LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[idrive]

12 minutes ago, Greg_B said:

 

I can't think of anyone who has won a couple of big events who would be missed less on Tour than Smith. Zero personality, zero charisma, zero star power. He can win every single event if he leaves and nobody will notice.

 

I still hate seeing him go. Mainly because it's a win for GN in its own way.  

[idrive]

25 minutes ago, Purple Toupee said:

It’s an invitational so of course there has to be an invite.  But they invited everyone at least up to the 124th ranked player.  My point was that players didn’t need something special from Gregory.  He was inviting everyone.

 

There is a certain poster who keeps making it sound like Norman was standing on a mountaintop declaring which players are good enough to play in his tournament and only inviting the lucky ones.  It wasn’t like that at all.  Norman was inviting anyone he could because he needed warm bodies to fill up the roster.  He wanted the best players, but instead he got #124.

 

This isn’t a defense of LIV, it actually makes them look bad.  But if I see nonsense, I’m still going to point it out.

 

Boy do you know how to turn things around.  

 

You don't have any chance of just walking up and playing without an invite from GN.  Maybe the 1st tourny as they needed more players which is halerious but even those players had an invitation.

 

Hardest part to imagine is you're still beating this dead horse.

 

This will be the last time I stoop to reply to this non issue of sillyness. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice article in regard to the Law suit.

 

LIV Golf sellouts bailed on the PGA Tour. Now they want back in? (msn.com)

 

 

ALSO:  A poll at the end of the article

Do you think golfers who defected for LIV Golf should or should not be welcomed back to the PGA Tour?

Definitely should not

77%

Definitely should

9%

 

Probably should

3%

 

Probably should not

8%

Other / No opinion

Edited August 9, 2022 by idrive

[Greg_B]

20 minutes ago, idrive said:

 

I still hate seeing him go. Mainly because it's a win for GN in its own way.  

 

So perhaps we can add "no values" to that list of personality deficiencies. I wouldn't dispute it.

[bladehunter]

8 hours ago, hacker101 said:

I spend a bunch of time on the road listening to the radio and hearing arguments from both sides.  I say that I side with the home team, but what if I was in one of defectors shoes? I’ve tried to come up with an analogy that makes sense to me. The money associated with Liv is not something I can put in perspective. It may not be completely to financial scale, but here it goes.

 

I’m in the construction and ag equipment sales business. Very competitive market, unpredictable schedule and hours, but if I perform well, it can be a good living. For the sake of argument and simple math, say I make $100k per year. A competitor comes along with a new product. They offer me a five year contract plus $1m signing bonus. 

The product is good and so cheap that there is no possible way it’s profitable. Doesn’t matter…..I can’t  lose. They are still going to pay me at least double or more than what I was making with my old job and I work 1/3 less hours.  All life changing stuff. Seems like that would be very hard to turn down. Good for me and my family. Nothing illegal about it. 
 

The catch is, I only sell to the farms that have been recently purchased and are now operated by foreign countries right next to all my friends, neighbors and former customers. Would taking the easy money be worth losing what credibility and good name that I had earned among my peers and possibly hurting the local farmers ability to compete? 
 

I’d like to say I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror.

Best post on LIV yet. You’d have to literally leave town. As should these guys have to. 
 

as a 5th Gen family farm owner I salute your integrity. 

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

Cam Percy said this last week.

 

But for some reason it’s going a bit viral just now.

 

CSmith gonna get hammered with questions by the media this week!

 

 

That sucks. To see such a great putter retire so young is a crime. 

[johnseg]

8 hours ago, hacker101 said:

I spend a bunch of time on the road listening to the radio and hearing arguments from both sides.  I say that I side with the home team, but what if I was in one of defectors shoes? I’ve tried to come up with an analogy that makes sense to me. The money associated with Liv is not something I can put in perspective. It may not be completely to financial scale, but here it goes.

 

I’m in the construction and ag equipment sales business. Very competitive market, unpredictable schedule and hours, but if I perform well, it can be a good living. For the sake of argument and simple math, say I make $100k per year. A competitor comes along with a new product. They offer me a five year contract plus $1m signing bonus. 

