Accidentally touching a ball in play with a club

[Augster]

I can’t find it and give up. 
 

My ball was in the rough. A few leaves in the area. I start moving the leaves around with the head of my club to get them out of the way and inadvertently bump my ball. The ball oscillates and seems to stay in the same position/orientation of the mark. 
 

Is there a penalty? I know there is if a ball “moves”, as defined, but I thought there was a penalty just for touching your ball in play unless directed by a Rule. But I can’t find it. 
 

Let me know. 
 

Thanks. 

[davep043]

9.4b penalizes the player if he lifts, deliberately touches, or causes his ball to move.  An accidental touch is not mentioned, so is not penalized.  Accidental movement is penalized, but if the ball only oscillated, you didn't move it.

[Augster]

2 minutes ago, davep043 said:

9.4b penalizes the player if he lifts, deliberately touches, or causes his ball to move.  An accidental touch is not mentioned, so is not penalized.  Accidental movement is penalized, but if the ball only oscillated, you didn't move it.

I must still be stuck in the old rules then. I’d have thought all of that would have been beaten out of me in 4 years. Ugh. 
 

I’m reading those sections, over and over, and now I need KVC to even penalize myself for moving the ball. I have to have KVC that it actually moved, as defined, to penalize myself and replace it.
 

The way “moved” is defined, it seems we are only talking a ball moved where we can see it (naked eye), and not microscopically or any of that nonsense. 
 

So, it looked to be in the same spot to my eye. Because of that, I don’t have KVC it moved, as defined, so I play it as it lies no penalty. 
 

Interesting. I took the penalty I thought applied. Now I know. 
 

I think. 🙂

 

Thanks for the help. 
 

Question: It was a casual round, do I go back into my scoring record and take the 1SP off and edit the score?  I didn’t actually “sign” for any score, or whatever, and all the bets have been paid out. 
 

I think, ethically, I should post the score with 1 stroke less. It’s a keeper score, so I feel guilty if I posted a score too high. 
 

Should I change it? I think I should. 
 

Thanks!

 

 

 

[rogolf]

36 minutes ago, Augster said:

I must still be stuck in the old rules then. I’d have thought all of that would have been beaten out of me in 4 years. Ugh. 
 

I’m reading those sections, over and over, and now I need KVC to even penalize myself for moving the ball. I have to have KVC that it actually moved, as defined, to penalize myself and replace it.
 

The way “moved” is defined, it seems we are only talking a ball moved where we can see it (naked eye), and not microscopically or any of that nonsense. 
 

So, it looked to be in the same spot to my eye. Because of that, I don’t have KVC it moved, as defined, so I play it as it lies no penalty. 
 

Interesting. I took the penalty I thought applied. Now I know. 
 

I think. 🙂

 

Thanks for the help. 
 

Question: It was a casual round, do I go back into my scoring record and take the 1SP off and edit the score?  I didn’t actually “sign” for any score, or whatever, and all the bets have been paid out. 
 

I think, ethically, I should post the score with 1 stroke less. It’s a keeper score, so I feel guilty if I posted a score too high. 
 

Should I change it? I think I should. 
 

Thanks!

 

 

 

One point about the definition and "naked eye".  It's not whether you (the player) saw it move, it's about whether the movement could have been detected by anyone's "naked eye" after taking all of the available evidence into consideration.  In other words, it's not entirely dependent on what you saw or didn't see.

[antip]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

I must still be stuck in the old rules then. I’d have thought all of that would have been beaten out of me in 4 years. Ugh. 
 

I’m reading those sections, over and over, and now I need KVC to even penalize myself for moving the ball. I have to have KVC that it actually moved, as defined, to penalize myself and replace it.
 

The way “moved” is defined, it seems we are only talking a ball moved where we can see it (naked eye), and not microscopically or any of that nonsense. 
 

So, it looked to be in the same spot to my eye. Because of that, I don’t have KVC it moved, as defined, so I play it as it lies no penalty. 
 

Interesting. I took the penalty I thought applied. Now I know. 
 

I think. 🙂

 

Thanks for the help. 
 

Question: It was a casual round, do I go back into my scoring record and take the 1SP off and edit the score?  I didn’t actually “sign” for any score, or whatever, and all the bets have been paid out. 
 

I think, ethically, I should post the score with 1 stroke less. It’s a keeper score, so I feel guilty if I posted a score too high. 
 

Should I change it? I think I should. 
 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Under the rules, you have submitted your card, so that number can not now go down if you have accidentally overstated your score. (The alternate of permitting subsequent adjustments of the kind you propose would be chaos everywhere.)

[Dpavs]

I am making the assumption that you were trying to identify the ball in the process and if so I think this is covered under 7.4 -

7.4 Ball Accidentally Moved in Trying to Find or Identify It

There is no penalty if the player’s ball is accidentally moved by the player, opponent or anyone else while trying to find or identify it.

If this happens, the ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2). In doing so:

• If the ball was on, under or against any immovable obstruction, integral object, boundary object or growing or attached natural object, the ball must be replaced on its original spot on, under or against such object (see Rule 14.2c).

