LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[TiScape]

Already avoided nasty Subway sandwiches. Now seeing Bryson in em w/“Shooter”… 🤮 

 

🤣

 

 

*great golfer 

Edited July 21 by TiScape

[Holy Moses]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Overall, it is simply a fact that most LIV players have had their games suffer and the proof is in the majors and other events they play in that blend with Tours.  Cam Smith is 100% representative, you can't just excuse him.  Some have clearly checked out.

 

A few are competitive, may win some big events, but overall, with the exception of Hatton and Bryson haven't met or exceeded what would be reasonable expectations for them.  Rahm would be better and perform better in these events if he was playing actual competitive golf - he's almost, almost, said so.  

 

So "lost a tiny step"? Big steps!

A few months ago I had a long post where I delved into the records of LIV players via Data Golf. LIV players have won around 18% of the majors since they left and they were 18% of the top 100 players when they left. They also had roughly the same percentage of players who finished in the top 10 of majors since they left. Now that LIV players didn't win any majors in 2025, that number doesn't look as healthy. Part of the issue is that LIV players were generally older, so it's not unsurprising that with age comes decreasing skill and you'd fall out of the rankings and not perform as well. With that said, here's some more numbers via data Golf from when players left to where they are at now.

 

-Brooks Koepka in 2022 was 19; currently 104

-Dustin Johnson in 2022 was 17; currently 111

-Cam Smith in 2022 was 5; currently 79

-Rahm in 2023 was 6; currently 3

-Joaquin Niemann in 2022 was 16; currently 19

-Bryson DeChambeau in 2022 was 84; currently 4

-Sergio Garcia in 2022 was 45; currently 98

-Patrick Reed in 2022 was 71; currently 39

-Taylor Gooch in 2022 was 26; currently 85

-Louis Oosthuizen in 2022 was 37; currently 117

-Tyrrell Hatton in 2024 was 10; currently 10

[Holy Moses]

32 minutes ago, BSI99 said:

I thought LIV owned a portion of Bryson's youtube? At least I thought I heard that rumor. 

There was that rumor, but it's never been confirmed. I would think it is hard to profit off of someone's personal YouTube page. Maybe they got the Crushers team channel and Bryson's personal channel confused. 

[smashdn]

Cam Smith was a great putter.  If you follow the Strokes Gained stuff much at all you find that winners often ride a hot streak with the putter.  

 

I haven't looked deeply into how he is playing now but it would not surprise me if Smith is going through a similar deal as Jordan Spieth.  Putter just not as good and therefore not winning.

[Holy Moses]

4 minutes ago, smashdn said:

Cam Smith was a great putter.  If you follow the Strokes Gained stuff much at all you find that winners often ride a hot streak with the putter.  

 

I haven't looked deeply into how he is playing now but it would not surprise me if Smith is going through a similar deal as Jordan Spieth.  Putter just not as good and therefore not winning.

Not according to Data Golf. Cam is just as good around the green and putting as he ever was. His driving and approach stats have fallen off over the last few years. 

[johnseg]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

Not according to Data Golf. Cam is just as good around the green and putting as he ever was. His driving and approach stats have fallen off over the last few years. 

The problem again with the strokes gained approach is that he is being compared to only other LIV players.

[SnowbirdTom]

Dunno what. the fascination is with Data Golf.  

[WesternRacing]

2 hours ago, TiScape said:

Already avoided nasty Subway sandwiches. Now seeing Bryson in em w/“Shooter”… 🤮 

 

🤣

 

 

*great golfer 

 

Isn’t Bryson’s voice and posture in that commercial a little…hmmm, how do I put this…

 

Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

[WesternRacing]

Golf is about the Majors and The Players.  Everything else is just a traveling corporate marketing tent show filling time between the majors.  IMO, OWGR should just be based on performance in those five events.  And if you can’t qualify for them, you shouldn’t be in the ‘world ranking’ conversation anyway.

[Holy Moses]

8 minutes ago, SnowbirdTom said:

Dunno what. the fascination is with Data Golf.  

