LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, Gregakin said:

Maybe I'm the big dummy, but why in the world would anyone want to buy a team? Too many bites at the pie to make a significant return IMO and golf is fickle (talent comes and goes).  I am a golf watching nut and already forgotten 90% of them, and missed zero % of them.

 

Where is my ROI coming from...clothing lines? No way.  % of earnings? So the players are taking a pay cut? No way.  TV revenue? Unlikely.  Golf but louder is cool for the kiddos and young adults, but who is the buying demographic with deep pockets.

 

To date LIV players invested nothing out of their own bank accounts; it's all blue sky or as they say, "there's a sh.t ton of money out here".  What happens when someone sticks a hand in their pocket?

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

Just a feeling, but wouldn't be surprised if Mickelson isn't required/"encouraged" to lead the way buying a "franchise" and maybe Norman as well?  If they ever get there and . . . actually reveal the owners, which they may not . . . that would be interesting.

[Dutch1008]

5 minutes ago, Gregakin said:

Maybe I'm the big dummy, but why in the world would anyone want to buy a team? Too many bites at the pie to make a significant return IMO and golf is fickle (talent comes and goes).  I am a golf watching nut and already forgotten 90% of them, and missed zero % of them.

 

Where is my ROI coming from...clothing lines? No way.  % of earnings? So the players are taking a pay cut? No way.  TV revenue? Unlikely.  Golf but louder is cool for the kiddos and young adults, but who is the buying demographic with deep pockets.

 

To date LIV players invested nothing out of their own bank accounts; it's all blue sky or as they say, "there's a sh.t ton of money out here".  What happens when someone sticks a hand in their pocket?

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

Lord knows I can't. 

 

Every response I've seen is centered around an idea of scarcity and access.

 

Are you obscenely wealthy but can't afford to drop $6B on the Commanders or Man U? Do you love sports and want to hang out with DJ and Paulina? Well do I have the deal for you! For a mere $100M* you can own 75% of the Aces! A collection of 4 mostly prominent golfers thrown together for no real reason other than making money for themselves! Don't like DJ or partying on yachts with Paulina, well how about something a little spicier? For the bargain price of $100M* you can own 75% of the Fireballs! Team up perpetual malcontent Sergio Garcia and 3 other dudes put together for simply because they each speak Spanish! Sure, Spain and Mexico are different countries but who cares Amigo! If that is too "cultural" for you, I also have a group of old euro's out back that I can probably get a deal on. Limited supplies available, act now! 

 

*$100M doesn't include priority PIF debt you'll need to assume (It has a minimum 25% return a 3x liquidation preference, no biggie) as well as perpetually forecasted operating losses that you'll need to fund.

 

Let me know when you're ready to sign!     

[Gregakin]

21 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just a feeling, but wouldn't be surprised if Mickelson isn't required/"encouraged" to lead the way buying a "franchise" and maybe Norman as well?  If they ever get there and . . . actually reveal the owners, which they may not . . . that would be interesting.

Perhaps, but I don't see Phil going backwards one step, to potentially take two steps forward. And wouldn't this be a case of the top brass getting a bigger bite of the apple; which is what Phil accused the PGAT of?  

 

IDK, guess we have a front row seat to it all playing out 🙂

[Hawkeye77]

26 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

Lord knows I can't. 

 

Every response I've seen is centered around an idea of scarcity and access.

 

Are you obscenely wealthy but can't afford to drop $6B on the Commanders or Man U? Do you love sports and want to hang out with DJ and Paulina? Well do I have the deal for you! For a mere $100M* you can own 75% of the Aces! A collection of 4 mostly prominent golfers thrown together for no real reason other than making money for themselves! Don't like DJ or partying on yachts with Paulina, well how about something a little spicier? For the bargain price of $100M* you can own 75% of the Fireballs! Team up perpetual malcontent Sergio Garcia and 3 other dudes put together for simply because they each speak Spanish! Sure, Spain and Mexico are different countries but who cares Amigo! If that is too "cultural" for you, I also have a group of old euro's out back that I can probably get a deal on. Limited supplies available, act now! 

 

*$100M doesn't include priority PIF debt you'll need to assume (It has a minimum 25% return a 3x liquidation preference, no biggie) as well as perpetually forecasted operating losses that you'll need to fund.

 

Let me know when you're ready to sign!     

