LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[golfday]

Hi All - I'm looking for an article analyzing how many points a LIV event would be worth based on it's strength of field and field size if it were included in the ranking system. I think that I saw one linked in this thread but can't find it, and can't find it through googling either. Does anyone have one or know where it might be?

 

From what I recall the points would be really low mainly due to the weight the formula puts on field size, and secondarily due to the weak back half of the LIV event fields (although this part could easily change if they keep getting the right players).

[ahenderX]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If you read the PGA Tour guidelines, foreign-born players are able to play as many events on their "home" tour as they want, without requiring releases. 

 

This is of course different than the 15-event requirement from the PGA Tour and the two shouldn't be conflated.

 

But as long as Hideki met his 15-event requirement, he can play every other week of the year on the Japan tour without causing any issues with his PGA Tour membership.

The PGA Tour 15-event minimum only applies to players who want voting privileges. Other than this, I’m not aware of any other minimum event requirement.

[Gregakin]

2 hours ago, mitchl said:

exactly.    His dad is a PGA professional and I think his coach.   Cam Young going would be really weird.   

 

And if we are to believe the other stuff…. Hidecki is going for $400m, and Cam Smith is going for $100m.  
I know that you have to throw logic out when dealing with LIV which has no workable business case, but there is something wrong with those deals…. Or they aren’t real. 

Delta of contracts must be detrimental to LIV in the end. Hope it's true and these guys start looking at each other and the jealousy kicks in.  Whoever wins the FEDEX Cup should try and break the bank. Leak it they would sign for $500M because they are the Champion (sorry, Perez). 

 

 

[smashdn]

2 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

If you read the PGA Tour guidelines, foreign-born players are able to play as many events on their "home" tour as they want, without requiring releases. 

 

This is of course different than the 15-event requirement from the PGA Tour and the two shouldn't be conflated.

 

But as long as Hideki met his 15-event requirement, he can play every other week of the year on the Japan tour without causing any issues with his PGA Tour membership.

 

Not conflating the two, just a hypothetical where he elects not to play any PGAT events and does not meet the 15 event minimum.  Is he able to then come back (through the proper procedures) without suspension?

 

I again think it is interesting that the PGAT seems and is very accommodating to players who play different events on different tours, just not LIV Golf events.  This seemed especially at odds with their prior actions for the London event, as it was not being held in North America.  I seem to recall there is/was a provision about other tour events not held on NA soil in the PGAT guidelines.

[physasst]

Ya gotta love Billy Horschel....

 

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/billy-horschel-calls-out-brainwashed-liv-golf-players-says-pga-tour-vindicated-court-ruling

 

M

[mitchl]

1 hour ago, golfday said:

Hi All - I'm looking for an article analyzing how many points a LIV event would be worth based on it's strength of field and field size if it were included in the ranking system. I think that I saw one linked in this thread but can't find it, and can't find it through googling either. Does anyone have one or know where it might be?

 

From what I recall the points would be really low mainly due to the weight the formula puts on field size, and secondarily due to the weak back half of the LIV event fields (although this part could easily change if they keep getting the right players).

look at @datagolf on twitter

 

 

it’s affected by field size, because with 1/3 the number of players, there are just fewer players to add to the strength.    But as you say the back half is weak.   As well.  The players ranked 100 and over are not adding to the strength, so you’ve got about 20 players which really contribute to field strength.

 

it would be interest8ng to know what’s the comparison of old formula vs new.   I think the new formula may benefit LIV.    The top 10 in The PGA really added a huge amount to the strength, for example on the old formula, getting Scottie in there was like getting 4 DJs.    Now Scotty is only like 2 DJs.    

Edited August 11, 2022 by mitchl

[betarhoalphadelta]

58 minutes ago, ahenderX said:

The PGA Tour 15-event minimum only applies to players who want voting privileges. Other than this, I’m not aware of any other minimum event requirement.

 

Thanks. I've been wondering about that. I didn't seem to find any 15-event minimum in the 2019-20 handbook other than voting privileges. So I guess as long as you can get enough points to keep your card, you're good to go?

 

That said, the 2019-20 handbook does seem to state that you need to maintain 15 events to go play on your home tour... (Link: appears on p. 128.)
 

Quote

 

d. Golf tournaments on the “home circuit” of a foreign player who is a PGA TOUR member.