Not many other options out there that compare LIV to non-LIV players

[Dutch1008]

5 minutes ago, SnowbirdTom said:

Dunno what. the fascination is with Data Golf.  

 

For the same reasons Moneyball was both a best selling book and movie. It's an attempt to bring some objectivity into subjective barstool discourse. People have used stats to argue for or against players for ages. These are simply better stats. Baseball had this revolution 25 years ago. Other sports are finally catching up. 

[Holy Moses]

4 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

Golf is about the Majors and The Players.  Everything else is just a traveling corporate marketing tent show filling time between the majors.  IMO, OWGR should just be based on performance in those five events.  And if you can’t qualify for them, you shouldn’t be in the ‘world ranking’ conversation anyway.

If OWGR is just ranking performance in those events and OWGR is generally how you get into those events, then those events are a mostly closed shop

[Holy Moses]

27 minutes ago, johnseg said:

The problem again with the strokes gained approach is that he is being compared to only other LIV players.

No, it’s strength of field also compared to other tours. Cam has also played in 12 majors since he joined LIV with non-LIV players. 

[WesternRacing]

2 minutes ago, Holy Moses said:

If OWGR is just ranking performance in those events and OWGR is generally how you get into those events, then those events are a mostly closed shop

 

Change the entry rules and/or make people qualify.  Each tournament could have their own ranking system/entry rules.  But true OWGR would just be based on the Majors.  It would eliminate some of the pretenders from the discussion about who’s the best in the world.

[Dutch1008]

25 minutes ago, johnseg said:

The problem again with the strokes gained approach is that he is being compared to only other LIV players.

 

That's not how datagolf works. They make course and field strength adjustments and compare those to a PGA baseline. The PGA baseline is a measure of the players ranked 125 thru 175. This effectively defines what a "replacement player" is. Strokes Gained is a measure of how much better or worse you are in relation to this theoretical replacement player. Very similar to how WAR works in baseball. 

 

The stat will never be perfect. The only way it could be is if the top 150 players all played the exact same schedule over a meaningful sample size. Unfortunately, the PGA has different tiers of events (majors vs signature vs non-signature vs opposite field), the DPWT has strong events and weak events, and LIV exists, They attempt to make adjustments to normalize the data but it will never be perfect. At best we can hope that its directionally correct with a reasonable margin of error. 

 

https://datagolf.com/frequently-asked-questions#data-golf-rankings

 

You may not like the model, or perhaps you think the model overrates or underrates some specific contingent. Regardless,  I think it's far more robust and representative of talent than something like OWGR. 

 

 

[Danielson]

8 minutes ago, WesternRacing said:

 

Change the entry rules and/or make people qualify.  Each tournament could have their own ranking system/entry rules.  But true OWGR would just be based on the Majors.  It would eliminate some of the pretenders from the discussion about who’s the best in the world.

 

They did come up with their own ranking system, it's called the OWGR.

[WesternRacing]

17 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

They did come up with their own ranking system, it's called the OWGR.

 

And yet it’s flawed.  Fine.  Let’s just great a separate ranking called The Best Players in Golf, and only count the Majors.  I’d bet it will provide a more accurate view of who the 10-20 best players in the world really are than OWGR.

[SnowbirdTom]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

Not many other options out there that compare LIV to non-LIV players

Seriously, why should anyone care about LIV players? They play closed field events and their fields are weaker than mud bricks in a torrential downpour. LPGA is way more interesting.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, WesternRacing said:

Golf is about the Majors and The Players.  Everything else is just a traveling corporate marketing tent show filling time between the majors.  IMO, OWGR should just be based on performance in those five events.  And if you can’t qualify for them, you shouldn’t be in the ‘world ranking’ conversation anyway.

 

To me golf is about all of the tournaments.  

 

Do you only watch the majors? 

Edited July 21 by bekgolf
Cut out the negative

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Holy Moses said:

If OWGR is just ranking performance in those events and OWGR is generally how you get into those events, then those events are a mostly closed shop

 

I said that and this a long time ago, those that had seats on the OWGR board were also those that had an interest in keeping LIV out.  Hence, why it has been so hard to get anything slightly different through.