It really is a dumb idea!

[woahnelly]

I like the team aspect, the players, the shotgun start is cool, I liked it before on the LET Dubai Moonlight event. Troy, Su Ann, Feherty and co are fun. 

 

But how am I supposed to enjoy it between the state restriction on betting sites, the Steve Wilkos show is on CW, and an 8th grader designed the website?

Edited March 29, 2023 by woahnelly

[JungleJimbo]

Fascinating article. Includes LIV/ Golf discussion (despite the title indicating Newcastle/Football focus). 

 

https://theathletic.com/4343985/2023/03/29/yasir-al-rumayyan-newcastle-profile

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by JungleJimbo

[Short Pete]

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-business-plan-coming-more-into-focus-expansion-possible-2024

 

This is really a fun read. It shows all the glitches and mistakes this idea has. Did they really expect the captains to "manage their teams" and to run around finding investors, only to hand 75 per cent of the generated revenue back to LIV? Or create ideas on how to sell merch to the gazillions of fans out there? Imagine Brooks Koepka sitting at home with Jena, choosing shirts and caps for his team. Or him trying to get a date with the CEO of, say Ssangyong, and telling him: Hey, I'm a former 4 time Major champion, don't you want to invest XY millions dollars in my great team? I got Kokrak, Wolff and my brother Chase here, isn't that great?? Answer: Give me Homa, Thomas and Spieth, then we may talk. And by the way, where are we present when we sponsor you? Brooks: Well, we can put your logo on our shirts. CEO: Show me the shirts. And where is your league airing? Brooks: Ah well, Jena couldn't decide on the design, we chose the blue Hawaiian design, but Kokrak and my brother didn't like it. And TV? Man, I play, I don't watch. They paid me a boatload of money to do this. Yknow, I don't really care about golf, I'm a Football guy.

[aus10KC]

14 hours ago, CaseyC said:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-business-plan-coming-more-into-focus-expansion-possible-2024

 

 

...LIV officials have been complaining to teams that they are not doing enough to generate revenue....

 

But I thought they were just golfers playing golf. They have a team that does things for them.

 

We heard that a bunch last year. 

 

This thing is doomed to fail.

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

The Tiger-Rory thing is a low cost risk. No 100 million contracts no big production costs. 

 

Agreed but viewership and market are independent of risk.  Risk is not independent of viewership/market.

 

I don't know all the ins and outs of the Tiger-Rory thing, but I would surmise that a big part of why it could or will work, from a risk standpoint, is the support it will get from the PGAT and current PGAT television partners.  I do not think, and I reserve the right to be 100% wrong, that Tiger and Rory are going to foot 100% of the bill regarding mobilizing television production of their thing.  They will have a huge advantage in that they have secured some prime-time air-time (IIRC) and they likely have a good bit of TV muscle from ESPN/ABC or CBS or NBC/Golf Channel(whatever is left of GC) to get that product to air. 

 

LIV didn't and still doesn't have that.  Though LIV may have found a company to do that end of it for them.  I was rather impressed with the quality of the camera work and clarity of the shots and it was pretty decent production the events last year.  I was leery that it was going to be akin to someone with a go-pro or a little nicer than a home camcorder out there filming it.  I think it would be hard for someone to argue that LIV doesn't have professional quality video production on their side.  You may not like the score tracker thing or the announcers but the actual visuals and visual quality are very good.  The shots the camera guys get are as good or better as what you see from any other golf broadcast.

[smashdn]

17 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

plus closed events, no player criteria, no meaningful events, paid in advance, no cuts, a tossed together schedule...I fixed it for you

 

Visually that means nothing when you watch the actual product though, and that was the point.  At the end of the day, it is guys hitting a ball on TV, and a stroke play competition where the guy who shoots the lowest score wins the event.

[bscinstnct]

13 hours ago, Gregakin said:

Maybe I'm the big dummy, but why in the world would anyone want to buy a team? Too many bites at the pie to make a significant return IMO and golf is fickle (talent comes and goes).  I am a golf watching nut and already forgotten 90% of them, and missed zero % of them.

 

Where is my ROI coming from...clothing lines? No way.  % of earnings? So the players are taking a pay cut? No way.  TV revenue? Unlikely.  Golf but louder is cool for the kiddos and young adults, but who is the buying demographic with deep pockets.

