror said:

Hey folks. I recently converted to a Tour AD IZ in my driver (loving the tight dispersion) and decided to do the same with my 4W. I'm coming from a Mitsubishi Tensei Blue 1K Blue 65, and the AD IZ 6S 4W shaft I picked up is maybe 1/8th of an inch shorter than the Tensei was.

 

So far it's not been as plug and play as driver, and has introduced a bit of a left miss. I've measured and it looks like it is tipped ~0.5" compared to the driver shaft.

 

Any thoughts or advice?

Something working in driver doesnt mean itll work in smaller woods.

 

4W is sometimes a little heavier than 3W, so maybe tip it a little extra.

 

Your delivery might be different so maybe the IZ just doesnt work as well as driver.

[mattman]

I got to see some numbers with the GC on trackman last night. Super promising, really liking it. It's been a long time since I've tried a mid-soft shaft in the driver and it seems like this might be the play. Closest thing would have been a VF 7 X I got fit into this summer (too heavy imo after playing with it for a few months. Heaviest shaft I had played in driver up to that point). I seemed to leave the VF out right too often unless I was really feeling fresh and I think it was just heavier than I needed it to be.

 

My driver misses tend to spin a lot (high push fade), and I was seeing some of that with the GC on trackman, but my good stuff was really good. 110-111 club (solid for me), 1.48 smash very consistently, 11-13* launch, and my best ones had about 2400 RPM's on em (pro v1x ball) and were getting around 100 feet in the air. Overall I was flying them 275-280 with rollout getting me over 300 on the best ones. This is not something I've seen since mid-summer (hard to compare 1:1 vs previous set ups as well as my swing got bad/sloppy and only recently starting to mend that). The combined extra launch and sub-2500 spin (or even sub-3k!) for me has not been there and most of my on course drives the latter half of this year topped out 275-280, with most settling around 260-265. The feel of this shaft is awesome too. Somebody dm'd me asking how GC compared to TP, and I didn't have a great answer as I have not played TP in driver (only fairway woods), but after some more time with this in driver and TP in fairways I do think this shaft has a more pleasant feel to it. With how popular the VF has been this year on tour, I wonder if the GC will see similar popularity. Both are excellent. Very promising with the GC so far, pretty sure it'll be in my driver next season... may look at moving from TP to GC at some point in the spring in one or both fairways, we'll see...

 

Matt

Edited December 21, 2024 by mattman

[third-times-a-charm]

8 hours ago, mattman said:

I got to see some numbers with the GC on trackman last night. Super promising, really liking it. It's been a long time since I've tried a mid-soft shaft in the driver and it seems like this might be the play. Closest thing would have been a VF 7 X I got fit into this summer (too heavy imo after playing with it for a few months. Heaviest shaft I had played in driver up to that point). I seemed to leave the VF out right too often unless I was really feeling fresh and I think it was just heavier than I needed it to be.

 

My driver misses tend to spin a lot (high push fade), and I was seeing some of that with the GC on trackman, but my good stuff was really good. 110-111 club (solid for me), 1.48 smash very consistently, 11-13* launch, and my best ones had about 2400 RPM's on em (pro v1x ball) and were getting around 100 feet in the air. Overall I was flying them 275-280 with rollout getting me over 300 on the best ones. This is not something I've seen since mid-summer (hard to compare 1:1 vs previous set ups as well as my swing got bad/sloppy and only recently starting to mend that). The combined extra launch and sub-2500 spin (or even sub-3k!) for me has not been there and most of my on course drives the latter half of this year topped out 275-280, with most settling around 260-265. The feel of this shaft is awesome too. Somebody dm'd me asking how GC compared to TP, and I didn't have a great answer as I have not played TP in driver (only fairway woods), but after some more time with this in driver and TP in fairways I do think this shaft has a more pleasant feel to it. With how popular the VF has been this year on tour, I wonder if the GC will see similar popularity. Both are excellent. Very promising with the GC so far, pretty sure it'll be in my driver next season... may look at moving from TP to GC at some point in the spring in one or both fairways, we'll see...

 

Matt

 

Sort of a rant...

 

VF got off the ground quick because its a "low/low" (not really) and Tiger plus a few other PGAT pros put it in the bag right away for testing.

 

It's a shame in the American market that GD needs TV airtime and Tiger Woods (like the DI did) to be gamed by end users, because fitters at the popular fitting centers are too lazy to fit anyone into anything that isnt a Ventus with the low-IQ 3-color system. Last time I was in a fitting bay the guy looked at me like I had two heads when I told him I dont want any Fujikura products and to let me try some GD shafts. He didnt even know where to start...went straight to the XC 😂

 

The VF has gotten the most adoption I've seen in recent memory because of the above. The UB did fairly well also, but because (unofficially) I think Titleist made a deal for a batch of shafts and pushed it in their TSr fittings a year or so ago.

