Strokes Gained Help

[Obee]

Also posted this in the Putting Improvement thread, but that there might be more "strokes gained" gurus who see this one.

Hello All,

 

I'd like to start doing some strokes gained tracking on my tournament rounds only. For those of you using some kind of spreadsheet, etc., what are you using? I'd love to know the strokes gained on my round from the other day:

 

Looking for a Strokes Gained Putting guru versus Tour number. What kind of day was this, strokes gained-wise. This was from my Match-Play Club Championship round on Monday. Played 21 holes all square, then lost on the 22nd hole. It felt like I putted well, but when I look back, I didn't really make anything long. Just wondering what that would have looked like.

 

Also curious about my strokes gained on approach.

 

Putting:

• 4 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot Make
• 12 feet - Miss
  • 4-inches - Make
• 45 - feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 7 feet - Make
• 70 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 3 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 6 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Make
• 17 feet - Miss
  • 9 feet - Make
• 22 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet Make
• 15 feet - Miss
• 1 foot - Make
• 2 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot- Make

 

Approach (MG = Missed Green, otherwise, GIR):

 

• 147y fwy MG to Sand 10y From Sand 10y to 4'
• 92y fwy 9' GIR
• 138y fwy 14' GIR
• 280 fwy to 139y fwy to 45' GIR
• 141y tee to 7' GIR
• 200y fwy to 70' GIR
• 212y fwy to MG fringe 42'
• 194y tee to 9' GIR
• 151y fwy to MG fringe 35'
• 220 recovery to 161y fwy to 40' green
• 157y tee to 16' GIR
• 164y fwy to 17' GIR
• 191y tee to 22' GIR
• 280 fwy to 64y fwy to 15' GIR
• 221y fwy to MG light rough 45' to 1' GIR
• 189y tee to 9' GIR
• 260 fwy to 70y fwy to 5' GIR
• 315 rough to 152 fwy to 10' GIR
• 151y fwy to 10' GIR
• 95y fwy to 9' GIR
• 128y fwy to 5' GIR
• 300y fwy to 138y rough to MG deep rough 18' to Chip 16'

Edited September 7, 2022 by Obee
Additional data.

[Ross_Albatross]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

Also posted this in the Putting Improvement thread, but that there might be more "strokes gained" gurus who see this one.

Hello All,

 

I'd like to start doing some strokes gained tracking on my tournament rounds only. For those of you using some kind of spreadsheet, etc., what are you using? I'd love to know the strokes gained on my round from the other day:

 

Looking for a Strokes Gained Putting guru versus Tour number. What kind of day was this, strokes gained-wise. This was from my Match-Play Club Championship round on Monday. Played 21 holes all square, then lost on the 22nd hole. It felt like I putted well, but when I look back, I didn't really make anything long. Just wondering what that would have looked like.

 

Also curious about my strokes gained on approach.

 

Putting:

• 4 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot Make
• 12 feet - Miss
  • 4-inches - Make
• 45 - feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 7 feet - Make
• 70 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 3 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 6 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Make
• 17 feet - Miss
  • 9 feet - Make
• 22 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet Make
• 15 feet - Miss
• 1 foot - Make
• 2 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot- Make

 

Approach (MG = Missed Green, otherwise, GIR)

• 147y MG 30'
• 92y 9'
• 138y 14'
• 139y 45'
• 141y 7'
• 200y 70'
• 212y MG 42'
• 194y 9'
• 151y MG 35'
• 161y 40'
• 157y 16'
• 164y 17'
• 191y 22'
• 64y 15'
• 221y MG 45'
• 189y 9'
• 70y 5'
• 95y 10'
• 151y 9'
• 128y 5'
• 138y MG 18'

I'll get you that - got all of this in a database; with numbers directly from Broadie (Tour data from his book)... just need the lie for all those approach shots ; tee / fairway / rough / recovery (doesn't seem like any from the shot list) / sand... and also the lie where it ended up when it's a MG (otherwise, assumption is that it's on the putting surface); fairway / rough / sand

[Ross_Albatross]

16 minutes ago, Obee said:

Also posted this in the Putting Improvement thread, but that there might be more "strokes gained" gurus who see this one.

