LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[physasst]

22 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

So you know there was a meeting and in that meeting he gave them the list of demands?  I'm genuinely asking this because I don't know.  I haven't read it anywhere as I have ever missed it or it is speculation at this point.

 

I thought (and I could be wrong because I have read so much) was that LIV was supposed to be initially something akin to the WGC but more events instead of just the handful that the WGC have turned into.  Something along the lines of a UEFA Champions League type deal where the best of the best pro golfers were offered spots in the league that had guaranteed prizes, larger than typical purses, no cut and a limited field (sort of like the Hero World Challenge but 48 players instead of 18).

 

It would be like the playoffs except with the team aspect and the having contracts you would have the same roster of guys for a whole "LIV Season."

 

Obviously there are significant aspects of that assumption that have not occurred.  I am not sure which parts of the "original plan" as I understood it to be were able to be kept and which parts of current form LIV were the results of "Plans B, C and D."

 

Regarding poaching PGAT members, I don't think it was/is in the LIV agreement that the LIV players cannot go play PGAT or DPT events or majors.  Some are contractually obligated to play in the LIV events and have not been able to play in a conflicting PGAT or DPT event (Graeme McDowell and Irish Open comes to mind) but I don't think any of them are barred from playing in other events.  At least I haven't seen that.  Every players deal or contract may be different though.

 

I still thought at one point there was a way for the LIV League to exist alongside any of the pro tours and offer something unique and different to both golfers and watchers of golf.  Now I am not so sure.  I could have seen it as the "premier players" alternative to the lower tier PGAT events where they rarely attend.  That the money would draw them out to play in a week that they otherwise would not have.  Giving both lesser renown players an opening in a PGAT or DPT event and also giving the golf fan more viewing of golf in general and of the better players.

 

I think LIV golf can continue to exist, and may be able to even thrive, however, professional golfers are going to have to decide if they want to play in LIV or on the PGA tour. They cannot have it both ways. If you want to play basically exhibition golf, which is what LIV is, and make a ton of money, than go ahead....knock yourselves out. BUT, you cannot do that AND play on the PGA tour. That's the problem. Choose. One or the other. 

 

M

[Str8Putt]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

🤣 LIV is coming for that Good Good / Fore Play influencer money

 

Can Lee Westwood and Ian Poulter beat the Barstool hacks using nothing but a 5 Iron and Lob Wedge? Watch exclusively on Youtube, winner gets $25M sponsored by Aramco and Owen's Craft Mixers!

Not gonna lie I rather watch Good Good, Shiels, Finch, Fryer and a few others than PGAT event right now.

I'm a guy in my late 40's. It's a edited and produced product but I enjoy it more. 

Pro Golf for me is boring to watch now that Tiger isn't kicking butt. I miss the steroid era of baseball too.

 

[smashdn]

8 minutes ago, physasst said:

 

I think LIV golf can continue to exist, and may be able to even thrive, however, professional golfers are going to have to decide if they want to play in LIV or on the PGA tour. They cannot have it both ways. If you want to play basically exhibition golf, which is what LIV is, and make a ton of money, than go ahead....knock yourselves out. BUT, you cannot do that AND play on the PGA tour. That's the problem. Choose. One or the other. 

 

M

 

Let me ask you this, just for discussion's sake, if LIV were more like the WGC type events (but more of them and some in the US and worldwide and maybe more "delicately" scheduled) do you think that it would be better received (by all) and players could move about more freely?

 

I would also add that there should be some distinct qualifying criteria as well.  Something like top 15 players from the PGAT, top 10 from the DPT, top 8 or 5 or whatever is appropriate from the other tours to build the LIV League players.  I could see the issue being what do you do with an injury or if a guy's game just tanks?

[physasst]

4 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Let me ask you this, just for discussion's sake, if LIV were more like the WGC type events (but more of them and some in the US and worldwide and maybe more "delicately" scheduled) do you think that it would be better received (by all) and players could move about more freely?

 

I would also add that there should be some distinct qualifying criteria as well.  Something like top 15 players from the PGAT, top 10 from the DPT, top 8 or 5 or whatever is appropriate from the other tours to build the LIV League players.  I could see the issue being what do you do with an injury or if a guy's game just tanks?