 

NOTE: “Home circuit” is defined as the recognized professional golf tournament circuit which plays all or some portion of its schedule in the country of which the player is a citizen. Such foreign PGA TOUR member shall be eligible for this “home circuit” exception to provisions of these Regulations with regard to conflicting tournaments provided he has played, or committed to play, in a minimum of 15 PGA TOUR cosponsored or approved tournaments (as defined in paragraph C of Article I) in the season, or in the case of a Regular Member or Life Member (as defined in Section A.1 and 4 of this Article IX) who is age 45 or more and has made 150 cuts or more in tournaments awarding official prize money in his career, in a minimum of 12 PGA TOUR cosponsored or approved tournaments in the season. (See Section D-2 of Article IX, Membership Reinstatement Provisions.) In addition, a player who has played regularly on a recognized professional golf tournament circuit (i.e., meets membership requirements) for the past five seasons regardless of citizenship may designate this circuit as his “home circuit,” provided he plays in a minimum of 20 PGA TOUR cosponsored or approved tournaments in the season, or in the case of a Regular Member or Life Member (as defined in Section A.1 and 4 of this Article IX) who is age 45 or more and has made 150 cuts or more in tournaments awarding official prize money in his career, in a minimum of 15 PGA TOUR cosponsored or approved tournaments in the season.

 

 

So it appears that if you want to go play on your home tour, you're required to play in 15.

[Obsessed]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scottie-scheffler-cameron-smith-share-170032022.html

 

 

[ahenderX]

1 hour ago, golfday said:

Hi All - I'm looking for an article analyzing how many points a LIV event would be worth based on it's strength of field and field size if it were included in the ranking system. I think that I saw one linked in this thread but can't find it, and can't find it through googling either. Does anyone have one or know where it might be?

 

From what I recall the points would be really low mainly due to the weight the formula puts on field size, and secondarily due to the weak back half of the LIV event fields (although this part could easily change if they keep getting the right players).

For starters, in 2022 LIV has not met a single OWGR requirement other than being sponsored by the Asian Tour. Sponsorship allowed LIV to submit an application. The below article is one of the better ones I have found which details what LIV needs to do to gain OWGR status based on current OWGR requirements.

 

LIV Golf’s application for World Ranking points is in. But the hurdles to earn approval remain numerous

[betarhoalphadelta]

51 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Not conflating the two, just a hypothetical where he elects not to play any PGAT events and does not meet the 15 event minimum.  Is he able to then come back (through the proper procedures) without suspension?

 

I again think it is interesting that the PGAT seems and is very accommodating to players who play different events on different tours, just not LIV Golf events.  This seemed especially at odds with their prior actions for the London event, as it was not being held in North America.  I seem to recall there is/was a provision about other tour events not held on NA soil in the PGAT guidelines.

 

Per above, you must play in 15 if you want to play on your home tour.  

 

I suppose in a hypothetical, if a player decides to "take a year off" and play closer to home and only plays his home tour w/o playing any PGA Tour events. To make the hypothetical more spicy, let's assume that he won a PGA Tour event in the previous year, so he has earned a 2-year PGA Tour exemption and does not need to accrue any FedEx points to maintain Tour status the following year. If the player played zero tournaments, he would be in violation of the rules & regs of the PGA Tour. Potentially that would give the Tour the legal authority to discipline the player if the Tour so chose. 

 

It's such a strange hypothetical that I can only imagine their being some extenuating circumstance that would cause a player to choose such an action. For example the PGA Tour has a provision for Major Medical / Family Crisis / Mandatory Obligation extension to allow a player time away from the Tour. That could be as simple as a player suffering mental illness from homesickness or being away from loved ones, wanting to take a season to spend time closer to home but still wanting to remain engaged in competitive golf to keep their skills sharp. 

 

My expectation is that the PGA Tour would try to find a way to work with a player supposing that there was such an extenuating circumstance, and if the player wanted to be away for a defined time and come back in good standing. 

[mokedaddy]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Not conflating the two, just a hypothetical where he elects not to play any PGAT events and does not meet the 15 event minimum.  Is he able to then come back (through the proper procedures) without suspension?

 

I again think it is interesting that the PGAT seems and is very accommodating to players who play different events on different tours, just not LIV Golf events.  This seemed especially at odds with their prior actions for the London event, as it was not being held in North America.  I seem to recall there is/was a provision about other tour events not held on NA soil in the PGAT guidelines.