Hello All,

 

I'd like to start doing some strokes gained tracking on my tournament rounds only. For those of you using some kind of spreadsheet, etc., what are you using? I'd love to know the strokes gained on my round from the other day:

 

Looking for a Strokes Gained Putting guru versus Tour number. What kind of day was this, strokes gained-wise. This was from my Match-Play Club Championship round on Monday. Played 21 holes all square, then lost on the 22nd hole. It felt like I putted well, but when I look back, I didn't really make anything long. Just wondering what that would have looked like.

 

Also curious about my strokes gained on approach.

 

Putting:

• 4 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot Make
• 12 feet - Miss
  • 4-inches - Make
• 45 - feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 7 feet - Make
• 70 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet - Make
• 3 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 6 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Make
• 17 feet - Miss
  • 9 feet - Make
• 22 feet - Miss
  • 2 feet Make
• 15 feet - Miss
• 1 foot - Make
• 2 feet - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Make
• 10 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot - Make
• 9 feet - Make
• 5 feet - Make
• 16 feet - Miss
  • 1 foot- Make

Few pointers on the putts list... there is a 15 feet miss followed by a 1 foot make (assumption is those were on the same green) and also, Broadie has 3 foot increment starting at 12 feet; so for example a 17 feet miss was marked as a 18 feet miss

 

You had a +3,14 strokes gained putting round versus Tour... best putt was the 16 feet make (+0,78) and worst was the 17 footer that resulted in a 9 footer (-0,73)... and for good mesure - that 70 foot miss that ended up at 2 feet had a +0,19SG... overall a tremendous putting exhibition 

[RichieHunt]

Easier tip for SG - Putting.  Don't worry about the subsequent putts.  Just measure the distance of the original putt and how many putts you had from that distance.  Then subtract those putts from the baseline average.

 

For instance, let's say you have an 8-foot putt.  We know that the average expected putts to the hole is 1.515 strokes.  So if you 2-putt from that distance all you have to do is take 1.515 - 2 = -0.485 strokes for that green.  This is how the Tour does it.  They don't count the 2nd or 3rd putts again.

 

Approach data requires the lie on the approach shot vs. the lie on where the shot ends up.  So your first approach shot of 147 yards to 30 feet, but missed the green, you need to designate if the 147 yard shot was from the fairway, rough, sand or 'rescue.'  And you need to designate if the ball ended up in the fairway, rough, sand, rescue, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Ross_Albatross]

3 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Easier tip for SG - Putting.  Don't worry about the subsequent putts.  Just measure the distance of the original putt and how many putts you had from that distance.  Then subtract those putts from the baseline average.

Agree with all you mentioned - I just prefer to track all putts distance though... for 3putt avoidance for example - knowing that I had a 54 footer that ended up to 2 feet and missing that second one... tells a different story than leaving that 54 footer 21 feet short that resulted in a 3putt (I know, extreme example but it's to illustrate the point)... although, as you mentioned, overall yields obvisouly the same SG putting overall numbers

[getitdaily]

I see "make" all over the place so I'm thinking you had sg putting of +100 and that you beat me 9&8 because I hit 16 greens and made a 4 footer as my longest putt....

 

 

Sorry this wasn't helpful...it was my nice way of saying I hate you...lol

[Ty_Webb]

8 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Easier tip for SG - Putting.  Don't worry about the subsequent putts.  Just measure the distance of the original putt and how many putts you had from that distance.  Then subtract those putts from the baseline average.

 

For instance, let's say you have an 8-foot putt.  We know that the average expected putts to the hole is 1.515 strokes.  So if you 2-putt from that distance all you have to do is take 1.515 - 2 = -0.485 strokes for that green.  This is how the Tour does it.  They don't count the 2nd or 3rd putts again.

 

 

RH

 

Agreed, but if you're capturing these stats to see where the holes are in your putting then you do need to do the deeper analysis. For example, a three putt from 45 feet could be a first putt to 9 feet and a miss or a first putt to 3 feet and a miss. First putt to 3 feet would be a gain I think, but to 9 feet would be a big loss. 

