*Graphite Design Lovers Anonymous* Tour AD UB vs IZ vs XC and NOW vs TP! ...and HD....and VR

[OspreyCI]

22 minutes ago, Garney17 said:

I think loose is a good way to describe it. No doubt my swing is part of the issue, but I felt like I could put similar swings on two shots, and one would go left while the other went right. I found a good deal on a TP-6S online so I'm going to give it a try. Thanks for your input! 

This is how dumb I am

or how this site gets me….I have been fit into the TP-6s twice by PXG a year apart then by Callaway after that…And I don’t use the TP🤔 I do love the UB though😂 TP’s will probably end up in my fairways. TP is a very solid shaft that does not get enough respect. 

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, Garney17 said:

I think loose is a good way to describe it. No doubt my swing is part of the issue, but I felt like I could put similar swings on two shots, and one would go left while the other went right. I found a good deal on a TP-6S online so I'm going to give it a try. Thanks for your input! 

Oddly enough, you're in the same I was many years ago.  I've hit some of the longest drives with the DI, however, my misses were mostly huge hooks.  I've tested the TP and found it to be a bit more stable.  It doesn't have as much kick and firmer in mid and handle.

[Garney17]

16 hours ago, dwboston said:

 

Consensus has been that tipping the DI 6S a little extra helps with the "loose" complaints.

I considered it but read that GD generally recommends against tipping driver shafts. I'll keep this in mind though.

 

[Garney17]

15 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Oddly enough, you're in the same I was many years ago.  I've hit some of the longest drives with the DI, however, my misses were mostly huge hooks.  I've tested the TP and found it to be a bit more stable.  It doesn't have as much kick and firmer in mid and handle.

Interesting. I'm excited to try out the TP and see the difference. Ideally I would like to get back to the DI at some point as it really does increase distance by quite a bit. Appreciate the input!

[Amarsuperstar]

Alright you GD acolytes I'd love some insight. My old shaft (Ventus TR Black 6X) broke a few weeks ago and I'm ready to try something new anyway. I have a few swing issues going right now. So I'm swinging terribly but want to buy something to have to practice with. Obviously it would be nice if it's something I can stick with for the year. 

 

I went to a fitting but like I said, could barely hit the face. Still got a decent feel for shaft action. I really enjoyed the GD AD-VF 6X. They had the 6TX but I only got one swing and then the all-fit adapter stripped out. That one swing still felt very smooth. 

 

I've typically fit into very mid-stiff shafts. My transition is quick-ish, I release late, and I'm on the very high end of CHS. The profile of the AD-VF is definitely different than I've used before. Therefore the 6X worries me a little that I will lose clubhead awareness due to the softer mid. 

 

I can get a deal on on a mfg that only offers the VR in 6X. Debating straight in or tipped. Or I can pay more and go with Titleist and get the 6TX. 

 

Anyone who loads the shaft a bunch have feedback on these shafts? Big difference between the X and TX? The only high speed player I've seen use the VF is Charlie Reiter and I think he has just the 6X. Not sure of the tipping situation on his setup. 

 

Can anyone comment on tipping? Based on the EI profile I would guess that tipping these actually would make them launch higher, not lower. 

 

Thanks for you insight!

[JamesG12]

It’s been a while since I’ve been on this thread, as I’ve been playing a DI 5x for the past 2 or so years. 
 

I seem to do best in the mid to high 50s weight class but I want to try something new… I think in 5s or 5x. I swing around 104-105, but the DI is so soft that X worked better at the lighter weight. 
 

I think the softer mid and not a super stiff tip work best for me. I did have the UB in the past in a 6s and hit some long drives with it but couldn’t control it. The VF I tried and it’s a no go.  
 

anyone else playing in the 50g range? What is working? I don’t NEED to switch but want to try some stuff. 

[mizuno player]

4 hours ago, JamesG12 said:

It’s been a while since I’ve been on this thread, as I’ve been playing a DI 5x for the past 2 or so years. 
 