The product is good and so cheap that there is no possible way it’s profitable. Doesn’t matter…..I can’t  lose. They are still going to pay me at least double or more than what I was making with my old job and I work 1/3 less hours.  All life changing stuff. Seems like that would be very hard to turn down. Good for me and my family. Nothing illegal about it. 
 

The catch is, I only sell to the farms that have been recently purchased and are now operated by foreign countries right next to all my friends, neighbors and former customers. Would taking the easy money be worth losing what credibility and good name that I had earned among my peers and possibly hurting the local farmers ability to compete? 
 

I’d like to say I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror.

Another factor is the company might have a short shelf life and unless they give you a lump sum bonus and not over time you may never see that $1M. I have a feeling that LIV is that way. The $125M that DJ got might be in installments and if LIV fails he never sees it.  Maybe they paid him $40M this year and LIV dies. If LIV dies he never sees the rest.

[physasst]

15 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

So your solution is to keep the monopoly and not allow any competition?  

There can be, but no professional organization is FORCED to admit members. Doesn't matter if they are independent contractors. The PGA Tour can't not allow LIV to exist, but they don't have to allow LIV players to play in THEIR organization. Have the LIV tour...Fine....but it will be separate from the PGA tour, and players have to decide which they want. 

 

M

[forrester_fire]

16 hours ago, pingbling23 said:

The hyperbole is comical.  What does an independent contractor making a business decision to play in a different golf league have anything to do with someone betraying their country in a time of war when lives are on the line?

 

Being an "independent contractor" doesn't mean you can do anything you want.  They agree to certain terms that typically prevents them from simultaneously working for a competitor.  I don't know what is so difficult to understand about that concept.

[woodriff]

Probably posted before. But this is good. If you weren’t a Dahmen fan before maybe you are now. 

[Short Pete]

Did the old pizza place give out membership cards that require him to eat his pizza exclusively there? And if he wanted to eat his pizza elsewhere he would have to bid for permission on all days his old pizza place is open? And has he signed a deal with a new pizza place that requires him to eat pizza on 14 fixed dates? And did his old pizza place refuse to sell him pizza because of his new contract?

 

Sorry Joel, this tweet sucks! But I read about what DeChambeau said redarding the pizza analogy. In that light it doesn't suck. At all!

Edited August 9, 2022 by Short Pete

[bscinstnct]

29 minutes ago, woodriff said:

Probably posted before. But this is good. If you weren’t a Dahmen fan before maybe you are now. 

 

That is a miserable excuse for a pizza

 

Im personally offended. I’d sue that place!

 

🤣

[bladehunter]

7 minutes ago, Short Pete said:

Did the old pizza place give out membership cards that require him to eat his pizza exclusively there? And if he wanted to eat his pizza elsewhere he would have to bid for permission on all days his old pizza place is open? And has he signed a deal with a new pizza place that requires him to eat pizza on 14 fixed dates? And did his old pizza place refuse to sell him pizza because of his new contract?

 

Sorry Joel, this tweet sucks!

His tweet is spot on. 
 

I said this years ago about a divorce. Family member claimed “ emotional infidelity “ and divorced her husband.  6 months into it he was happier. She was not. She was then hurling insults his way at a family gathering. Surrounded by a gaggle. I waded in and said “ leave him. Fine. But dont turn around and throw rocks. You’ll just show us all why the marriage failed to begin with. “. 
 

this is the same. There’re just showing us why they left. Their entitled attitude 

[rizzo66]

Finally Someone completely honest about their intentions !!!!

https://www.golfwrx.com/690680/grow-the-game-bullsht-they-paid-me-a-lot-of-money-feherty-on-reasons-why-he-joined-liv/?utm_source=Front&utm_medium=Blogroll_Home&utm_campaign=GolfWRX_OnSite&utm_content=unused

[physasst]

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/08/liv-golf-players-such-as-phil-mickelson-sue-the-pga-tour-in-106-page-complaint/

 

Interesting Lawyer take...