A couple years back Jordan missed making the tour championship and didn’t meet the minimum events.  I don’t believe punishment was ever announced.  And it looks like the policy has changed since then.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/jordan-spieth-misses-tour-championship-may-face-fine-or-suspension-by-pga-tour/

 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/24618330/jordan-spieth-faces-fine-suspension-misses-minimum-number-pga-tour-events

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by mokedaddy

[pingbling23]

6 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Maybe, but as the judge said on first glance they exposed fundamental flaws in the players’ case. 

You’re leaving out a crucial word, “POTENTIALLY”.  

[mitchl]

38 minutes ago, mokedaddy said:

A couple years back Jordan missed making the tour championship and didn’t meet the minimum events.  I don’t believe punishment was ever announced.  And it looks like the policy has changed since then.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/jordan-spieth-misses-tour-championship-may-face-fine-or-suspension-by-pga-tour/

 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/24618330/jordan-spieth-faces-fine-suspension-misses-minimum-number-pga-tour-events

 

 

pretty sure that’s changed… that was saying 25 events!   15 is a lot more reasonable.   But it would be hilarious if the PGA changed it to 13 just to mess with the LIVers who went for the play less 14 fixed events where you have no control over the schedule.

[Guest RobS]

7 hours ago, Oneput said:

'Regarding the Section 2 claim that PGA TOUR engaged in unlawful maintenance of a monopoly,...On this claim, as well as the Section 1 claim, the Court acknowledges that TRO Plaintiffs raise significant antitrust issues that are facially appealing. But PGA TOUR has responded with preliminary evidence and argument potentially exposing fundamental flaws in Plaintiffs’ claims. These complex issues are best resolved on a more developed record.'

 

Does PGA Tour face antitrust issues?

 

 

 

 

Not highly likely in this particular case.  Keep in mind that this is a civil suit brought on by 10 players seeking the right to continue playing PGA Tour events along with seeking damages related to their suspensions.  The players are alleging antitrust violations to support their case.  The judge was not particularly receptive during the hearing but there is obviously a long way to go.

 

Independent of this suit, the DOJ is investigating antitrust claims.  If they find evidence of antitrust violations the DOJ could sue the PGA Tour.  Hypothetically speaking, if the DOJ charges the PGA Tour, the process could be years long from start to finish with the potential to settle at any point in the process.

 

The interesting lawsuit would be LIV v PGA Tour but who knows if it that will ever happen, if there is merit or if the Saudis want to be in US court.  My only prediction is that by the time the dust settles on PGA/LIV legal matters, most of us will have lost interest in the topic.

[Potatohead]

1 hour ago, Obsessed said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scottie-scheffler-cameron-smith-share-170032022.html

 

 

 

Flawless.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Obsessed said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scottie-scheffler-cameron-smith-share-170032022.html

 

 

Love it. He said. Bye……! 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Per above, you must play in 15 if you want to play on your home tour.  

 

I suppose in a hypothetical, if a player decides to "take a year off" and play closer to home and only plays his home tour w/o playing any PGA Tour events. To make the hypothetical more spicy, let's assume that he won a PGA Tour event in the previous year, so he has earned a 2-year PGA Tour exemption and does not need to accrue any FedEx points to maintain Tour status the following year. If the player played zero tournaments, he would be in violation of the rules & regs of the PGA Tour. Potentially that would give the Tour the legal authority to discipline the player if the Tour so chose. 

 

It's such a strange hypothetical that I can only imagine their being some extenuating circumstance that would cause a player to choose such an action. For example the PGA Tour has a provision for Major Medical / Family Crisis / Mandatory Obligation extension to allow a player time away from the Tour. That could be as simple as a player suffering mental illness from homesickness or being away from loved ones, wanting to take a season to spend time closer to home but still wanting to remain engaged in competitive golf to keep their skills sharp. 

 

My expectation is that the PGA Tour would try to find a way to work with a player supposing that there was such an extenuating circumstance, and if the player wanted to be away for a defined time and come back in good standing. 

 

Why do you think that is a strange hypothetical situation?  If not a Japanese player than perhaps one from a European country then.  Say Matthew Fitzpatrick.  Maybe he decides to only play DPT events for a year but he likely has some status or exemption due to the US Open win.

 

Or is the strangeness of the hypothetical based upon earnings?  Why would anyone exempt or with status on the PGAT want to play any other tour full time and to the exclusion of the PGAT due to the higher purses?