I seem to do best in the mid to high 50s weight class but I want to try something new… I think in 5s or 5x. I swing around 104-105, but the DI is so soft that X worked better at the lighter weight. 
 

I think the softer mid and not a super stiff tip work best for me. I did have the UB in the past in a 6s and hit some long drives with it but couldn’t control it. The VF I tried and it’s a no go.  
 

anyone else playing in the 50g range? What is working? I don’t NEED to switch but want to try some stuff. 

I currently have the VF 5x.  As of last year I love it!! Hopefully it didn't abandon me over the winter. 

[phizzy30]

On 2/21/2025 at 10:05 AM, Amarsuperstar said:

Alright you GD acolytes I'd love some insight. My old shaft (Ventus TR Black 6X) broke a few weeks ago and I'm ready to try something new anyway. I have a few swing issues going right now. So I'm swinging terribly but want to buy something to have to practice with. Obviously it would be nice if it's something I can stick with for the year. 

 

I went to a fitting but like I said, could barely hit the face. Still got a decent feel for shaft action. I really enjoyed the GD AD-VF 6X. They had the 6TX but I only got one swing and then the all-fit adapter stripped out. That one swing still felt very smooth. 

 

I've typically fit into very mid-stiff shafts. My transition is quick-ish, I release late, and I'm on the very high end of CHS. The profile of the AD-VF is definitely different than I've used before. Therefore the 6X worries me a little that I will lose clubhead awareness due to the softer mid. 

 

I can get a deal on on a mfg that only offers the VR in 6X. Debating straight in or tipped. Or I can pay more and go with Titleist and get the 6TX. 

 

Anyone who loads the shaft a bunch have feedback on these shafts? Big difference between the X and TX? The only high speed player I've seen use the VF is Charlie Reiter and I think he has just the 6X. Not sure of the tipping situation on his setup. 

 

Can anyone comment on tipping? Based on the EI profile I would guess that tipping these actually would make them launch higher, not lower.  Not sure if it's the same guy but Reiter has plays a 7TX from what I remember from his WITB from last year's US Open.  

 

Thanks for you insight!

I have the 7TX and it's plenty stout even for high ss.  I did test the 6 and 7X and they both have more bend/load to them and aren't quite as stable as TX.  My transition is aggressive as well although and TX feels more stable/stout while still retaining plenty of feel.  

[Qegurezi]

On 2/22/2025 at 12:10 AM, Garney17 said:

I considered it but read that GD generally recommends against tipping driver shafts. I'll keep this in mind though.

 

 

Tiger Woods tipped his DI6 1.5". He tips his VF as well. I have never taken any notice of advice not to tip the driver (maybe the nunchuk rung true for no tipping) and the pro's certainly don't either. 

[Amarsuperstar]

12 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

I have the 7TX and it's plenty stout even for high ss.  I did test the 6 and 7X and they both have more bend/load to them and aren't quite as stable as TX.  My transition is aggressive as well although and TX feels more stable/stout while still retaining plenty of feel.  

 

Thanks! Should have known it would be you that had some experience with these.

 

I got a screaming deal on a 6X so I might try that first straight in. My Ventus got warrantied so I switched that to a OG black 6X tipped 1". If neither work I'm going to trade up to the VF in 6TX. If that's not great...maybe the T1100? I'm much faster than I've ever been so in new territory for me. Also switching to the Qi35 so the calculus changes there as well. 

[phizzy30]

8 hours ago, Amarsuperstar said:

 

Thanks! Should have known it would be you that had some experience with these.

 

I got a screaming deal on a 6X so I might try that first straight in. My Ventus got warrantied so I switched that to a OG black 6X tipped 1". If neither work I'm going to trade up to the VF in 6TX. If that's not great...maybe the T1100? I'm much faster than I've ever been so in new territory for me. Also switching to the Qi35 so the calculus changes there as well. 

