LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Mr.Cleeks]

11 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

With the LPGA Tour’s poor ratings, I don’t know what leverage Whan had

Ratings are a big deal but he actively improved the LPGAT in his 11 years as commissioner. Expanded the schedule from 24 to 34 events and purse size increased by 85% under him. If he was the LPGAT commissioner right now the women's game would be in a significantly better spot.

[Holy Moses]

1 hour ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

Ratings are a big deal but he actively improved the LPGAT in his 11 years as commissioner. Expanded the schedule from 24 to 34 events and purse size increased by 85% under him. If he was the LPGAT commissioner right now the women's game would be in a significantly better spot.

I thought he was a good commissioner, but he still had no leverage over the Golf Channel. I thought I remembered hearing that a good chunk of the prize money increases were from majors like the US Open that he didn’t have a part in. 

[bcjim]

7 hours ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

 If he was the LPGAT commissioner right now the women's game would be in a significantly better spot.

The usga would be in a better spot too, imo.😆

The Peter Principle proven yet again, I believe. 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

The usga would be in a better spot too, imo.😆

The Peter Principle proven yet again, I believe. 

 

What do you see as his failings as head of the USGA or in what ways is the USGA not what it could be due to him?

[Mr.Cleeks]

2 hours ago, bcjim said:

The usga would be in a better spot too, imo.😆

The Peter Principle proven yet again, I believe. 

What has he done that you don’t like? Between the purse increase for the uswo and the formation of the adaptive open the USGA is in a much better spot then they were prior to him coming in

[leezer99]

17 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

 

The PGAT currently has a strategic alliance with the LPGA.  Somehow, their media rights with the golf channel are included in that relationship. Aramco sponsors some LET events, and I do believe that they stopped a merger of the two ladies' tours.

 

That being said, maybe the new commish of the LPGA will find a way to get the Saudi money, but I doubt it, seeing as how the PGAT hasn't figured that out yet. 🙂

 

Money vs. Relevance. Shortsighted women of the LPGA will jump on to a PIF invested league to make money but lose all relevance in the golf space. The PGA Tour does prop up the LPGA and helps keep them relevant but if you already barely hear about Rose Zhang while she's on the LPGA tour you're going to think you're deaf if she were to jump to a PIF tour. 

[lopey986]

16 hours ago, WesternRacing said:

 

LIV is the modern equivalent of the Pro Bowling Association from a ratings/fan perspective.

Don't compare LIV to PBA...PBA gets like 500k when they are on ESPN lol. LIV is lucky to crack 200 on an OTA channel.

[ThinkingPlus]

25 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

 

Money vs. Relevance. Shortsighted women of the LPGA will jump on to a PIF invested league to make money but lose all relevance in the golf space. The PGA Tour does prop up the LPGA and helps keep them relevant but if you already barely hear about Rose Zhang while she's on the LPGA tour you're going to think you're deaf if she were to jump to a PIF tour. 

It's alot easier to say "no" if you have millions in the bank. There are very few LPGA or LET players that are in that kind of financial situation. 

[bcjim]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

What do you see as his failings as head of the USGA or in what ways is the USGA not what it could be due to him?

His pointless ball crusade.

[subrew]

From listening to the actual players, the attraction of the Aramco Team Series events that are LET sanctioned isn't necessarily the bigger prize money for the winner, because it isn't really that huge.  It's the fact that everyone entered makes money, and Aramco covers all the costs of getting to the event, being at the event etc.  A lady player ranked 70th in the world likely loses money (if she doesn't have sponsorship) at most events if she is finishing worse than say 30th place.  So with the Aramco events they don't lose money, and it is one of the few times they can pay their caddies a minimum amount and often pay to have their coach in attendance.  I saw a clip where the day before an Aramco is often one of the few times during the year they get to have coaches at events and not lose money on it.

 

One of the big pushes Michelle Wei West made when she worked to create the Mizuho Open, was minimum stipends to cover travel, and make sure sponsorship partnerships paid for things like hotels, shuttles, food etc., for the player and caddie.  So if they do miss a cut, they aren't losing $5k attending.  

 

The Aramco tie in for the ladies isn't about massive sign on bonuses or huge payouts like on LIV.  Its more about propping up the middle and bottom of the field entrants to make it more sustainable.  

 

And the players do actually seem to really like the Team aspect of the Aramco events.  The teams even include an AM on the team, and have a draft.  Totally different and quirky, but everyone seems to enjoy it.  The team event runs concurrent with the main event for the first two days.  The third day is only the main individual event.

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

His pointless ball crusade.

 

You think in July 2021 he just decided that it was his personal mission to change the ball or that maybe it had been something simmering within the USGA and R&A for some time?

 

As CEO, do you think he unilaterally drives the ship so-to-speak, or that he takes some direction from his board?

Edited July 2 by smashdn
punctuation

[Holy Moses]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

You think in July 2021 he just decided that it was his personal mission to change the ball or that maybe it had been something simmering within the USGA and R&A for some time?

 

As CEO, do you think he unilaterally drives the ship so-to-speak, or that he takes some direction from his board?

Yep, the USGA has been wanting to reduce distance long before Whan was in charge

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

Yep, the USGA has been wanting to reduce distance long before Whan was in charge

Yes, the USGA and R&A have spent many years modifying equipment rules in order to change how the game is played. They hate bomb and gouge. They seem to be willing to sacrifice anything to get rid of that strategy. My guess is Whan would not have been hired if he wasn't willing to continue that process.

[bcjim]

But he has clearly embraced the idea and its under his watch now. So he owns it.

[Holy Moses]

58 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Yes, the USGA and R&A have spent many years modifying equipment rules in order to change how the game is played. They hate bomb and gouge. They seem to be willing to sacrifice anything to get rid of that strategy. My guess is Whan would not have been hired if he wasn't willing to continue that process.