 

I've said this a few times, but putting there are two (well I guess three) types of putters. Those who are better at speed and those who are better at line (and those who suck at both). Overall strokes gained putting won't really tell you which one of those you are and which one you should work on. Short putts strokes gained is about line and long putts strokes gained is about speed. 

 

I will say that for someone who putts like @Obee he's probably looking at this as a curiosity and in that case yes, the overall SGP is certainly sufficient.

[Ross_Albatross]

48 minutes ago, Obee said:

Approach (MG = Missed Green, otherwise, GIR)

• 147y MG 30'
• 92y 9'
• 138y 14'
• 139y 45'
• 141y 7'
• 200y 70'
• 212y MG 42'
• 194y 9'
• 151y MG 35'
• 161y 40'
• 157y 16'
• 164y 17'
• 191y 22'
• 64y 15'
• 221y MG 45'
• 189y 9'
• 70y 5'
• 95y 10'
• 151y 9'
• 128y 5'
• 138y MG 18'

Suppose all those approach shots were from the fairway (very unlikely since some were from the tee box) and those 5 MG ended up in the rough... it shows a +1.78 SG approach day... for a complete picture, we would also need the 2nd shot on Par5s that weren't on that list (if there are any)... best and worst shot were the last two from that list

[Krt22]

Using this

 

https://www.golfrankingstats.com/strokes-gained-calculator/

 

You are +4.66 SG putting relative to a scratch golfer for the first 18 holes.

[Krt22]

11 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

. Short putts strokes gained is about line and long putts strokes gained is about speed. 

 

SG putting is more about speed than anything else given the line is always speed dependent plenty of people can have poor speed control on short putts. It's all about about how many you make in the 4-8 range and how well you lag it. 

[Ross_Albatross]

2 minutes ago, Krt22 said:

[...] It's all about about how many you make in the 4-8 range

I get kill from there compared to Tour data, 4-10 actually... aim help is needed... it only shows that longer make% fall off for the top guys, otherwise I'd still get kill in the middle range haha

[Obee]

45 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Easier tip for SG - Putting.  Don't worry about the subsequent putts.  Just measure the distance of the original putt and how many putts you had from that distance.  Then subtract those putts from the baseline average.

 

For instance, let's say you have an 8-foot putt.  We know that the average expected putts to the hole is 1.515 strokes.  So if you 2-putt from that distance all you have to do is take 1.515 - 2 = -0.485 strokes for that green.  This is how the Tour does it.  They don't count the 2nd or 3rd putts again.

 

Approach data requires the lie on the approach shot vs. the lie on where the shot ends up.  So your first approach shot of 147 yards to 30 feet, but missed the green, you need to designate if the 147 yard shot was from the fairway, rough, sand or 'rescue.'  And you need to designate if the ball ended up in the fairway, rough, sand, rescue, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

Thank you both. Will go back and add this extra data.

[Obee]

59 minutes ago, RichieHunt said:

Easier tip for SG - Putting.  Don't worry about the subsequent putts.  Just measure the distance of the original putt and how many putts you had from that distance.  Then subtract those putts from the baseline average.

 

For instance, let's say you have an 8-foot putt.  We know that the average expected putts to the hole is 1.515 strokes.  So if you 2-putt from that distance all you have to do is take 1.515 - 2 = -0.485 strokes for that green.  This is how the Tour does it.  They don't count the 2nd or 3rd putts again.

 

Approach data requires the lie on the approach shot vs. the lie on where the shot ends up.  So your first approach shot of 147 yards to 30 feet, but missed the green, you need to designate if the 147 yard shot was from the fairway, rough, sand or 'rescue.'  And you need to designate if the ball ended up in the fairway, rough, sand, rescue, etc.

 

 

 

 

RH

 

I went in and did this, Richie. Thank you.