T1100 is straight up rebar, lol, but stable.  If you can get over the feel, it may work well for you.  TR black is similar to T1100 but at least if has some feel.  If you like the OG black in terms of performance but want more feel, Velo+ black is the way to go.  

[sevee33]

Seller says neither of these are tipped (HD & IZ). Is that possible? I wonder why the logo is in different position.

[Garney17]

On 2/25/2025 at 1:58 AM, Qegurezi said:

 

Tiger Woods tipped his DI6 1.5". He tips his VF as well. I have never taken any notice of advice not to tip the driver (maybe the nunchuk rung true for no tipping) and the pro's certainly don't either. 

Good to know! Thanks!!

[Golf Pig]

On 2/24/2025 at 11:58 PM, Qegurezi said:

Tiger Woods tipped his DI6 1.5". He tips his VF as well. I have never taken any notice of advice not to tip the driver (maybe the nunchuk rung true for no tipping) and the pro's certainly don't either. 

 

Perhaps GD recommends not tipping because their shafts get stiffer toward the tip. You'd actually be making the tip softer than designed.

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/technical-stuff/tipping-golf-shaft/

[BigtimeHC]

Very intrigued by the GC after watching some videos and reading back through this thread. Anybody committed to playing it so far?

[Golf Pig]

On 2/27/2025 at 7:11 AM, sevee33 said:

Seller says neither of these are tipped (HD & IZ). Is that possible? I wonder why the logo is in different position.

 

The IZ definitely looks tipped to me. I'm not sure off hand of the distance from the tip to the "accuracy and distance" graphic, but both of these shafts have a measurement of 24 3/4" from the tip to the first ring. I'd ask the seller to provide that info.

[Golfrnut]

8 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

Perhaps GD recommends not tipping because their shafts get stiffer toward the tip. You'd actually be making the tip softer than designed.

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/technical-stuff/tipping-golf-shaft/

 

They actually do not.  The issue is that some OEMs have been arbitrarily tipping some shafts without any real merit.  The BBTG measurement in most adjustable heads is no different than other fixed heads these days.  It's how the manufacturer has designed them to play.  Many moons ago, some OEMs used to suggest tipping to replicate the smaller hosel necks that some of the older blind bore and bore-thru heads had since more of the shaft tip was exposed above the head.  It's not really the case any longer.  They were honestly just doing their own thing and completely ignoring OEM's recommendations.  All the shafts like the DI will get stiffer as they are tipped.  It's why they recommend tipping progressively as you go to the fairway woods, etc.  Drivers start at none, 3 woods 1/5", etc.

[Qegurezi]

8 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

Perhaps GD recommends not tipping because their shafts get stiffer toward the tip. You'd actually be making the tip softer than designed.

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/technical-stuff/tipping-golf-shaft/

Tipping doesn't make the shaft softer. 

[Pnwpingi210]

Anybody know any info on the ad protos garywoodland is playing in driver and mini driver?

 

it looks like a xc, but it’s some sort of tx proto.  He was playing it both woods this week.  (His witb shows the Accra still in driver but wasn’t gaming it)

[sevee33]

On 2/28/2025 at 10:17 PM, Golf Pig said:

 

The IZ definitely looks tipped to me. I'm not sure off hand of the distance from the tip to the "accuracy and distance" graphic, but both of these shafts have a measurement of 24 3/4" from the tip to the first ring. I'd ask the seller to provide that info.

Ok thanks!

[Golf Pig]

On 2/28/2025 at 9:52 PM, Golfrnut said:

All the shafts like the DI will get stiffer as they are tipped.

 

On 2/28/2025 at 10:15 PM, Qegurezi said:

Tipping doesn't make the shaft softer.