• If the ball was covered by sand, the original lie must be re-created and the ball must be replaced in that lie (see Rule 14.2d(1)). But the player may leave a small part of the ball visible when doing so.

 

If however you were only removing the leaves as loose impediments then it's covered under Rule 15.1 b-

However as pointed out a ball is only deemed to have moved if actually changes its position and does not merely wobble back into place-

 

15.1  Loose Impediments

a. Removal of Loose Impediment

You may remove a loose impediment without penalty anywhere on or off the course, and may do so in any way (such as by using your hand or foot or a club or other equipment).

But there are two exceptions:

Exception 1 – Removing Loose Impediment Where Ball Must Be Replaced.

Exception 2 – Restrictions on Deliberately Removing Loose Impediments to Affect Ball in Motion.

 For more information on the Exceptions.

b. Ball Moved When Removing Loose Impediment

If your removal of a loose impediment causes your ball to move, your ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated).

If your moved ball had been at rest anywhere except on the putting green or in the teeing area, you get one penalty stroke.

 

(Ball) Moved

When your ball at rest has left its original spot and come to rest on any other spot, and this can be seen by the naked eye (whether or not anyone actually sees it do so).

This applies whether your ball has gone up, down or horizontally in any direction away from its original spot.

If your ball only wobbles (sometimes referred to as oscillating) and stays on or returns to its original spot, your ball has not moved.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Dpavs

[Augster]

Thanks, but that wasn’t it. 
 

My ball was found and ID’d. I was just tidying up leaves that were around it but not touching the ball. Carelessly. With my club. 

[bcjim]

I had a similar situation Saturday, ball in rough next to par 3 green. Found it no problem, picked a few leaves that were not even that close to the ball, took a few practice swings 5-8" inches from the ball. Planned to hit a floppy kind of shot, so they were aggressive swings. Addressed ball mostly hovering the club and the ball began to slowly sink in the grass.  At some point I just hit the shot and moved on and since I was by myself it didn't matter.  But I did wonder what I would have done otherwise. Replace it? How?  It was a fluffy lie on top of thick wet rough. I doubt I could recreate it and have the ball stay.

[sui generis]

2 hours ago, bcjim said:

I had a similar situation Saturday, ball in rough next to par 3 green. Found it no problem, picked a few leaves that were not even that close to the ball, took a few practice swings 5-8" inches from the ball. Planned to hit a floppy kind of shot, so they were aggressive swings. Addressed ball mostly hovering the club and the ball began to slowly sink in the grass.  At some point I just hit the shot and moved on and since I was by myself it didn't matter.  But I did wonder what I would have done otherwise. Replace it? How?  It was a fluffy lie on top of thick wet rough. I doubt I could recreate it and have the ball stay.

 

The first question you must ask yourself is the second  question that the referee who was called to the scene of the crime would ask you, "Did you cause the ball to move?"

Edited October 4, 2022 by sui generis
See next post. 😃

[rogolf]

1 minute ago, sui generis said:

 

The first question you must ask yourself is the very same question that the referee who was called to the scene of the crime would ask you, "Did you cause the ball to move?"

Or the referee could also ask an open question, "Tell me what happened here?"  And then make his/her judgement on the facts presented.

 

[Augster]

On 10/3/2022 at 7:32 PM, bcjim said:

I had a similar situation Saturday, ball in rough next to par 3 green. Found it no problem, picked a few leaves that were not even that close to the ball, took a few practice swings 5-8" inches from the ball. Planned to hit a floppy kind of shot, so they were aggressive swings. Addressed ball mostly hovering the club and the ball began to slowly sink in the grass.  At some point I just hit the shot and moved on and since I was by myself it didn't matter.  But I did wonder what I would have done otherwise. Replace it? How?  It was a fluffy lie on top of thick wet rough. I doubt I could recreate it and have the ball stay.

Did you feel you caused the ball to move by your actions? Or did it move by gravity?

 

You have to have KVC that YOU moved it to take the penalty and replace it. 
 

Otherwise, if you can’t say you moved it with 95% certainty, play it as it lies. No penalty. 
 

If you’re KVC your actions did cause it to move, you take your penalty and just replace it as best you can. 
 

Lastly, I’m happy to report I haven’t accidentally touched or moved my ball since I started this post. With more leaves falling every day, it’s just a matter of time before I’m careless again I’m sure. 🙂

[Mr. Bean]

On 10/4/2022 at 3:32 AM, bcjim said:

I had a similar situation Saturday, ball in rough next to par 3 green. Found it no problem, picked a few leaves that were not even that close to the ball, took a few practice swings 5-8" inches from the ball. 

 

I would not dare to take practice swings touching grass/ground THAT close to a ball. Even vibrations of the ground caused by the impact of the club just might cause the ball to sink in the grass.

[davep043]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

I would not dare to take practice swings touching grass/ground THAT close to a ball. Even vibrations of the ground caused by the impact of the club just might cause the ball to sink in the grass.

Agree completely.  Even if you don't have KVC that your vibrations caused the ball to sink, its in a tougher lie when its deeper in the grass.