 

 

[mbart]

Does anyone have the EI chart for the Fujikura Pro (blue one) from 2014? Wondering if the XC might be a good one to try out given both are “soft handle”. I know for GD it’s all relative, and I’ve seen the EI chart for the XC, but wondering how the old Fuji Pro might compare to XC. 
Thanks

[phizzy30]

36 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

Sort of a rant...

 

VF got off the ground quick because its a "low/low" (not really) and Tiger plus a few other PGAT pros put it in the bag right away for testing.

 

It's a shame in the American market that GD needs TV airtime and Tiger Woods (like the DI did) to be gamed by end users, because fitters at the popular fitting centers are too lazy to fit anyone into anything that isnt a Ventus with the low-IQ 3-color system. Last time I was in a fitting bay the guy looked at me like I had two heads when I told him I dont want any Fujikura products and to let me try some GD shafts. He didnt even know where to start...went straight to the XC 😂

 

The VF has gotten the most adoption I've seen in recent memory because of the above. The UB did fairly well also, but because (unofficially) I think Titleist made a deal for a batch of shafts and pushed it in their TSr fittings a year or so ago.

 

 

GD's lineup is on par performance wise with the big 3 here(Fuji/PX/MCA) but they fly under the radar because there isn't as much exposure nor adoption on the PGA Tour.   You go to the Asian countries and GD is revered especially in Japan and Korea.  You see a lot more GD in the bags of the tour pros over there.  It's an exposure/popularity/marketing thing, IMO.     

[mattman]

1 hour ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

Sort of a rant...

 

VF got off the ground quick because its a "low/low" (not really) and Tiger plus a few other PGAT pros put it in the bag right away for testing.

 

It's a shame in the American market that GD needs TV airtime and Tiger Woods (like the DI did) to be gamed by end users, because fitters at the popular fitting centers are too lazy to fit anyone into anything that isnt a Ventus with the low-IQ 3-color system. Last time I was in a fitting bay the guy looked at me like I had two heads when I told him I dont want any Fujikura products and to let me try some GD shafts. He didnt even know where to start...went straight to the XC 😂

 

The VF has gotten the most adoption I've seen in recent memory because of the above. The UB did fairly well also, but because (unofficially) I think Titleist made a deal for a batch of shafts and pushed it in their TSr fittings a year or so ago.

 

 

VF was a perfect storm of a good colorway, tour adoption (colorway surely helped there), and reputation as a ventus black competitor. that's for sure. GD probably won't see another hit like that for a while.

 

As for a quick comment on fittings, the state of the golf industry in that regard is pitiful. Fitting technicians at box stores and equipment reps alike don't know/don't care what they're doing and let the "optimizer" (their God) do the work for them. Get some numbers in a good window and good to go. In my experience, this works fine until you get enough reps in a club to find the faults with the set up - over time and over the

course of rounds. Not a range session where you're banging balls and progressively getting faster and more grooved (to a point).
 

So part of it's the fault of the fitter for not being clued in beyond basic LM #'s (which anyone can learn for themselves in 3 minutes), and part of it is the nature of the fitting world where you the amateur bang on balls on a range for 30 minutes and done. I've had like one good fitting ever and that was through the pro at my club. All else was a waste of time.

 

Fitting custom culture is just another way to sell clubs to people and make them feel secure about their purchase. After a while you realize it's like anything else in life and you just gotta do the work and research yourself, and thats why we post here.

Edited December 21, 2024 by mattman

[noodle3872]

The problem GD has vs Fujikura and Mitsubishi is are all over the map with their launch/spin expectations whereas Fujikura and Mitsubishi stick to low/low, mid/mid and mid-high/mid. More options are great until confusion reigns. 

[mattman]

13 hours ago, noodle3872 said:

The problem GD has vs Fujikura and Mitsubishi is are all over the map with their launch/spin expectations whereas Fujikura and Mitsubishi stick to low/low, mid/mid and mid-high/mid. More options are great until confusion reigns. 

Yeah they don't advertise that one graphic much because it's not very good. If anything GD suffers from having *more* similarity and overlap than other brands, not less. For example, the HD, VR, and now GC are all highly similar, yet all current

[dwboston]

1 hour ago, mattman said:

Yeah they don't advertise that one graphic much because it's not very good. If anything GD suffers from having *more* similarity and overlap than other brands, not less. For example, the HD, VR, and now GC are all highly similar, yet all current

 

Exactly - GD uses this chart, which is linked right on the Pro's Choice site.

 

Edited December 21, 2024 by dwboston