 

The EI curves of the DI and VF turn upward from 11" toward the tip. When you tip these shafts you are removing stiffness from the tip, thus making the tip softer. Russ' article that I linked to above explains it better than I can. The UB has a similar EI curve at the tip. Using Tom Wishon's profile methodology I measured the frequency of my 7S both before and after tipping 1/2" as recommended by GD for installation in my 3 wood. At 11 inches the CPM was 884 with no tipping and 878 after tipping 1/2" - confirming that tipping it made the tip softer.

 

The overall stiffness of the shaft might feel different in your hands depending on the EI curve at the butt end.

 

My point is that you better know the bend profile of the shaft you are tipping because it might have the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. In the case of GD shafts if you are trying to get a shaft to play stiffer you're probably better off moving up a flex.

Edited March 2 by Golf Pig

[Golf Pig]

On 2/27/2025 at 7:11 AM, sevee33 said:

Seller says neither of these are tipped (HD & IZ). Is that possible? I wonder why the logo is in different position.

 

I took some measurements and it should be 4-3/4" from the tip of the shaft (not the tip of adapter) to the start of the "AD" graphic:

 

 

[Golfrnut]

3 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

 

The EI curves of the DI and VF turn upward from 11" toward the tip. When you tip these shafts you are removing stiffness from the tip, thus making the tip softer. Russ' article that I linked to above explains it better than I can. The UB has a similar EI curve at the tip. Using Tom Wishon's profile methodology I measured the frequency of my 7S both before and after tipping 1/2" as recommended by GD for installation in my 3 wood. At 11 inches the CPM was 884 with no tipping and 878 after tipping 1/2" - confirming that tipping it made the tip softer.

 

The overall stiffness of the shaft might feel different in your hands depending on the EI curve at the butt end.

 

My point is that you better know the bend profile of the shaft you are tipping because it might have the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. In the case of GD shafts if you are trying to get a shaft to play stiffer you're probably better off moving up a flex.

 

I'm going to go ahead at start off by saying 884 vs 878 is well within the probability of error when you are measuring the tip section of the shaft.  It's also a negligible measurement.  It doesn't say anything.

 

 

For two.  Cool Clubs example of the DI.  Reference whole CPM as they are not trying to reinvent the wheel here with measurements in different spots or with different beam lengths.  Total FCM goes up.  You are shortening beam length and moving the entire shaft profile, not just a zone of it.  This is exactly what the purpose of tipping is for.  It's not 'playing' softer.

 

 

For three, GD recommends tipping just like almost every other OEM out there does when head weight goes up, in half inch increments, to account for the increased head weight to make the shaft play as designed.

Edited March 3 by Golfrnut

[Golf Pig]

34 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

I'm going to go ahead at start off by saying 884 vs 878 is well within the probability of error when you are measuring the tip section of the shaft.  It's also a negligible measurement.  It doesn't say anything.

I’m not going to let anyone speculate and critique my testing methodology. It’s not just a one off measurement. Other GD shafts I’ve tested show the same thing.

 

35 minutes ago, Golfrnut said:

You are shortening beam length and moving the entire shaft profile, not just a zone of it.  This is exactly what the purpose of tipping is for.  It's not 'playing' softer.

Exactly. You’re moving the EI curve to the right. By doing so you’re removing the stiffest part of the tip in the case of the DI and other GD shafts. This results in a softer tip. Note my wording I didn’t say the entire shaft.

 

By all means everyone should tip their GD drivers just because Tiger does it. Your stiff shaft will magically turn into a TX.

[Golfrnut]

1 hour ago, Golf Pig said:

I’m not going to let anyone speculate and critique my testing methodology. It’s not just a one off measurement. Other GD shafts I’ve tested show the same thing.

 

Exactly. You’re moving the EI curve to the right. By doing so you’re removing the stiffest part of the tip in the case of the DI and other GD shafts. This results in a softer tip. Note my wording I didn’t say the entire shaft.

 

By all means everyone should tip their GD drivers just because Tiger does it. Your stiff shaft will magically turn into a TX.