[bouche03]

1 hour ago, Obsessed said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scottie-scheffler-cameron-smith-share-170032022.html

 

 

That's some bush league antics by Sheffler.  For a guy that is by all accounts respectable and does things the right way, that is a terrible look on him and shows how petty he truly is.  And I hate saying that since I really like him.  

[mokedaddy]

1 hour ago, mitchl said:

pretty sure that’s changed… that was saying 25 events!   15 is a lot more reasonable.   But it would be hilarious if the PGA changed it to 13 just to mess with the LIVers who went for the play less 14 fixed events where you have no control over the schedule.

Yeah I noted it had changed.  I believe it changed right after that and even possibly a catalyst for such change.

 

I think it’s the only example of it happening.

Edited August 11, 2022 by mokedaddy

[pingbling23]

1 hour ago, bouche03 said:

That's some bush league antics by Sheffler.  For a guy that is by all accounts respectable and does things the right way, that is a terrible look on him and shows how petty he truly is.  And I hate saying that since I really like him.  

Originally I thought it was classless as well but it was posted in the other thread that later on Sheffler high fived him after cam hit a good shot so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he accidentally did it.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Why do you think that is a strange hypothetical situation?  If not a Japanese player than perhaps one from a European country then.  Say Matthew Fitzpatrick.  Maybe he decides to only play DPT events for a year but he likely has some status or exemption due to the US Open win.

 

Or is the strangeness of the hypothetical based upon earnings?  Why would anyone exempt or with status on the PGAT want to play any other tour full time and to the exclusion of the PGAT due to the higher purses?

 

I say it's a strange hypothetical situation because if it weren't a strange hypothetical situation I would think we'd have seen players try to do it. 

 

And while earnings are part of it, earnings are only one part of it. The PGA Tour is where you find the highest level of competition. It's where you find the highest strength of field to earn OWGR points to get into the majors. And commensurate with it being the most elite tour, it also has the highest purses, so your reward for playing well is larger than other tours. 

 

If a player prefers the DP World Tour or the Asian Tour or the Japan Tour, why would they come over to the US, earn their Tour card, then decide they want to go play at home for a year (absent some specific family or emotional issue)? Why would they come over here at all just to go back? If they want to play in the odd PGA Tour event without being a member, there are always sponsor exemptions, after all. 

 

Your hypothetical assumes that a player has put their heart into becoming a PGA Tour member, and then decides out of the blue they want to take a year off to play lower competition, for less stakes (OWGR points), for less money. 

 

It's as odd of a hypothetical as a player working their butt off, earning their Tour card coming up from the KFT and suddenly saying "ya know, maybe I'll just hang on the KFT for a year, instead of the PGA Tour." Or someone on an MLB team having the ability and a contract to play in the major leagues and deciding he just wants to drop down to AAA ball for a season. Can you imagine any player actually doing it? 

[maverick]

Freeman explained in the hearing that, because of her busy docket, she is now scheduling trials for 2025. 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/judges-14-page-reasoning-sets-131854198.html

[Noles]

2 hours ago, bouche03 said:

That's some bush league antics by Sheffler.  For a guy that is by all accounts respectable and does things the right way, that is a terrible look on him and shows how petty he truly is.  And I hate saying that since I really like him.  

Am I correct that Cam was not behind his ball, he was on the opposite side of the hole reading the putt?

[mitchl]

3 hours ago, RobS said:

Not highly likely in this particular case.  Keep in mind that this is a civil suit brought on by 10 players seeking the right to continue playing PGA Tour events along with seeking damages related to their suspensions.  The players are alleging antitrust violations to support their case.  The judge was not particularly receptive during the hearing but there is obviously a long way to go.

 

Independent of this suit, the DOJ is investigating antitrust claims.  If they find evidence of antitrust violations the DOJ could sue the PGA Tour.  Hypothetically speaking, if the DOJ charges the PGA Tour, the process could be years long from start to finish with the potential to settle at any point in the process.

 

The interesting lawsuit would be LIV v PGA Tour but who knows if it that will ever happen, if there is merit or if the Saudis want to be in US court.  My only prediction is that by the time the dust settles on PGA/LIV legal matters, most of us will have lost interest in the topic.

