Weaken lofts or get fitted for new clubs as beginner mid hcp?

[Brokensticks]

Hello, first poster here asking for advice as I cant make up my mind. 
 

Im a beginner golfer with 12 months experience and mid hcp player at 14.

 

I really love this game (and hate obviously) and would like to get great results but I cant make up my mind regarding club fitting, if this would be beneficial or a waste because my swing is and has been going thru changes. 
 

Today I have a used set of MP-64 and while I love the sound, feel and the looks, hitting a 4-5 iron from the rough is pretty tough. Another thing is that I pratice ball striking and I get the feeling that if I touch the ground I get the sensation of the club almost sticking to the ground instead of going thru the turf. 
 

My options are either to weak-loft the clubs by 2* to get some extra bounce and remove a wedge and fill out the gap on top

 

Or, bite the bullet and get fitted. 
 

My concern about fitting is also the same thing fitters list as top reason to get fitted. ”Get a club that fits your swing” but if my swing changes big time over lets say 6 months, the clubs are going to be sub par?

[ShortGolfer]

I got fitted after a year and found it to be a great experience.  

Like you, I was uncertain about whether it was the right time.

Because of my busy rose growing schedule I was only able to play three rounds of nine holes before the fitting.

Before that I had an 8 month winter season layoff from golf.  Only practicing in my back yard.

My fitter had no difficulty fitting me!  We quickly realized when a club wasn't right for me.

We were both surprised I could hit a 3W off the deck as I'm a slow swinger, but that is what TrackMan is for!

Unless you are an adolescent kid you aren't going to get any taller.  

 

You could pay up front for a fitting and not buy any clubs until you have another fitting.

There are two ways to pay for a fitting.  One is to buy club clubs and have the fitting fee discounted or waived entirely if you buy enough.

The other is to pay for  it with no expectation of a purchase.  You and the fitter should be clear on how you want to handle this monetary transaction.

 

Since the fitting I've used the knowledge I've gained to fit my old clubs better, shortening them to the fitters spec.

I did a lot of experimentation and had an odd mix of clubs.  It was great for learning but not so good for playing.

My 7 iron was my "go to club" but the Recoil shaft didn't match anything else in the set. 

I sort of knew that and bought a Mavrik Max 7 iron to replace it for $50 over the winter, but it took the fitting for me to make the swap.

It is much easier playing a matched set of clubs and I noticed that in my last round of golf.

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[Zena]

Welcome to the forums!

 

MP64s are already traditionally lofted and very low offset. I would highly warn against weakening the lofts with these.

 

Get lessons if you haven’t already, and bite the bullet to get fit. Unless you are practicing purposefully 20-30 hours a week, I would not expect you to make swing changes significant enough to make the irons such a poor fit that you’d need to change again so soon. Mid to high handicaps actually stand to gain the most from a fitting, I can guarantee your swing is more consistent than you think.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Zena

[Brokensticks]

54 minutes ago, Zena said:

Welcome to the forums!

 

MP64s are already traditionally lofted and very low offset. I would highly warn against weakening the lofts with these.

 

Get lessons if you haven’t already, and bite the bullet to get fit. Unless you are practicing purposefully 20-30 hours a week, I would not expect you to make swing changes significant enough to make the irons such a poor fit that you’d need to change again so soon. Mid to high handicaps actually stand to gain the most from a fitting, I can guarantee your swing is more consistent than you think.

Whats the negative side of weaking the lofts? I tried 7-8-9 +1 and it feels pretty nice and I can drop one approach club that is only used for full swings anyway. 
 

I actually practice alot, 1-2h every day and atleast 2x 18 holes per week and the past 6 months I have picked up 15% SS and gone from over the top, outside to inside with a mandatory slice and today its inside to out with a baby draw. Most probably I wont make this evolution again as it feels and looks way more in the ballpark of correct swing.

 

How would something like T100 and ZX7 compare foregiveness wise to the ones I have?

 

Lessons is great and all that but Ive been with 3 pga coaches and all of them says I need to work of different things. Unless its a very serious one that videos the sessions and gives a visual representation to what a desired swing should look like for me Im not putting more money down that line. 

[phizzy30]

26 minutes ago, Brokensticks said:

Whats the negative side of weaking the lofts? I tried 7-8-9 +1 and it feels pretty nice and I can drop one approach club that is only used for full swings anyway. 
 

I actually practice alot, 1-2h every day and atleast 2x 18 holes per week and the past 6 months I have picked up 15% SS and gone from over the top, outside to inside with a mandatory slice and today its inside to out with a baby draw. Most probably I wont make this evolution again as it feels and looks way more in the ballpark of correct swing.