 

To date LIV players invested nothing out of their own bank accounts; it's all blue sky or as they say, "there's a sh.t ton of money out here".  What happens when someone sticks a hand in their pocket?

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

 

Let’s harken back to when liv looked like a huge threat. 
 

Had they really pulled off the intended coup, they would have a bunch of top-20/top-10 guys and would be doing great.

 

Sports team owners are always already very rich. They buy a team for prestige and lifestyle and their own ego as much as a business opportunity. 
 

There would definitely interest in buying a team that had like JT, Rahmbo, Rickie, and Billy Ho!

 

Assuming the other teams/liv had equally big talent all around. 
 

Even if the road to making money was long, there’s billionaire golf fanatics, that would plunk down 💰. Business guys, celebs. Just to brag about being an owner and hang and golf with the players. 
 

But alas….not much interest in the Iron Heads with Kevin Na and Scott Vincent, it would seem ; )

[jimecherry]

7 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Let’s harken back to when liv looked like a huge threat. 
 

Had they really pulled off the intended coup, they would have a bunch of top-20/top-10 guys and would be doing great.

 

Sports team owners are always already very rich. They buy a team for prestige and lifestyle and their own ego as much as a business opportunity. 
 

There would definitely interest in buying a team that had like JT, Rahmbo, Rickie, and Billy Ho!

 

Assuming the other teams/liv had equally big talent all around. 
 

Even if the road to making money was long, there’s billionaire golf fanatics, that would plunk down 💰. Business guys, celebs. Just to brag about being an owner and hang and golf with the players. 
 

But alas….not much interest in the Iron Heads with Kevin Na and Scott Vincent, it would seem ; )

Even if they had gotten some of the guys you mentioned their world rankings would have decayed by now. To the point where they wouldn't be top 10-20

[Holy Moses]

17 hours ago, CaseyC said:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-business-plan-coming-more-into-focus-expansion-possible-2024

 

Officials said next year could see 15 teams, up from 12, with Monday qualifying a possibility...

 

...

Instead, LIV knew that the teams would take time to ramp up revenue streams, so as part of the plan in 2023, LIV provides operating capital to each team depending on their needs.

That capital will eventually be paid back to LIV when the team is sold....

 

...if for some reason they wanted to leave LIV, the penalty clause is two, three or four times their signing bonus to break their agreement...

 

...LIV officials have been complaining to teams that they are not doing enough to generate revenue....

Gotta blame someone for your lack of revenue!

 

I get the 4X penalty if you back out (if that’s true reporting). LIV can’t invest $1-2 billion and let players leave without a huge penalty. 

[Shilgy]

14 hours ago, Gregakin said:

Maybe I'm the big dummy, but why in the world would anyone want to buy a team? Too many bites at the pie to make a significant return IMO and golf is fickle (talent comes and goes).  I am a golf watching nut and already forgotten 90% of them, and missed zero % of them.

 

Where is my ROI coming from...clothing lines? No way.  % of earnings? So the players are taking a pay cut? No way.  TV revenue? Unlikely.  Golf but louder is cool for the kiddos and young adults, but who is the buying demographic with deep pockets.

 

To date LIV players invested nothing out of their own bank accounts; it's all blue sky or as they say, "there's a sh.t ton of money out here".  What happens when someone sticks a hand in their pocket?

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

They can’t get one team sold and are talking about expanding next year already? With teams made up of Asian tour “stars”?  Do I have that right?

 

This whole league is being run like it was an idea on a napkin and they ran with it even though the waitress spilled a drink on the napkin and they can’t really read it any longer…..

”what’s that say Greg? Expand in ‘24?” “ uh yeah MBS, that’s it we just need another $500m to get it going.”  “How many of the teams have sold for at least the minimum target price. Time for us to recoup some investment.”  “Uh, let me consult my notes…that, uh, would be none sir”.  “Off with his head!”

[smashdn]

Derrick Henry, Reese Witherspoon, Filip Forsberg and Giannis Antetokounmpo all are percentage owners in MLS club Nashville SC.  On the surface that doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

 

Like I said in that other post of mine, the concept is not terrible, the execution of the concept is/was.  It is likely too late to be salvaged but the PGAT could adopt parts of it and create a "Champions League" type concept where the top finishers and winners gain access to the events (Sentry Tournament of Champions-esque).  You just have shorter, different format events as opposed to another 72 hole stroke play affair.  Just another wrinkle.  Have that event at maybe one of those traditionally not well attended events and sort of "force" the big names to be there.  maybe they don't play the actual event but on Wednesday maybe they play their match play event or whatever and it attracts fans and eyes to see them and that.