 

^That is not to say I also do not find there to be legitimate reasons not to allow LIV OWGR points.

[smashdn]

44 minutes ago, SnowbirdTom said:

Seriously, why should anyone care about LIV players? They play closed field events and their fields are weaker than mud bricks in a torrential downpour. LPGA is way more interesting.

 

Thanks Tom for adding meaningful commentary to the discussion.

 

If you had been reading along we were comparing LIV golfers' performances in the majors to non-LIV golfers.  While the accuracy of Data Golf has been called into question, it is one of the few metrics that includes all leagues/tours.

 

And, because you seem rather unobservant, I'll point out that LIV golfers have been competing in the majors.  So, like it or not, you sort of have to care, even just a little, when they are in contention.

 

There is an LPGA sub-forum better suited to your tastes.

Edited July 21 by smashdn

[johnseg]

3 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I said that and this a long time ago, those that had seats on the OWGR board were also those that had an interest in keeping LIV out.  Hence, why it has been so hard to get anything slightly different through.

 

^That is not to say I also do not find there to be legitimate reasons not to allow LIV OWGR points.

LIV has also not tried to work within those bounds. They have just said you have to fix this for us.

[smashdn]

Just now, johnseg said:

LIV has also not tried to work within those bounds. They have just said you have to fix this for us.

 

Full agreement with that as well.

 

There are some things they should acquiesce to, others central to their league I can understand not wanting to change.  Still other aspects I think there are work-arounds for on the OWGR side of things.  Even a few head scratchers.

 

When you read through the OWGR guidelines, you can tell they were written in that way because that was how tournament golf existed.  There was nothing different, no different formats, to even need to consider.

[johnseg]

1 minute ago, smashdn said:

 

Full agreement with that as well.

 

There are some things they should acquiesce to, others central to their league I can understand not wanting to change.  Still other aspects I think there are work-arounds for on the OWGR side of things.  Even a few head scratchers.

 

When you read through the OWGR guidelines, you can tell they were written in that way because that was how tournament golf existed.  There was nothing different, no different formats, to even need to consider.

To me the biggest hang up was and still is the closed entry.

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, johnseg said:

To me the biggest hang up was and still is the closed entry.

 

Maybe that goes away when the contracts go away?  Of course they have to generate a method to promote players and from where.

[bscinstnct]

4 hours ago, TiScape said:

Already avoided nasty Subway sandwiches. Now seeing Bryson in em w/“Shooter”… 🤮 

 

🤣

 

 

*great golfer 

 

I haven’t had subway since

 

🤔 

 

2008!

 

I remember I got some for lunch and was like, “this isn’t food” 🤣

[bcjim]

7 hours ago, Mr.Cleeks said:

I respect Rahm and Bryson so much for continuing to show up and grind it out at these majors.

You have it backwards. The majors are what they *want* to play in.  They "grind it out" playing those silly, boring liv events because they *have* to fulfill their contractual obligations.

 

You make it sound like they're holding their noses and teeing it up at majors.  Literally you have it completely backwards. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, WesternRacing said:

 

And yet it’s flawed.  Fine.  Let’s just great a separate ranking called The Best Players in Golf, and only count the Majors.  I’d bet it will provide a more accurate view of who the 10-20 best players in the world really are than OWGR.

Here are the top US Open finishers.

 

You really think OWGR should be based on just 4 events?

 

 

 

[BSI99]

42 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I said that and this a long time ago, those that had seats on the OWGR board were also those that had an interest in keeping LIV out.  Hence, why it has been so hard to get anything slightly different through.

 

^That is not to say I also do not find there to be legitimate reasons not to allow LIV OWGR points.

They already gave them a laundry list of why they don't get points. Closed circuit, no cuts, no qualifying, no relegation system. They didn't fix any of these

[Holy Moses]

45 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I said that and this a long time ago, those that had seats on the OWGR board were also those that had an interest in keeping LIV out.  Hence, why it has been so hard to get anything slightly different through.

 

^That is not to say I also do not find there to be legitimate reasons not to allow LIV OWGR points.

Well, the same people that are supposedly keeping LIV out are the same ones that are giving LIV special exemptions to get in