 

How would something like T100 and ZX7 compare foregiveness wise to the ones I have?

 

Lessons is great and all that but Ive been with 3 pga coaches and all of them says I need to work of different things. Unless its a very serious one that videos the sessions and gives a visual representation to what a desired swing should look like for me Im not putting more money down that line. 

Looks like you've made some significant swing changes so it's probably a good time to get fitted for some irons.  The T100 and ZX7 were a bit more forgiving for me than the MP-64 when I tested them.  Also try and demo the Apex TCB irons.  I thought those were the best of bunch in terms of modern players CB irons in terms of feel, dispersion and flight for me. 

[GirlDadGolfer0204]

Can I ask a question. You’ve been golfing for 12 months. You went from an over the top / outside to in with a bad slice to hitting baby draws? And your saying the pga pros didn’t help? Cause I’ve been golfing alittle less than a year. I’m not terrible. But it seems alittle off. So my question is how’d you go from over the top to baby draws and you just picked up clubs a year ago? I mean 🤔 sure it could be done but I’m lost for words. Please tell me your secret. And about your question a place like club champion will fit you for your swing but you need to have an open dialogue tell them how fast you’ve progressed and that you might be going to Q school next year. Lol but seriously, if you tell your fitter you practice X amount of hours and play X amount of times a week they’ll fit you into something you can “grow” with . Also idk about other fitter but with Club Champion you can go back 3 times and meet with your fitter to see if you need loft and lies adjusted. Also If they fit you and 2 months later you happen to gain even move club head speed and the shafts are no longer working they’ll put you in something more suitable. I no at the beginning I sounded sarcastic or whatever. Maybe to me what you said sounds to good to be true, maybe I’m just jealous cause my game hasn’t improved that quickly and i am an athlete and an army vet. But I’d like to know how you improved your swing that quickly. Please 🙏

[bnperrone]

Mizunos are generally low bounce. I spent about 25 years in a few different sets of them. Great clubs, but that might not suit you terribly well. That said, lofts are already fairly traditional AKA weak by modern standards.

 

Long irons are not easy for most players to hit well. A degree or two of loft isn't a silver bullet for that. 

 

T100 and ZX7 irons are phenomenal clubs, and anybody can play anything they like, but it doesn't mean they're right for you. ZX7s in particular are known to be lower spinning heads. That might not mesh with what you've got going on. 

 

Given that you've made the kind of major swing change you describe, now is probably a great time to get fit. I'd go out and talk to some fitters, describe where you're at, and see who is most in line with your thinking and your progress.  

 

On the plus side, there's now a world of information available both in terms of data and opinion (forums) and there's also a ton of options with huge variations of every element of equipment. The things that work on paper or in theory quite often don't work that way in real life, so getting expert outside help is crucial. You'll probably have a tendency to lock onto one aspect at a time, only to find out that other variables are still at play. Best of luck to you and your progress.

[Brokensticks]

2 hours ago, GirlDadGolfer0204 said:

Can I ask a question. You’ve been golfing for 12 months. You went from an over the top / outside to in with a bad slice to hitting baby draws? And your saying the pga pros didn’t help? Cause I’ve been golfing alittle less than a year. I’m not terrible. But it seems alittle off. So my question is how’d you go from over the top to baby draws and you just picked up clubs a year ago? I mean 🤔 sure it could be done but I’m lost for words. Please tell me your secret. And about your question a place like club champion will fit you for your swing but you need to have an open dialogue tell them how fast you’ve progressed and that you might be going to Q school next year. Lol but seriously, if you tell your fitter you practice X amount of hours and play X amount of times a week they’ll fit you into something you can “grow” with . Also idk about other fitter but with Club Champion you can go back 3 times and meet with your fitter to see if you need loft and lies adjusted. Also If they fit you and 2 months later you happen to gain even move club head speed and the shafts are no longer working they’ll put you in something more suitable. I no at the beginning I sounded sarcastic or whatever. Maybe to me what you said sounds to good to be true, maybe I’m just jealous cause my game hasn’t improved that quickly and i am an athlete and an army vet. But I’d like to know how you improved your swing that quickly. Please 🙏

No worry. Ive been into sports since I was a kid and even when right handed I always held a club like a ”lefty”, same as right handed golfers so years of hockey and floorball is probably making it easier, many things are the same idea of how you ”swing” the clubs. 
 

Other than that the only secret is practice alot - with a purpose. 
 

I usually look at youtube then I take it to the range. Not hitting ball after ball but trying to feel and exaggerate the things Im working on, for now its the hip thrust to ensure ball first divot later. 
 