Exactly. Get a guy who is well-liked by most but still in favor of a distance rollback. I still think limiting driver head size for elite amateurs and pros was the better way to go.  

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, Holy Moses said:

Exactly. Get a guy who is well-liked by most but still in favor of a distance rollback. I still think limiting driver head size for elite amateurs and pros was the better way to go.  

That wouldn't work. Nerfing the ball by their proposed amount won't do anything to the pros either. They are going to boil a frog as far as I can tell. As each change doesn't work they will keep ramping up the nerf until they get the style of play they desire. It will happen gradually so ams don't notice so much. It will take revolution to stop them. Not sure the other invested parties will go that far.

[jdl]

The range I use installed a Trackman system and this week had a LIV ad on the login screen. Definitely hitting the target audience there, that place is packed with young dudes all the time.

[Short Pete]

43 minutes ago, jdl said:

The range I use installed a Trackman system and this week had a LIV ad on the login screen. Definitely hitting the target audience there, that place is packed with young dudes all the time.

I practice at a Trackman facility with loads of young guys and girls. They all don’t give a flying F about Rahm, the Cleeks or Ripper GC and Anthony Kim. Let alone the old hasbeens like Stenson, Westwood or Poulter. If you’re on site at a LIV event this may be fun. But on the goggle box there is no target audience. Because the concept sucks, plain and simple. Aldrich Potgieter and Max Greyserman are a better draw than Al Rummeljan’s Ziegfeld Follies. 

Edited July 2 by Short Pete

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

Yep, the USGA has been wanting to reduce distance long before Whan was in charge

 

So, just so I understand, you think Whan has been a failure because he is executing a longstanding desire of the USGA and R&A?

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Yes, the USGA and R&A have spent many years modifying equipment rules in order to change how the game is played. They hate bomb and gouge. They seem to be willing to sacrifice anything to get rid of that strategy. My guess is Whan would not have been hired if he wasn't willing to continue that process.

 

Who is the "they" at the USGA and R&A and whose interests do those organizations represent?

[smashdn]

50 minutes ago, Short Pete said:

Aldrich Potgieter and Max Greyserman are a better draw ...

 

I hope that is hyperbolic.

[ThinkingPlus]

7 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Who is the "they" at the USGA and R&A and whose interests do those organizations represent?

Everyone that works at high levels in the USGA and R&A.

[Holy Moses]

29 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

So, just so I understand, you think Whan has been a failure because he is executing a longstanding desire of the USGA and R&A?

I never said he was a failure with the USGA. He’s good, but I’d rather have a driver head rollback. Some people critiqued him for his media deals with the LPGA, but he was in a tough spot.

[Holy Moses]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

That wouldn't work. Nerfing the ball by their proposed amount won't do anything to the pros either. They are going to boil a frog as far as I can tell. As each change doesn't work they will keep ramping up the nerf until they get the style of play they desire. It will happen gradually so ams don't notice so much. It will take revolution to stop them. Not sure the other invested parties will go that far.

It will be all for naught if the PGA Tour doesn’t go with the roll back. The USGA will probably be forced to rescind it.

[Danielson]

14 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

I never said he was a failure with the USGA. He’s good, but I’d rather have a driver head rollback. Some people critiqued him for his media deals with the LPGA, but he was in a tough spot.

 

I do wonder if a driver head rollback is where the OEMs want to go. Been a lot of Mini Drivers released the last few years, and it would cost a lot less for them. 

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Everyone that works at high levels in the USGA and R&A.

 

And the second part of the question?

[Holy Moses]

32 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

I do wonder if a driver head rollback is where the OEMs want to go. Been a lot of Mini Drivers released the last few years, and it would cost a lot less for them. 

It’s better than a 10 yard distance loss which is all pros are going to lose. Not even worth the trouble for 10 yards.

[smashdn]

15 hours ago, Holy Moses said:

I never said he was a failure with the USGA. He’s good, but I’d rather have a driver head rollback. Some people critiqued him for his media deals with the LPGA, but he was in a tough spot.

 

You are correct.  I thought I was responding to the individual who had called him a failure in his role at USGA without stating why they felt that way.

[smashdn]

1 minute ago, Holy Moses said:

It’s better than a 10 yard distance loss which is all pros are going to lose. Not even worth the trouble for 10 yards.

 

"Golf" doesn't want bifurcation.

I agree 10 yards is not enough to get them their stated impact desired.

The rest of golfdom outside pros and high level ams cannot stomach that level of distance loss.

 

There are too many desires wishing to be met for them to really do anything, and not doing anything is also a pretty bad outcome.

 

The toothpaste didn't all come out of the tube at once, I suppose the aim is to slowly put it back in a little at a time as well.

 

As far as how that impacts LIV, they seem content (forced?) with going to different courses season after season so maybe the distance issues are less noticeable?  Or maybe since it is really only BDC hitting it stupid long, and clearly he is the outlier, it is less an issue they contend with.  LIV seems to lean in on it pretty hard actually.

[Danielson]

3 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

It’s better than a 10 yard distance loss which is all pros are going to lose. Not even worth the trouble for 10 yards.

 

Yeah, I agree. I've read opinions from people who think the USGA is trying to put a pinky on the scale just to establish the fact that rolling back the ball is something they can do, before they try to make any large changes. I guess it makes sense, but it also sets up a situation where no one is happy because even the people who support a rollback know you didn't go far enough. Smaller driver heads immediately solve the problem of courses having to get too long, and then you can figure out the rest later. 

 

I think LIV could actually make some waves if they restrained the equipment. Considering they play a lot of shorter "regular" courses it could be useful. Do the things that people want the PGA Tour to do and you might get some eyeballs to see how it goes.