 

That would be more palatable, but then you wouldn't have the "teams" and it would have to be a 72 hole event. AND the PGAT and LIV would have to agree to monetary stuff between them. Which GN would NEVER go for. 

 

M

[smashdn]

I don't guess I was clear or maybe I misunderstand, I was thinking if you finished this season top 10 or whatever, you would qualify for next year LIV events for the whole year or season.  Those top finishers would comprise your league next year.

 

Why would they have to be 72 hole events and why would that kill the team aspect?

Do the majors have monetary agreements with the tours?  Moreso the DP tour but many of those national opens are sanctioned DPT events.

[oikos1]

49 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

I thought (and I could be wrong because I have read so much) was that LIV was supposed to be initially something akin to the WGC but more events instead of just the handful that the WGC have turned into.  Something along the lines of a UEFA Champions League type deal where the best of the best pro golfers were offered spots in the league that had guaranteed prizes, larger than typical purses, no cut and a limited field (sort of like the Hero World Challenge but 48 players instead of 18).

This exactly.  GN's original concept was a limited field of the Top players playing around the world for large purses.  PGA Tour could have been a part of that.

 

It has evolved to a full fledged tour with connections to the Asian Tour and an international feeder Tour for young talent and relegation for the LIV Tour.

 

Wonder why that happened?

[lowndes]

If anybody is interesting in watching the proceeding tomorrow it can be done at the below link.  It will be broadcast via zoom.  Should be interesting:

 

https://www.cand.uscourts.gov/judges/freeman-beth-l-blf/

[bscinstnct]

12 minutes ago, lowndes said:

If anybody is interesting in watching the proceeding tomorrow it can be done at the below link.  It will be broadcast via zoom.  Should be interesting:

 

https://www.cand.uscourts.gov/judges/freeman-beth-l-blf/

[CasualLie]

15 minutes ago, lowndes said:

If anybody is interesting in watching the proceeding tomorrow it can be done at the below link.  It will be broadcast via zoom.  Should be interesting:

 

https://www.cand.uscourts.gov/judges/freeman-beth-l-blf/

 

They should live stream it on YouTube, then we can compare how many stream LIV golf vs how many just like car crashes.

[Short Pete]

23 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

This exactly.  GN's original concept was a limited field of the Top players playing around the world for large purses.  PGA Tour could have been a part of that.

 

It has evolved to a full fledged tour with connections to the Asian Tour and an international feeder Tour for young talent and relegation for the LIV Tour.

 

Wonder why that happened?

No it’s not a full fledged tour. It’s a series of invitational tournaments where you „qualify“ by taking the money. If a marquee players says yes to LIV a lesser (by the measure of Mr. Norman) player gets relegated to the Asian Tour. Will Pat Perez be relegated if he continues to play 6 over every time? No, they paid him 10 Million dollars for being part of the crude team concept. They will relegate Jediah Morgan or Turk Pettit. It’s a closed shop which doesn’t work without the best players. They have zero ranking concept, because they don’t want one.

[tatertot]

42 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

This exactly.  GN's original concept was a limited field of the Top players playing around the world for large purses.  PGA Tour could have been a part of that.

 

It has evolved to a full fledged tour with connections to the Asian Tour and an international feeder Tour for young talent and relegation for the LIV Tour.

 

Wonder why that happened?

Why would the PGA Tour want to be a part of that? Why should the PGA Tour, or anybody, be forced to do something they don't want just because Greg has rich "friends"?

[tatertot]

Has anybody noticed certain posters never respond to sensible discussion points ... they just throw stuff out, and when called out, they move on to something else?

[pingbling23]

8 hours ago, aus10KC said:

 

Who is the PGAT, they have no shareholders? So who is making all this money? It exists to put on tournaments for it's members.

 

Don't understand your comment in Bold.

 

 

I apologize, I did not think that was a complex statement.  The pga tour is comprised of professional golfers and executives that manage the tour.  And my boldened comment, as I said the tours have benefited from these players, a lifetime ban is unreasonable.

[aus10KC]

2 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Why would the PGA Tour want to be a part of that? Why should the PGA Tour, or anybody, be forced to do something they don't want just because Greg has rich "friends"?