[Ross_Albatross]

1 hour ago, Obee said:

Approach (MG = Missed Green, otherwise, GIR):

 

• 147y fwy MG to Sand 10y From Sand 10y to 4'
• 92y fwy 9' GIR
• 138y fwy 14' GIR
• 280 fwy to 139y fwy to 45' GIR
• 141y tee to 7' GIR
• 200y fwy to 70' GIR
• 212y fwy to MG fringe 42'
• 194y tee to 9' GIR
• 151y fwy to MG fringe 35'
• 220 recovery to 161y fwy to 40' green
• 157y tee to 16' GIR
• 164y fwy to 17' GIR
• 191y tee to 22' GIR
• 280 fwy to 64y fwy to 15' GIR
• 221y fwy to MG light rough 45' to 1' GIR
• 189y tee to 9' GIR
• 260 fwy to 70y fwy to 5' GIR
• 315 fwy to 95y fwy to 10' GIR
• 151y fwy to 10' GIR
• 95y fwy to 9' GIR
• 128y fwy to 5' GIR
• 300y fwy to 138y rough to MG deep rough 18' to Chip 16'

From this additional lie info and previous shots on Par5s... it shows a +2.42 SG App day against Tour data ... best single shot was the 128f to 5'... worst was 147f to 10s... and not wanting to rub it in, but next in line are the last 2 approach shots... 
 

As an aside... we can get the SG around the green data also if you provide the resulting putt from the two fringe shots (my assumption was 3' and 5' respectively if we look at the putting data provided earlier)... gives an overall +0.34 SG Atg day against Tour data

[Obee]

38 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

From this additional lie info and previous shots on Par5s... it shows a +2.42 SG App day against Tour data ... best single shot was the 128f to 5'... worst was 147f to 10s... and not wanting to rub it in, but next in line are the last 2 approach shots... 

 

The last two approach shots on the same hole? The par 5? 

If so, the second shot for me is very difficult due to my length. Have to play on an angle to avoid going into a creek and can't get aggressive. Have to play completely safe.

The last shot (over the green to a back pin from 138ish) I knew I had to stuff one in there because he was lying two about 35 yards away with a relatively easy shot. I chose the wrong club and paid the price, darn it.

[Ross_Albatross]

Alright @Obee - I'll try and give you the full Monte (pun intended)... from the pic that you posted of the scorecard - I tried to figure out the blue tees distances, but only came up to 6470yds, that would give the overall SG in each category for that Tourney round (was able to piece every shot/hole with the distances and lie you provided - your original post on putting seems to be missing a 40' putt on the 10th, that would match the hole score, provided from your approach shots list)...

 

With those blue tees approximation, we got:

• SG OTT : -2.31 (to be revisited if hole distance is incorrect for now) on 17 shots
• SG APP : +2.42 on 28 shots
• SG ATG : +0.34 on 5 shots
• SG PTT : +2.95 on 32 putts

Overall +3.39 SG on Tour guys on 82 shots for 22 holes

 

Assumption on blue tees distances : 360, 300, 360, 550, 140, 450, 370, 190, 390, 420, 160, 400, 190, 490, 480, 190, 490, 540... gives a 224yds driving distance average (if no layup of the tee for those 17 non Par3 holes)

[Obee]

41 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

From this additional lie info and previous shots on Par5s... it shows a +2.42 SG App day against Tour data ... best single shot was the 128f to 5'... worst was 147f to 10s... and not wanting to rub it in, but next in line are the last 2 approach shots... 
 

As an aside... we can get the SG around the green data also if you provide the resulting putt from the two fringe shots (my assumption was 3' and 5' respectively if we look at the putting data provided earlier)... gives an overall +0.34 SG Atg day against Tour data

 

That's nice to know. Of course our greens are very receptive and very few pins in "tour" spots on our greens, but that was a solid round of golf. Had a blast.

Also, I went back and made a change on 18. Confused that hole with my round from late yesterday.

[Ross_Albatross]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

The last two approach shots on the same hole? The par 5? 

If so, the second shot for me is very difficult due to my length. Have to play on an angle to avoid going into a creek and can't get aggressive. Have to play completely safe.

The last shot (over the green to a back pin from 138ish) I knew I had to stuff one in there because he was lying two about 35 yards away with a relatively easy shot. I chose the wrong club and paid the price, darn it.

Correct on the shots, both approach shots on the Par5 4th... the first of the two was 'bad' because it ended up in the rough... a lot less penal when you played it the first time and it ended up at almost the same distance but in the fairway...

 

140ish approach shot from the fairway is 2.91 strokes to hole out - while same distance from rough is 3.15 shots to hole out...