 

 

I said 'within probability of error'.   That includes equipment.  Again, 8 CPM is less than 1% and well within error of margin....don't care who is doing it.  That involves equipment accuracy, clamping pressure, etc.  

 

And there are GD EI profiles littered all through this thread.  They all trend the same, and none of them show what you are claiming to be true.  There is good reason none of them go to the zero line at the tip, and they certainly don't show what you say they do because that's not the part they are able to accurately show. Saying you are removing the stiffer part is in no way factual as no one measures out to those data points.  You are misunderstanding what you are seeing in the EI profiles.  There's a reason CC uses butt CPM.  Everything beyond the last measurement point is unknown.  That's anywhere from 4-6 inches.  That's the facts of it.

 

 

Edited March 3 by Golfrnut

[Golf Pig]

1 hour ago, Golfrnut said:

You are misunderstanding what you are seeing in the EI profiles.  There's a reason CC uses butt CPM.

 

So I guess Russ Ryden's EI profiles are completely wrong and we're back to equating shaft stiffness solely with butt CPM. Here's some bend profile data from 2 of my GD shafts measured with my Auditor Reference Frequency Analyzer that has a torque limiting clamp so the clamping pressure is the same every time.

 

Butt frequency at 46" raw untipped shafts with a 205 gram tip weight

 

UB 6S - 257.26 CPM

CQ 6S - 264.40 CPM

 

So I guess we can conclude that the CQ is stiffer than the UB. Because it's stiffer I'll be hitting it lower too.

 

I'm a big fan of Cool Clubs by the way and I used to subscribe to their S3 database until they made it hard to afford for the casual clubmaker. In their data you posted for the DI (which looks to be a screen shot from the video I linked to below), note that the launch angle went up slightly as it was tipped. Seems to me the tip was getting a bit softer. It's also not surprising that the butt CPM went up because according to it's EI curve the stiffness is curving upward at the butt end. Remember that we're shifting the curve to the right so the butt is now stiffer than an untipped shaft.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_PMFYsAATw

 

Listen to them at 16:35 talking about the Ventus Blue 8. Even though the FM goes up, you're removing the stiffest part of the tip and launch angle goes up the more it's tipped. Also note that some of the shafts featured in that video didn't show a change in butt stiffness or "S3 playability" either.

 

Once again the point I'm ultimately trying to make (Cool Clubs did as well) is that every shaft is different when it comes to tipping. You can't make a blanket statement that it will get stiffer and launch lower.

 

[Golfrnut]

8 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

So I guess Russ Ryden's EI profiles are completely wrong and we're back to equating shaft stiffness solely with butt CPM. Here's some bend profile data from 2 of my GD shafts measured with my Auditor Reference Frequency Analyzer that has a torque limiting clamp so the clamping pressure is the same every time.

 

Butt frequency at 46" raw untipped shafts with a 205 gram tip weight

 

UB 6S - 257.26 CPM

CQ 6S - 264.40 CPM

 

So I guess we can conclude that the CQ is stiffer than the UB. Because it's stiffer I'll be hitting it lower too.[/quote] 

 

You are more than welcome to go off the deep end and be overly dramatic on this.  Your choice.  But you are miles out and trying to imply things I never said or came close to saying.  
 

 

8 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

I'm a big fan of Cool Clubs by the way and I used to subscribe to their S3 database until they made it hard to afford for the casual clubmaker. In their data you posted for the DI (which looks to be a screen shot from the video I linked to below), note that the launch angle went up slightly as it was tipped. Seems to me the tip was getting a bit softer. It's also not surprising that the butt CPM went up because according to it's EI curve the stiffness is curving upward at the butt end. Remember that we're shifting the curve to the right so the butt is now stiffer than an untipped shaft.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_PMFYsAATw

 

The entire profile is sliding when we talk zones.  ‘Seems’ is an assumption.  And like everything else, there’s allowable error involved.  They are giving you averages, from a monitor, not absolutes. 
 