 

I think it has been documented that the PGAT won't get involved in any endeavors like that unless it's 100% owned by the PGAT. Whether it's a VC or a foreign government. PGAT hasn't exactly said why this is... however it could be a case of interests not aligning being as they are a non profit. 

[bscinstnct]

LIV was born of some notion that, in MLB terms, every week

 

Is the All Star Game! 😃

 

Lets just get all the best players and just show them all the time!

 

Well, guess what? That ain’t life. 
 

You got big games with two great teams sometimes, but more often then not, you just got a plain old ball game. 
 

What’s wrong with that? That’s why the big games mean that much more. Do we need an liv baseball league?

 

Same as golf. You got the majors, you got your other events with lots of big names, and you got a bunch of run of the mill events in there. 

Now we got Bryson Dechambeau getting paid like Tiger. 🤣

 

Yeah, that’s gonna last ; )
 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by bscinstnct

[tatertot]

16 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

I apologize, I did not think that was a complex statement.  The pga tour is comprised of professional golfers and executives that manage the tour.  And my boldened comment, as I said the tours have benefited from these players, a lifetime ban is unreasonable.

That's like saying the United States of America benefited from Benedict Arnold, so a lifetime ban is unreasonable.

[forrester_fire]

On 8/5/2022 at 9:37 PM, bighitlama said:

 

You are exactly correct, it was a case of employment after leaving the company and you make an important point.   I think the way LIV would attack the PGAT rules would be to say the Tour had benefitted for years by having their players be independent contractors while enforcing a contract that prevented them from being independent contractors.   I think their contract would also be challenged if and I think it is, considerably more restrictive than those from other tours, DP, Asian, Australia etc...  but the main  point I was making is whether or not they broke the rules is not what will be challenged, but the rules them self will be.   There are so many levels to this as you peel back the onion.  

 

This is pretty standard for independent contractors.  Guys fighting in the UFC can't compete in any other combat sport promotion, be it MMA, boxing, professional wrestling, or submission grappling.

[aus10KC]

3 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

I apologize, I did not think that was a complex statement.  The pga tour is comprised of professional golfers and executives that manage the tour.  And my boldened comment, as I said the tours have benefited from these players, a lifetime ban is unreasonable.

 

So the very players that went to LIV benefited from the PGAT? 

 

And I know where you're going with this... you're going to say executives, but they only comprise of 2% of total expenses $33 million in 2020. 

[pingbling23]

6 minutes ago, tatertot said:

That's like saying the United States of America benefited from Benedict Arnold, so a lifetime ban is unreasonable.

The hyperbole is comical.  What does an independent contractor making a business decision to play in a different golf league have anything to do with someone betraying their country in a time of war when lives are on the line?

[forrester_fire]

On 8/8/2022 at 11:07 AM, lakecowboy said:

The PGA Tour needs to cave on this, because their product is awful outside of 3-4 tournaments a year.  Tune into any event for LIV and you know you are going to see DJ, Koepka, Bryson, Phil, Sergio, Matt Wolff, Reed, Oosthuizen, Westwood, Poulter, Stenson, Bubba at every event.  Tune into the PGA and most weeks the top 50 is no where to be found, let alone the top 15-20.

 

There's no doubt the cut line puts pressure on people, but the top players not making to the weekend makes Sunday final rounds hard to watch.  The PGA needs to copy the LIV model and contract out money for their top players showing up to more tournaments if they are going to continue to fight this.  Make the product worth watching, because right now the Majors and the Players are the only events you know everyone will be at, and only one of those is a PGA Tournament.

 

I don't watch golf for names.  I watch golf for good golf where winning an event actually means something.

 

@theodoreb I can understand your confusion, I used a couple of multi-syllable words in that post. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by forrester_fire

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

So you know there was a meeting and in that meeting he gave them the list of demands?  I'm genuinely asking this because I don't know.  I haven't read it anywhere as I have ever missed it or it is speculation at this point.