 

M

[pearcebarr]

This is purely speculation, but I wonder if the Cam Smith news was leaked by the PGA. It seems like Cam's plan was to play on the PGA Tour through the playoffs to get his end of the year bonus, before moving over to LIV. If I were him, I would keep any hint of me moving tours silent knowing how quick the PGA has been to ban folks. Wonder if the PGAT got privy to this, and created a reason to kick him off. 

[physasst]

15 minutes ago, pearcebarr said:

This is purely speculation, but I wonder if the Cam Smith news was leaked by the PGA. It seems like Cam's plan was to play on the PGA Tour through the playoffs to get his end of the year bonus, before moving over to LIV. If I were him, I would keep any hint of me moving tours silent knowing how quick the PGA has been to ban folks. Wonder if the PGAT got privy to this, and created a reason to kick him off. 

 

So far, no player has been suspended (with the exception of Phil Mickelson) until they teed it up in a LIV event. To me, the PGA Tour has been very deliberate about that. As far as I know, Cam Smith and Mark Leishman can still play PGA UNTIL they actually tee it up and hit their first ball in a LIV event. 

M

[smashdn]

16 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

1 - The players' filing claimed a lot about the PGA Tour trying to "influence" sponsors, but was light on evidence. Many of the sponsors dropping players could be explained by someone becoming toxic (Phil), the sponsor actually being more than a golf sponsor but hosting PGA Tour events, especially some that their sponsored players skipped (DJ/Graeme), or simply the fact that they didn't want to sponsor players that would only show up on YouTube. No majors to date have announced they will disallow LIV players entrance, so that's speculation. And LIV currently has not existed long enough, and does not meet the criteria needed, to be awarded OWGR points. So until/unless the LIV application is denied, the idea that the PGA Tour is stopping them from getting points is also speculative. 

 

2 - Legally there are tons of examples of independent contractors having exclusivity agreements. The PGA Tour's filing in the TRO case for the three players spelled it out quite well. The members of the PGA Tour (i.e. the players) benefit from having pooled media rights which make for larger and more valuable TV contracts. Allowing top players to play in events that are directly competing with the Tour reduces the value of the pooled rights for all of the members who are trying to make their living on the Tour. That's the basis for the Competing Events and Media Rights release clauses. PGA Tour players moonlighting on another tour harms the players trying to play that week.  

 

3 - Players have freedom of movement. The PGA Tour didn't stop them from participating in LIV events. They were perfectly free to move. They just don't get to continue to benefit from the PGA Tour if they leave. 

 

There are so many instances of this happening though.  The PGAT has not been consistent in the application of this.

[jmck]

1 hour ago, physasst said:

There can be, but no professional organization is FORCED to admit members. Doesn't matter if they are independent contractors. The PGA Tour can't not allow LIV to exist, but they don't have to allow LIV players to play in THEIR organization. Have the LIV tour...Fine....but it will be separate from the PGA tour, and players have to decide which they want. 

 

M

 

1 hour ago, forrester_fire said:

 

Being an "independent contractor" doesn't mean you can do anything you want.  They agree to certain terms that typically prevents them from simultaneously working for a competitor.  I don't know what is so difficult to understand about that concept.

 

Exactly.  Way too many people on here are acting like there's some sort of constitutionally protected immutable right to play on the PGAT.

[bladehunter]

32 minutes ago, physasst said:

https://abovethelaw.com/2022/08/liv-golf-players-such-as-phil-mickelson-sue-the-pga-tour-in-106-page-complaint/

 

Interesting Lawyer take...

 

M

Yep. Thats a well arranged way of saying what many in this thread have said. 
 

can’t be in violation of the Sherman act if you’re able to make more money than before. Nobody is impeding anyones ability to earn. 

[bscinstnct]

3 minutes ago, jmck said:

 

 

Exactly.  Way too many people on here are acting like there's some sort of constitutionally protected immutable right to play on the PGAT.

 

The other day I saw these guys breaking into a car in broad daylight 

 

Im like,

 

Hey! What the heck you doin?!