1 - given the players will all make more in LIV and as she had stated any loss of sponsorships and major wins was already cooked into the LIV contracts, them showing any damage is a long road uphill.    All the claims in the suit about antitrust against LIV will be interesting in how the current plaintiffs are a part of that, or again, how they show damage.

 

2 - the DOJ has done such a bang up job on antitrust. Remember how after all those years they busted up Microsoft?   Oh yeah… nothing happened.   And that was anticompetitive which affected hundreds of millions of people with a company making more in a week than the PGA tour generates in a year.

 

3 -  why was LIV not part of this suit?   My guess is they really don’t want discovery… they really don’t want to have PIF board members coming into court.   Or perhaps they just don’t want to be part of Greg’s little battle here.

as for us losing interest….   Question is when do the players lose interest?   One already has.   3 just got their TRO denied.   And when do the Saudis lose interest?   Or if the Saudis lose interest in Greg, does the new CEO want to extend this out?

[idrive]

12 hours ago, physasst said:

Ya gotta love Billy Horschel....

 

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/billy-horschel-calls-out-brainwashed-liv-golf-players-says-pga-tour-vindicated-court-ruling

 

M

 

Seems a little strange BHo going that hard when he's fishing buds with C Smith?  Who is supposedly signed, sealed and (almost) delivered.

 

Guessing on a couple of different scenarios here.

 

1 - BHo and CS never go fishing again.

2 - CS doesn't get delivered and they stay fishing buddies.

 

Still hoping for #2

 

18 hours ago, mitchl said:

Patrick Reed and Chase Koepka are T78 +1, 9 strokes back of lead, after round 1 of the Singapore Open.    Looks like maybe about 10 LIVers are in this thing.   Reed the only one in the Top 50, and only 4 in top 100.

 

He went down there to play so he could get OWGR points. Seems he may not earn many/any.  How funny would that be? 

 

Sitting at -3 after 2 rounds. 11 shots in back of the leader.

[Retrop1]

16 hours ago, ahenderX said:

For starters, in 2022 LIV has not met a single OWGR requirement other than being sponsored by the Asian Tour. Sponsorship allowed LIV to submit an application. The below article is one of the better ones I have found which details what LIV needs to do to gain OWGR status based on current OWGR requirements.

 

LIV Golf’s application for World Ranking points is in. But the hurdles to earn approval remain numerous

A well written, non biased article? That is refreshing..........

[sfiggins]

13 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

Originally I thought it was classless as well but it was posted in the other thread that later on Sheffler high fived him after cam hit a good shot so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he accidentally did it.

Good to hear that. Sad that some applaud what they think is poor golf etiquette if it directed at a member of a rival tour.

[indianagolf2]

16 hours ago, Obsessed said:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/scottie-scheffler-cameron-smith-share-170032022.html

 

 

Why would scheffler do that.. .very immature and dumb

[hellojude]

22 hours ago, Rory4Pres said:

Timing is interesting since the Fed Ex cup just started but according to reports, both Cameron Smith and Cameron Young are joining LIV.  (they were the 1-2 finishers at this year's Open).  Cameron Smith is getting $100 million.  Initially he was offered $90 million from what I read and held out until they raised it another $10 mil.  Not sure what Young is getting but I'm guessing it's in the $30-60 million range.

 

The cherry picking of the PGA Tour's top talent continues.

I've read that Cam Young is not going to LIV

[Holy Moses]

12 hours ago, mitchl said:

1 - given the players will all make more in LIV and as she had stated any loss of sponsorships and major wins was already cooked into the LIV contracts, them showing any damage is a long road uphill.    All the claims in the suit about antitrust against LIV will be interesting in how the current plaintiffs are a part of that, or again, how they show damage.

 

2 - the DOJ has done such a bang up job on antitrust. Remember how after all those years they busted up Microsoft?   Oh yeah… nothing happened.   And that was anticompetitive which affected hundreds of millions of people with a company making more in a week than the PGA tour generates in a year.

 

3 -  why was LIV not part of this suit?   My guess is they really don’t want discovery… they really don’t want to have PIF board members coming into court.   Or perhaps they just don’t want to be part of Greg’s little battle here.

as for us losing interest….   Question is when do the players lose interest?   One already has.   3 just got their TRO denied.   And when do the Saudis lose interest?   Or if the Saudis lose interest in Greg, does the new CEO want to extend this out?

LIV not part of the suit, but the judge has seen the contracts and so has the PGA Tour