 

I thought (and I could be wrong because I have read so much) was that LIV was supposed to be initially something akin to the WGC but more events instead of just the handful that the WGC have turned into.  Something along the lines of a UEFA Champions League type deal where the best of the best pro golfers were offered spots in the league that had guaranteed prizes, larger than typical purses, no cut and a limited field (sort of like the Hero World Challenge but 48 players instead of 18).

 

It would be like the playoffs except with the team aspect and the having contracts you would have the same roster of guys for a whole "LIV Season."

 

Obviously there are significant aspects of that assumption that have not occurred.  I am not sure which parts of the "original plan" as I understood it to be were able to be kept and which parts of current form LIV were the results of "Plans B, C and D."

 

Regarding poaching PGAT members, I don't think it was/is in the LIV agreement that the LIV players cannot go play PGAT or DPT events or majors.  Some are contractually obligated to play in the LIV events and have not been able to play in a conflicting PGAT or DPT event (Graeme McDowell and Irish Open comes to mind) but I don't think any of them are barred from playing in other events.  At least I haven't seen that.  Every players deal or contract may be different though.

 

I still thought at one point there was a way for the LIV League to exist alongside any of the pro tours and offer something unique and different to both golfers and watchers of golf.  Now I am not so sure.  I could have seen it as the "premier players" alternative to the lower tier PGAT events where they rarely attend.  That the money would draw them out to play in a week that they otherwise would not have.  Giving both lesser renown players an opening in a PGAT or DPT event and also giving the golf fan more viewing of golf in general and of the better players.

I have no idea.  I’m just going off everyone saying that this great communication occurred. that the tour had opportunity to live in harmony etc. i don’t personally believe it. But it’s repeated a lot. 
 

I personally doubt that the initial plan was a stand alone series with no membership. If that was the case why would anyone object ? 
 

 

[tatertot]

11 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

The hyperbole is comical.  What does an independent contractor making a business decision to play in a different golf league have anything to do with someone betraying their country in a time of war when lives are on the line?

But you don't see the hyperbole in your comment? That the PGA Tour has benefited from the players ... like the players have given of themselves in some altruistic manner? They have been more than well compensated for any benefit they have given the PGA Tour. And their reply has been to jump at (literally) the first offer of more money.

[bladehunter]

26 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

LIV was born of some notion that, in MLB terms, every week

 

Is the All Star Game! 😃

 

Lets just get all the best players and just show them all the time!

 

Well, guess what? That ain’t life. 
 

You got big games with two great teams sometimes, but more often then not, you just got a plain old ball game. 
 

What’s wrong with that? That’s why the big games mean that much more. Do we need an liv baseball league?

 

Same as golf. You got the majors, you got your other events with lots of big names, and you got a bunch of run of the mill events in there. 

Now we got Bryson Dechambeau getting paid like Tiger. 🤣

 

Yeah, that’s gonna last ; )
 

 

Perfect post. It is indeed a microcosm of this entitled attitude.  
 

they all want tiger money.  But nobody putting I tiger work. And nobody has tiger skills. they’re like a facsimile of a facsimile.   We want an original copy. 
 

they don’t deserve more.  They’re proving to not deserve what they have.  
 

 

[pingbling23]

14 minutes ago, aus10KC said:

 

So the very players that went to LIV benefited from the PGAT? 

 

And I know where you're going with this... you're going to say executives, but they only comprise of 2% of total expenses $33 million in 2020. 

yes players have benefited from the tour.  The tour they have fostered and kept going.  It’s ridiculous for some of the players that have given 10, 20, or 30 years helping build what the tour is now and they are supposed to accept a lifetime ban and absolute ruin in professional golf because they play for another league?  It’s not about the Saudi bs, there’s to many examples that has blown that excuse out of the water.  Its fear of losing the monopoly the pga tour has enjoyed for a long time.  The pga tour wanted to act like a bully and that’s lost a lot of people that would have been on their side.  I want both tours to thrive and to coexist.  Both have ranking points, have co sanctioned events, and both allow movement from season to season if the players so choose.  

[pingbling23]

8 minutes ago, tatertot said:

But you don't see the hyperbole in your comment? That the PGA Tour has benefited from the players ... like the players have given of themselves in some altruistic manner? They have been more than well compensated for any benefit they have given the PGA Tour. And their reply has been to jump at (literally) the first offer of more money.