 

Guy says,

 

Don’t worry about it. We’re independent contractors

 

 

🤣

[Wasted_Talent]

Are they really independent contractors though?  They have a pension provided by the tour.  They have group healthcare provided by the tour among other things.  True independent contractors do not have these luxuries.

[ThinkingPlus]

14 minutes ago, jmck said:

 

 

Exactly.  Way too many people on here are acting like there's some sort of constitutionally protected immutable right to play on the PGAT.

"Entitled"  It's the word of the century.  LOL!

[straightsixes]

10 hours ago, hacker101 said:

I spend a bunch of time on the road listening to the radio and hearing arguments from both sides.  I say that I side with the home team, but what if I was in one of defectors shoes? I’ve tried to come up with an analogy that makes sense to me. The money associated with Liv is not something I can put in perspective. It may not be completely to financial scale, but here it goes.

 

I’m in the construction and ag equipment sales business. Very competitive market, unpredictable schedule and hours, but if I perform well, it can be a good living. For the sake of argument and simple math, say I make $100k per year. A competitor comes along with a new product. They offer me a five year contract plus $1m signing bonus. 

The product is good and so cheap that there is no possible way it’s profitable. Doesn’t matter…..I can’t  lose. They are still going to pay me at least double or more than what I was making with my old job and I work 1/3 less hours.  All life changing stuff. Seems like that would be very hard to turn down. Good for me and my family. Nothing illegal about it. 
 

The catch is, I only sell to the farms that have been recently purchased and are now operated by foreign countries right next to all my friends, neighbors and former customers. Would taking the easy money be worth losing what credibility and good name that I had earned among my peers and possibly hurting the local farmers ability to compete? 
 

I’d like to say I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror.

As a sales guy myself..  you need to make a more realistic analogy because it happens all the time. 
 

The international company pays you a lot more to take your US experience, credibility, and popularity/contacts to grow their product line worldwide. 
 

It requires more travel internationally doing the same thing you did at home.  It’s a pain because half the time you don’t speak the language, you can’t always take the family with you and jet lag is real. 
 

The “friends” from home complain because they can’t believe that 5x or 10x money is worth it.  At the same time they complain about their lives, whine about everything anyway, have the same job changing tires they had 20 yrs ago when they left high school because they are jealous as they never took a “chance”.   
 

Maybe your new company revolutionizes the ag/seed/equipment market internationally.  Maybe it fails but you collect your $$ along these and move on.   
 

There are the personality types that are early adapters and there are the rest who wait and see (complaining all the while).  Then in time the other personality types get over themselves and move on to use the good products anyway. 
 

Computers, cell phones, smart phones.  email, social media, round-up ready seed, Amazon etc.  we all complained early on, and now use all the time. 

 

There are other sports that have seen major shakeups (even bass fishing) as newer tours/companies try to come about.  Many fans complain at first then in a couple years it’s a non issue and they watch the “new” stuff after originally complaining.  
 

Something I hadn’t thought about until now… in these other sports the new tours are usually started by experienced (older) competitors who are either tired of being used OR think they can advance the game beyond its current limitations.  
 

Time will tell. 

[moora]

8 minutes ago, straightsixes said:

As a sales guy myself..  you need to make a more realistic analogy because it happens all the time. 
 

The international company pays you a lot more to take your US experience, credibility, and popularity/contacts to grow their product line worldwide. 
 

It requires more travel internationally doing the same thing you did at home.  It’s a pain because half the time you don’t speak the language, you can’t always take the family with you and jet lag is real. 
 

The “friends” from home complain because they can’t believe that 5x or 10x money is worth it.  At the same time they complain about their lives, whine about everything anyway, have the same job changing tires they had 20 yrs ago when they left high school because they are jealous as they never took a “chance”.   
 

Maybe your new company revolutionizes the ag/seed/equipment market internationally.  Maybe it fails but you collect your $$ along these and move on.   
 

 

 

 

Great analogy, there’s also another caveat.