[woodriff]

Here are the LIV boys at the Masters …https://www.si.com/golf/news/here-are-the-18-liv-golfers-who-will-compete-in-the-2023-masters#gid=ci02baf134c0002412&pid=1

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, jimecherry said:

Even if they had gotten some of the guys you mentioned their world rankings would have decayed by now. To the point where they wouldn't be top 10-20

 

By “bunch” I meant half.

 

Heres “every other” guy in the top 20

 

Scottie

Rahm

Cam

Xander

Hovland

JT

Finau

Fitzpatrick

 

Then add the guys they got

 

DJ 

BK

Bryson

 

Owgr would be irrelevant because the pga tours own owgr rankings would be crushed as well

 

Be chaos! 🤣

 

But if liv had those guys above, everyone be watching it. And “team” investors would be lining up.

 

 

 

 

 

[idrive]

15 hours ago, Gregakin said:

Maybe I'm the big dummy, but why in the world would anyone want to buy a team? Too many bites at the pie to make a significant return IMO and golf is fickle (talent comes and goes).  I am a golf watching nut and already forgotten 90% of them, and missed zero % of them.

 

Where is my ROI coming from...clothing lines? No way.  % of earnings? So the players are taking a pay cut? No way.  TV revenue? Unlikely.  Golf but louder is cool for the kiddos and young adults, but who is the buying demographic with deep pockets.

 

To date LIV players invested nothing out of their own bank accounts; it's all blue sky or as they say, "there's a sh.t ton of money out here".  What happens when someone sticks a hand in their pocket?

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

 

I was in sales for a decent share of my life. Did quite well, thank you. If, I could/would have been able to sell one of these teams I'd be in the Guinness book of greatest salesmen ever.

 

It appears that potential owners are using their head and not their pocketbook when deciding whether or not to buy a team.

 

As mentioned, it would be for prestige (if that's possible) not for profit.

 

 

.

Edited March 29, 2023 by idrive

[jdl]

15 hours ago, Gregakin said:

 

Someone sell me on buying a team?

[Gregakin]

As mentioned earlier, let's see one of these players step up and purchase a franchise.  MLB, NBA, and NASCAR guys become owners.

 

If it's such a great opportunity, then why aren't they first in line?  Put your money where your mouth is big boy 😜

[idrive]

Golfwrx article

 

Report: The extraordinary sum LIV pros have to pay if they decide to break their contract – GolfWRX

 

OUCH.

 

There has to be some players agents that are under fire for these contracts the players signed.

 

IMO - If the players would have read - understood in great detail, every word of their contract, there would have been some changes in them.

[subrew]

Please don't mislabel anything Matt Vincenzi puts out as an "article."  He is cut and paste Journalism at it's finest.  1-2 twitter cut and paste jobs a day for the clicks on the home page. 

 

At least link the original news story he cut and pasted from, the Sports Illustrated article.

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-business-plan-coming-more-into-focus-expansion-possible-2024  

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

By “bunch” I meant half.

 

Heres “every other” guy in the top 20

 

Scottie

Rahm

Cam

Xander

Hovland

JT

Finau

Fitzpatrick

 

Then add the guys they got

 

DJ 

BK

Bryson

 

Owgr would be irrelevant because the pga tours own owgr rankings would be crushed as well

 

Be chaos! 🤣

 

But if liv had those guys above, everyone be watching it. And “team” investors would be lining up.

 

 

If the ability to play DPWT/PGAT and LIV existed there would still have been [better] opportunity for those guys to play events and gain OWGR points if they desired.  If we are including the "plans" as they were presented as part of the conversation, include it all.

[bscinstnct]

14 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

If the ability to play DPWT/PGAT and LIV existed there would still have been [better] opportunity for those guys to play events and gain OWGR points if they desired.  If we are including the "plans" as they were presented as part of the conversation, include it all.

 

Playing another tour was always against the rules so I don’t think anybody was really surprised that they couldn’t do both. I mean, there was griping a little but that was all bs, the big names took their 💰 and didn’t care about playing on the tour. 
 