No, there was no hyperbole in my comment.  

[betarhoalphadelta]

4 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

yes players have benefited from the tour.  The tour they have fostered and kept going.  It’s ridiculous for some of the players that have given 10, 20, or 30 years helping build what the tour is now and they are supposed to accept a lifetime ban and absolute ruin in professional golf because they play for another league?  It’s not about the Saudi bs, there’s to many examples that has blown that excuse out of the water.  Its fear of losing the monopoly the pga tour has enjoyed for a long time.  The pga tour wanted to act like a bully and that’s lost a lot of people that would have been on their side.  I want both tours to thrive and to coexist.  Both have ranking points, have co sanctioned events, and both allow movement from season to season if the players so choose.  

 

If LIV is so great, how is a player going to LIV going to result in "absolute ruin in professional golf"?

 

If LIV is so great, what is so bad about no longer being able to play on the PGA Tour? 

 

They wanted to be paid more money to play less golf. They got their wish. Now they want to play more golf? 

 

I thought the PGA Tour was stale, and didn't treat their players properly, and these players were happy to move to friendlier shores. Now they're upset that they can't go back to the place that they were running away from?

[aus10KC]

Just now, pingbling23 said:

yes players have benefited from the tour.  The tour they have fostered and kept going.  It’s ridiculous for some of the players that have given 10, 20, or 30 years helping build what the tour is now and they are supposed to accept a lifetime ban and absolute ruin in professional golf because they play for another league?  It’s not about the Saudi bs, there’s to many examples that has blown that excuse out of the water.  Its fear of losing the monopoly the pga tour has enjoyed for a long time.  The pga tour wanted to act like a bully and that’s lost a lot of people that would have been on their side.  I want both tours to thrive and to coexist.  Both have ranking points, have co sanctioned events, and both allow movement from season to season if the players so choose.  

 

I've seen where they have been suspended, but not where they have been banned. There is a difference and I've mentioned this a bunch if this thread and the locked down thread. By using the term Banned makes the players seem like they are victims of the big bad bully(another term you use) PGAT, however they were suspended for knowingly violating PGAT member rules after being told of the consequences many times.

 

Again with this word play of bully, banned ect. This comes straight from the LIV playbook, these narratives are being crafted by PR teams that have experience in politics. 

 

Phil for example has a 2 year suspension, he hasn't been banned. I'd imagine 2 years after his last stroke on LIV he could come back to the PGAT. Maybe even sooner if he worked something out with the tour.

[tatertot]

4 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

yes players have benefited from the tour.  The tour they have fostered and kept going.  It’s ridiculous for some of the players that have given 10, 20, or 30 years helping build what the tour is now and they are supposed to accept a lifetime ban and absolute ruin in professional golf because they play for another league?  It’s not about the Saudi bs, there’s to many examples that has blown that excuse out of the water.  Its fear of losing the monopoly the pga tour has enjoyed for a long time.  The pga tour wanted to act like a bully and that’s lost a lot of people that would have been on their side.  I want both tours to thrive and to coexist.  Both have ranking points, have co sanctioned events, and both allow movement from season to season if the players so choose.  

There can't be 2 major tours ... the current model for LIV is non-sustainable, there has to be ad revenue to continue with the purses they're offering. There is a finite amount of ad revenue available in the sports world, not to mention the golf world. LIV's plan is to crash in, crush the PGA Tour, and take their ad space. That's how this works. Offer something cheaper than the competition, drive the competition out, raise your prices. In this case, replace "prices" with "commercials". The idea of the 2 co-existing is Pollyannaish to say the least. 

[CaseyC]

8 minutes ago, pingbling23 said:

...they are supposed to accept a lifetime ban and absolute ruin in professional golf because they play for another league? ...

 

Why is it "absolute ruin in professional golf"?

[GrandStranded]

17 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Just curious what JT's physical size has to do with zipping 4-irons at Gooch’s ankles?

 

Are you saying JT's swing speed is substandard?

Are you serious? Why would you even entertain such an idea in the first place?

If a guy Justin’s size ever “zipped a 4 iron” at me, Gooch or anyone else he’d be spitting teeth.