[Obee]

3 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Alright @Obee - I'll try and give you the full Monte (pun intended)... from the pic that you posted of the scorecard - I tried to figure out the blue tees distances, but only came up to 6470yds, that would give the overall SG in each category for that Tourney round (was able to piece every shot/hole with the distances and lie you provided - your original post on putting seems to be missing a 40' putt on the 10th, that would match the hole score, provided from your approach shots list)...

 

With those blue tees approximation, we got:

• SG OTT : -2.31 (to be revisited if hole distance is incorrect for now) on 17 shots
• SG APP : +2.42 on 28 shots
• SG ATG : +0.34 on 5 shots
• SG PTT : +2.95 on 32 putts

Overall +3.39 SG on Tour guys on 82 shots for 22 holes

 

Assumption on blue tees distances : 360, 300, 360, 550, 140, 450, 370, 190, 390, 420, 160, 400, 190, 490, 480, 190, 490, 540... gives a 224yds driving distance average (if no layup of the tee for those 17 non Par3 holes)

 

Those distances are all correct except 7 has a new tee and played 425.

[Ross_Albatross]

2 minutes ago, Obee said:

 

Those distances are all correct except 7 has a new tee and played 425.

With that adjustment... SG OTT went to -2.20... and driving distance up to 228yds

[Obee]

Holes where I hit driver:

1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17, 18

[Ross_Albatross]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

Holes where I hit driver:

1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 15, 17, 18

Driving distance is up to 232yds for that round... and if we want to be purists with the SG OTT values - we'd adjust for those layups shots on 2 (x2) and 14

[Krt22]

Obee is very much an outlier compared to the modern player, really makes up for his driving distance with stellar approach play and putting

[pantsparty7]

I get something different. I made an assumption about your data...

[Ross_Albatross]

3 minutes ago, pantsparty7 said:

I get something different. I made an assumption about your data...

You're missing a 40' putt on the 10th... that wasn't included in the putts list - but can be seen from the approach data provided... otherwise we're very close

[Obee]

Thanks so much everyone. Really appreciate this. I want to start tracking my tournament rounds only. Too many non-tournament rounds I show up to the course 5 minutes before tee time. Don't hit a single ball or putt and I'm on my phone the entire round, and I will play injured. With tournaments I get ready to play and try to stay focused all 18 holes. I also won't play if I'm injured, I will just WD.

 

So I want to see what my strokes gained look like over a whole year as a certified short-hitting senior who tracks every competitive round I play.

[Ross_Albatross]

13 minutes ago, Obee said:

Thanks so much everyone. Really appreciate this. I want to start tracking my tournament rounds only. Too many non-tournament rounds I show up to the course 5 minutes before tee time. Don't hit a single ball or putt and I'm on my phone the entire round, and I will play injured. With tournaments I get ready to play and try to stay focused all 18 holes. I also won't play if I'm injured, I will just WD.

 

So I want to see what my strokes gained look like over a whole year as a certified short-hitting senior who tracks every competitive round I play.

Awesome - and the last part is key... SG is interesting as it shows, in the long run, what are our weakenesses / strenghts from a factual point of view... we all know that SG on a hole / round is fun to look at but pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme of it all - not every shot being created equal

[Obee]

1 hour ago, MtlJayMan said:

Driving distance is up to 232yds for that round... and if we want to be purists with the SG OTT values - we'd adjust for those layups shots on 2 (x2) and 14

That driving distance is right about where I would expect it to be. If I kill a drive, I hit it 255. But I hit plenty off the toe or heel and hit it 225. The one drive that hurt me was 10 where I pulled it into the trees.

[Ross_Albatross]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

That driving distance is right about where I would expect it to be. If I kill a drive, I hit it 255. But I hit plenty off the toe or heel and hit it 225. The one drive that hurt me was 10 where I pulled it into the trees.

Definitely the outlier... that one got -0.90 SG while all the other drives hover in the [-0,23 to +0,04] range

[Obee]

3 minutes ago, MtlJayMan said:

Definitely the outlier... that one got -0.90 SG while all the other drives hover in the [-0,23 to +0,04] range

 

How could I EVER have a drive where I gain a stroke? What drive was that?

Edited September 7, 2022 by Obee