Like Sergio was seriously surprised? He be like marinating in too much delicious rioja 🍷 🤣

 

Six days later, Garcia texted Norman: "Hi Sharky! It's official, the Tour has told our managers this week that whoever signs with the League, is ban from the Tour for life! I don't know how are we gonna get enough good players to join the League under this conditions. What do you think?"

 

 

Norman responded that the PGA Tour could not ban players "for one day let alone life."

 

 

"It is a shallow threat," Norman wrote. "Ask them to put it in writing to you or any player. I bet they don't. Happy for anyone to speak with our legal team to better understand they have no chance of enforcing."

 

https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10044528-sergio-garcias-texts-with-greg-norman-revealed-as-part-of-liv-golfers-lawsuit.amp.html

 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by bscinstnct

[Holy Moses]

1 hour ago, Gregakin said:

As mentioned earlier, let's see one of these players step up and purchase a franchise.  MLB, NBA, and NASCAR guys become owners.

 

If it's such a great opportunity, then why aren't they first in line?  Put your money where your mouth is big boy 😜

The players don’t have that kind of money and if they did out of their advances they know they would be throwing it away. They know they can’t recoup what LIV paid them. These guys would never bet on themselves, at least not at the level that LIV would like.

[Chrysalis99]

I think some of the concepts LIV put forward might have been good ones. Unfortunately with Norman in charge the entire effort seems stuck in mud. I don’t dislike LIV being a player in the golf world but Norman seems to be the wrong choice even though I kinda liked him before. What happened to Greg Norman? Did he just develop a major chip on his shoulder? I never followed golf close enough during his hey days but he seems to be universally hated by so-called “management”. The public seemed to really like him but as time has gone on we find out more and more the PTB disliked him greatly. A guy that accomplished so much should be mostly revered but for Greg that doesn’t seem to be the case. 

[kasting333]

28 minutes ago, Chrysalis99 said:

I think some of the concepts LIV put forward might have been good ones. Unfortunately with Norman in charge the entire effort seems stuck in mud. I don’t dislike LIV being a player in the golf world but Norman seems to be the wrong choice even though I kinda liked him before. What happened to Greg Norman? Did he just develop a major chip on his shoulder? I never followed golf close enough during his hey days but he seems to be universally hated by so-called “management”. The public seemed to really like him but as time has gone on we find out more and more the PTB disliked him greatly. A guy that accomplished so much should be mostly revered but for Greg that doesn’t seem to be the case. 

The public or the media?

[TiScape]

10 hours ago, JungleJimbo said:

Fascinating article. Includes LIV/ Golf discussion (despite the title indicating Newcastle/Football focus). 

 

https://theathletic.com/4343985/2023/03/29/yasir-al-rumayyan-newcastle-profile

 

 

 

 

Is that the guy from that Marvel movie?!

Edited March 29, 2023 by TiScape

[mitchl]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

Golfwrx article

 

Report: The extraordinary sum LIV pros have to pay if they decide to break their contract – GolfWRX

 

OUCH.

 

There has to be some players agents that are under fire for these contracts the players signed.

 

IMO - If the players would have read - understood in great detail, every word of their contract, there would have been some changes in them.

couple things… I wonder if that’s actually enforceable.   I could see returning all signing bonus, but how does the penalty work out?   I would expect that the court would pro rate the original signing bonus.    Also articles last year indicated that the bonuses were broken up over time and they would just be forgoing the current plus future years.   
in any case, with the discussion about people leaving, I doubt that anyone who signed the multi million dollar signing bonuses can afford to leave.    

 

as for the agents, they got their money, why do you think they care?    I suspect they are probably just telling their players to shut up and play.
 

 

[mitchl]

18 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just a feeling, but wouldn't be surprised if Mickelson isn't required/"encouraged" to lead the way buying a "franchise" and maybe Norman as well?  If they ever get there and . . . actually reveal the owners, which they may not . . . that would be interesting.

why would he buy a team?   He already owns 25% of his team.   What does owning the entire thing get him?   They have told the story already, there is near zero revenue here.   You’re not going to make the team millions of dollars by selling hats.   Any value in the team is being a sponsor/owner and getting your brand out … and right now that has zero value with LIV, but even if it did, Phil won’t be selling that much coffee off team ownership.