Basicly that movement has enabled me to hit the draws. You get alot of space to work from the inside. 
 

Kerrod Gray Golf (small channel) and Eric Cogorno got lots of great drills for this. Practice them at home, practice without balls with the club and accept it can take a few buckets to adjust for big changes.

 

About the PGA pros, its more about that they have different ideas and you need to find a match (Guessing here). One told me I got a good swing but need to work on the follow thru, the other one told me I should stand further from the ball by stretching my arms more and the last one wanted to change the back swing. 

 

Maybe they all try to achieve the same thing but when an hour on 80$ i dont even want to think about this, I want a clear plan with a goal. 
 

Watching live lessons is the best for me as you see the work in progress and you can start to analyze your own swing by watching them drawing lines as ”checkpoints”.

 

best of luck to you friend

[ShortGolfer]

After a year of practicing I've done even better.  I have a consistent swing and have learned enough course management to hit the Par 4 greens in regulation on my short executive course!  And the Par 3s in two if I play them intelligently instead of trying to pin hunt tiny greens.  Lob wedges are made for tiny greens!

On my 2nd round of the new season I had five bogeys or better and four blow up holes.  With an odd set of clubs!

My work schedule allows me to go home and practice in my back yard during lunch time.  When the weather is nice I can scatter in short practice sessions throughout the day between my work and gardening chores!  My yard isn't quite big enough to practice driver, but I realized it was cheaper to lose a bunch of foam  balls in the poison ivy infested understory than to drive to the range.  Now that I'm watching driver ball flights I'm dialing that in quite quickly.

Edited July 19, 2022 by ShortGolfer

[colesdad2]

Congrats on your improvement and dedication to practice.  I'll weigh in on my experience with coaches.  Many years ago my wife bought me a series of lessons from the #1 rated pro in California.  I took 1 of the 3 lessons.  He was an @$$ and we just didn't mesh.  I ended up taking lessons off and on for years from a kid at Arroyo Seco par 3 course in Pasadena.  He was 6'3" and I'm 5'7", at least ten years younger than me, but he just "got" my swing and we clicked.

 

3 years ago I came back after a 5-year break and got very frustrated very quickly.  Took two sessions with a top instructor - a guy my age, Senior Open qualifier - to get me straightened out.  Best $$ I've ever spent on golf.

 

I know your post is about fitting, but my point is don't give up on instruction.  And you're definitely good enough to invest in clubs tailored to your game.

[Stuart_G]

9 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

My concern about fitting is also the same thing fitters list as top reason to get fitted. ”Get a club that fits your swing” but if my swing changes big time over lets say 6 months, the clubs are going to be sub par?

 

The vast majority of the fitting specs do not change as the swing changes or develops.  Mostly it's about fitting for your personal sense of rhythm and timing and preference for feel that gives you feedback about what you're doing in the swing - and that will rarely change.

 

So what playing length, shaft weight, what grip, what swing weight, what head model works well for you - all will usually stay the same as you.   And those are the more important specs anyways to get a good fit early on in the process.

 

If you make significant improvements in swing speed AND also if you are very sensitive to the stiffness feel then shaft stiffness might need to change.  But most are not that sensitive or just don't get big swing speed changes - so usually it's not going to be a problem

 

If your posture changes you might have to tweak the lie angles - but that's easy to check and monitor yourself - you don't need to get refit.

 

As your delivery changes, you may need to keep track of distance gaps and then have the lofts tweaked - although more typically the changes will be fairly uniform through the set so even that will probably not be needed.

 

No the bigger problem is finding a good fitter to get properly fit.   The vast majority of people who call themselves fitters really are not qualified to do a full comprehensive fitting.    Many find it easier to fit themselves - once they understand all that's involved.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Zena]

7 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Whats the negative side of weaking the lofts? I tried 7-8-9 +1 and it feels pretty nice and I can drop one approach club that is only used for full swings anyway. 
 

I actually practice alot, 1-2h every day and atleast 2x 18 holes per week and the past 6 months I have picked up 15% SS and gone from over the top, outside to inside with a mandatory slice and today its inside to out with a baby draw. Most probably I wont make this evolution again as it feels and looks way more in the ballpark of correct swing.

 

How would something like T100 and ZX7 compare foregiveness wise to the ones I have?

 

Lessons is great and all that but Ive been with 3 pga coaches and all of them says I need to work of different things. Unless its a very serious one that videos the sessions and gives a visual representation to what a desired swing should look like for me Im not putting more money down that line. 

 

Bending them weak will do a few things. As you said it will increase bounce. It will also increase launch, increase spin and reduce offset. Don’t know if you want all of those to happen.