 

Now imagine your previous employer banning you from ever working for them again. Sure, that’s understandable and does happen quite a lot in “the real world”. Except there’s a problem,  in that potentially your previous employer has contacted and colluded with the next largest employer and told them that they need to also ban you from working from them either. Plus this is in an industry where there are 4 employers and outside the top two, your salary options are low. Pretty limited options if your new employer does go bust. 

 

That seems to be one of the legal claims in this week, that the PGA Tour has colluded with the DP World Tour in order to ban those same players from playing on the DP World Tour.

[ahenderX]

31 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Thats a well arranged way of saying what many in this thread have said. 
 

can’t be in violation of the Sherman act if you’re able to make more money than before. Nobody is impeding anyones ability to earn. 

The monopoly aspect of the primary lawsuit would seem weak to me considering every professional sport/league globally is a monopoly. Collusion appears to be the biggest issue if the claims in the lawsuit are factual. I would be shocked if the Tour did in fact collude with the majors and the Tour’s vendors/partners. And I think everyone knows just because something appears in a lawsuit does not mean its true or valid.

[Barracuda]

3 hours ago, Greg_B said:

 

I can't think of anyone who has won a couple of big events who would be missed less on Tour than Smith. Zero personality, zero charisma, zero star power. He can win every single event if he leaves and nobody will notice.

On the contrary. It's refreshing watching Cam play. Pretty much every player looks and behaves the same right now.

 

Scheffler, cantlay, Fitzpatrick, those are the ones with zero charisma imo.

[Krt22]

46 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Thats a well arranged way of saying what many in this thread have said. 
 

can’t be in violation of the Sherman act if you’re able to make more money than before. Nobody is impeding anyones ability to earn. 

But they are independent contractors, they should be able to make money on top of more money!

[betarhoalphadelta]

9 hours ago, hacker101 said:

I spend a bunch of time on the road listening to the radio and hearing arguments from both sides.  I say that I side with the home team, but what if I was in one of defectors shoes? I’ve tried to come up with an analogy that makes sense to me. The money associated with Liv is not something I can put in perspective. It may not be completely to financial scale, but here it goes.

 

I’m in the construction and ag equipment sales business. Very competitive market, unpredictable schedule and hours, but if I perform well, it can be a good living. For the sake of argument and simple math, say I make $100k per year. A competitor comes along with a new product. They offer me a five year contract plus $1m signing bonus. 

The product is good and so cheap that there is no possible way it’s profitable. Doesn’t matter…..I can’t  lose. They are still going to pay me at least double or more than what I was making with my old job and I work 1/3 less hours.  All life changing stuff. Seems like that would be very hard to turn down. Good for me and my family. Nothing illegal about it. 
 

The catch is, I only sell to the farms that have been recently purchased and are now operated by foreign countries right next to all my friends, neighbors and former customers. Would taking the easy money be worth losing what credibility and good name that I had earned among my peers and possibly hurting the local farmers ability to compete? 
 

I’d like to say I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror.

 

Great post. And it highlights one of the issues with LIV. I hold two opinions re: LIV --

 

1. That for an individual golfer, the opportunity offered by LIV is good. From a purely self-interested perspective, they get more money (higher ceiling when they win, lower floor when they don't), an easier schedule, etc. 

 

2. That for the game of professional golf--for many reasons but especially for anyone outside the 48 "top" golfers who get to play there--LIV is bad. 

 

I don't expect players not to act in their own self-interest. However, if you believe (as I do) that LIV is bad for the wider golf ecosystem, then players choosing to go there moves from self-interest to selfishness. They are accepting these benefits with the full knowledge that it's going to hurt other players and the system that produced them, and simply don't care. 

[idrive]

16 minutes ago, moora said:

That seems to be one of the legal claims in this week, that the PGA Tour has colluded with the DP World Tour in order to ban those same players from playing on the DP World Tour.

 

I thought the DP did not ban their members... yet.

 

[jdl]

14 hours ago, gsrjc said:

What happened to the rumors of Charles Barkley and TNT or whatever else?  I see it as all rumors to stir the pot. 

Chuck is not going to LIV.