Butt CPM is not measuring just the butt, its looking at the entire profile.  The entire profile is a contributor.  The entire profile contributes to launch angle.  The deflection comes from whole parts of the shaft, not little ones of a few inches.  That’s not how the profile charts were designed to work or what they were designed to show.  People are trying to turn them into something they are not. 
 

When we talk tip sections. This isn’t really a question of the tip being the stiffest part. The part that is tipped normally is the same part that normally resides within the head. Its a non-factor in play. They could make it out of completely solid graphite, doesn't matter.  You are shifting the profile, moving part of the higher tip section, which are stiffer, in the great majority, but not all…lower into the tip section. GD is no exception to this.  Russ shows a representation of that in his charts in the link you posted.  This is the norm.  You are trying to pick out ‘inches’ within a shaft profile, and that’s not how they should be judged. This is one of the dangers of how they get misrepresented by people. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Golf Pig said:

 

Listen to them at 16:35 talking about the Ventus Blue 8. Even though the FM goes up, you're removing the stiffest part of the tip and launch angle goes up the more it's tipped. Also note that some of the shafts featured in that video didn't show a change in butt stiffness or "S3 playability" either.

 

Once again the point I'm ultimately trying to make (Cool Clubs did as well) is that every shaft is different when it comes to tipping. You can't make a blanket statement that it will get stiffer and launch lower.

 

I never made that statement did I?  You remarked on GD stafts.  I replied specifically, and with specifics that they do not. There was never a blanket statement involved so the only substance there is you trying to turn it into one. 
 

It’s not uncommon at all for tipping to sometimes result in little to no movement on a CPM scale.  Or it can literally spike up with 3/8” tip trim and go back down the next time you trim it 3/8”.  That’s why in order to do it without just being arbitrary cutting, it has to be done incrementally and with a scale. Two on the same exact shafts can require different tipping amounts to hit the same CPM. Anyone who’s done work with P tipped shafts and a target CPM understands that all too well. 

[Mitchell]

After testing a few options, finally settled on HD 7s in driver and VR 8s in fairway, personally do well with heavier overall club weight throughout set. 

[Qegurezi]

On 3/3/2025 at 8:03 AM, Golf Pig said:

 

 

The EI curves of the DI and VF turn upward from 11" toward the tip. When you tip these shafts you are removing stiffness from the tip, thus making the tip softer. Russ' article that I linked to above explains it better than I can. The UB has a similar EI curve at the tip. Using Tom Wishon's profile methodology I measured the frequency of my 7S both before and after tipping 1/2" as recommended by GD for installation in my 3 wood. At 11 inches the CPM was 884 with no tipping and 878 after tipping 1/2" - confirming that tipping it made the tip softer.

 

The overall stiffness of the shaft might feel different in your hands depending on the EI curve at the butt end.

 

My point is that you better know the bend profile of the shaft you are tipping because it might have the opposite effect of what you are trying to achieve. In the case of GD shafts if you are trying to get a shaft to play stiffer you're probably better off moving up a flex.

 

I've tipped a dozen or so GD shafts and every one in hand has played stiffer. Tiger Woods tipped all his GD's just like he tipped his whiteboards and blueboards. 

 

Tipping makes the shaft play stiffer. 

[Ty_Guy]

Graphite Design lovers, I want to try a GD driver shaft. Looking for a recommended starting point.

 

I have the AD DI in my 7w and it is quickly becoming one of my favorite clubs. In driver, I've always used an LA Golf shaft. Bryson series has been my favorite. Though, I see it has about the exact opposite Tip/Mid/Butt stiffness bend as the AD DI. I'm a little flummoxed my 7W swing could be so different than my driver swing. I know with putters, a 90 degree toe hang and 0 degree toe hang will work equally well for players into that style. Are the opposite profiles in driver shaft the same thing, just solving the same problem from opposite ends?

 

Anyhoo, I love the AD DI in the 7w. Should I start there with driver or start with something else?

Edited March 6 by Ty_Guy