 

Others have commented on the comparison. I haven’t hit an MP64 (small cavity back), but I can compare them to my MP18s (pure blade).

 

MP18 as a baseline: Traditional loft, minimal offset. Super soft out of the middle, jarring on mishits. Small sweet spot, lose about 5-10yd on mishits. Not so forgiving (1/10). Typical forged blade.

 

T100: Not as soft out the middle feel, less jarring on mishits, just the tiniest bit clicky to me. A bit bigger sweet spot, lose a couple yards on mishits. Wider sole, more offset. More forgiving all around (3/10).

 

ZX7: Super soft out of the middle, very nice feel on mishits, no clickiness here. Underrated forged iron. Bigger sweet spot than the T100. More offset than the Mp18, has the unique V-sole. Forgiveness 3.5/10.

 

Lots of people like the T100/T100s. I didn’t particularly enjoy them. I’d rather play MP223/225 or the ZX7s. If you were going that route and wanted to save some money, lots of used Z785/765 can be had for cheap.

 

Love to see the driven improvement. I’m much the same, large improvement over the last year but I have a friend who is a plus hcp help me out. It sounds like you have come close to your personal ideal swing and it won’t be major changes from here on out, just tweaks here and there. @Stuart_G is a goat and he’s on the money.

 

Sounds like you haven’t found the right coach, and honestly I’d never give money or get a lesson with a coach without talking to them first and seeing what their philosophies are. I just settled on a coach, he does everything you say you need so they definitely exist. Once you find a coach you mesh well with that is in line with what you want, committing to multiple lessons will help them formulate a long term improvement plan with you as well. Hate to see you write it off, but seems like you’re doing well on your own right now. When you hit a plateau in improvement (we all do at some point, even the pros), that sounds like a good time to revisit finding a great coach.

[Ger21]

4 hours ago, GirlDadGolfer0204 said:

Can I ask a question. You’ve been golfing for 12 months. You went from an over the top / outside to in with a bad slice to hitting baby draws? And your saying the pga pros didn’t help? Cause I’ve been golfing a little less than a year. I’m not terrible. But it seems a little off. So my question is how’d you go from over the top to baby draws and you just picked up clubs a year ago?

 

From my experience, it's all about finding the right teacher, and being able to do what he tells you.

My friends and I started playing after high school, in the mid 80's. No YouTube, or internet to teach you. We all sucked, regularly shooting around 100. One day, I decided to take a lesson at the crappy driving range by the house. In 30 minutes, I went from spraying the ball all over, with lots of topped and fat shots, to flushed baby draws, even with long irons. And playing blades too!

Minor grip change, and changing the takeaway, and how to start the swing, and everything just clicked.

[jomatty]

Get fit.  Bending mp64’s weak seems a very random way to try to get better results.  Sure a little more bounce may help, but it may not.  We don’t know enough about your swing to even guess.  It is safe to say that it is very unlikely you need more loft than they already have.

when you get fit, keep an open mind.  It seems unlikely to me that you will be fit into t100’s or something similar as a 14 hcp who has been playing a year.  I’m a 3 handicap and while I found the t100’s to be very nice, something like the Mizuno 223 or the Mizuno 225’s (which I’m in now) is much more comforatable.  When I was a 14 I would have wanted at least something the size of the 225’s.  
Just my opinion and I realize this is WRX where we all like sexy irons, but if your struggling out of the rough with a 4 and 5 iron why not get an iron that will give you some help doing so.  Just my opinion but randomly bending a set of irons with traditional loft rather than getting a set that is better suited to your abilities seems a bad way to go about it.

good luck!

[Aviador Naval]

Congrats on the rapid progress and welcome to WRX.  A couple thoughts…

 

Would like to emphasize the point made by @Stuart_G that your basic specs are likely to change little.  Many years ago, with the help of a good instructor and a bunch of practice, I transitioned from a playably consistent high wipey fade to a med-high slight draw and all that changed in my specs was a slight tweak in lie angles.

 

Regarding MP64, I played a set one year.  Great club but as others have suggested they have low effective bounce and if you tend toward steep and/or play in soft conditions, they like to dig.

 

As you’re getting along well with the mid-size cavity back, I’d suggest keeping and eye out for used 714 or 718 AP2s or consider ZX7.  The AP2s will launch and spin a bit higher than the Srixons - the ZX7 feel a bit better.  All three have generous bounce and/or camber and will assist your current ‘digging’ issue.  The 714 AP2 is easily the most forgiving mid-sized club ever produced and the 718 and ZX7 aren’t too far behind.  All three are easily adjusted for a couple bucks per club should you need to refine them as you move forward.