Stiffer shafts in long irons?

[Yacho]

Hello all!  My first post here at GolfWRX.  What a wealth of information this place is for the golf tech-head!  So cool...

 

I'm a fairly new golfer, just picking up the game back when covid shut down the rest of the world, but since then have ran head first down the rabbit hole of equipment tech with reckless abandon, a few matches, and a can of gasoline.  I've tried to educate myself as much as possible via these forums, watched piles of YouTube, and in the spirit of personal experimentation, I now own 9 different iron sets (mostly fun vintage blade sets), 7 drivers, and more putters than pairs of underwear.  All in now, it seems.

 

My question stems from my experience with these different iron sets I've been playing.  I'm about a 16hcp with most of my additional strokes coming from my terrible putting, short game, and errant driver bombs, but I'm decent with my irons.  I swing at a fairly relaxed and even tempo (83mph 7i), and thus prefer Reg flex shafted irons. For the sake of a general standard, lets just say DG R300.  However, the longer irons in the set (6i to 3i) feel a bit too whippy and out of control to me, and I lose location of the club head through the swing.  Likewise, when I play sets shafted in Stiff flex (DG S300, S400), the long irons feel "right" to me, while the bottom of the bag feels boardy and seems like I'm working against the club.

 

This seems to be an uncommon preference, apparently, as most of my research has turned up references of most people wanting the exact opposite in order to get higher launch out of the long irons.  I have no such problem with height when swinging stiffer shafted long irons, fwiw.  As luck would have it, I actually found a used 3i of my gamer set shafted with Rifle FCM 6.0 flighted, snatched it up, and put it head-to-head against the reg flex 3i from my set, and went to work on the Mevo. After about 50 shots back and forth, not only did the stiffer club feel better through the swing, but it performed better in terms of dispersion and shot shape as well.  Call me sold.

 

So...  what do I do if I want a progressively descending stiffness through the bag?  is there such a shaft package out there for me?  I've read up on frequency matching, MOI matching, flighted, etc., but unless I've misunderstood something, none of these techniques will get me where I want to go.  All I can think of doing is to get four DG S300 3i shafts, stick one in the 3i, softstep the next one for the 4i, 2x softstep the 5i, etc., until I can get to the point of matching up to the relative stiffness of a stock R300 in the 7i or something, and use those down to the bottom.

 

Am I nutz?  Thanks Y'all!

 

 

[jarediogolf]

Congrats! Your in way too deep way too fast and that’s awesome. 
 

1. you already on your 9th set of irons, what’s the harm in a 10th set?… so don’t sweat it, experiment and have fun. 
 

2. Yeah, you are going in an opposite direction than most so you will not find a “package” that will suit you. I can see you wanting stiffer shafts in the long irons because subconsciously we tend to swing those clubs harder than the short irons especially early on. So if stiffer feels better go for it. 
 

3. Your preferences and feels will probably change so build a set, see what happens, and eventually move on to something more traditional. Or maybe you will love it forever idk 🤷‍♂️.  
 

I think the easiest way to do what you want is to get some .370 hosel irons. Buy some R flex .370 shafts and tip trim in 1/4” increments instead on the typical 1/2” increments. 
 

So dynamic gold tip trimming…

instead of tip trimming:

PW: 4.5 / 9: 4.0 / 8: 3.5 / 7: 3.0 / 6: 2.5 / 5: 2.0 / 4: 1.5 / 3: 1.0…

 

You could do: 

PW: 4.5 / 9: 4.25 / 8: 4.0 / 7: 3.75 / 6: 3.5 / 5: 3.25 / 4: 3.0 / 3: 2.75

So the 3 is hard stepped 3.5 times. 
4 - 3 steps

5 - 2.5 steps

6 - 2 steps

7 - 1.5 steps firmer

8 - 1 step firmer

9 - 1/2 step firmer

PW - normal reg flex

Let us know how your project turns out. 

[Yacho]

Thanks for the idea, J! 

It's totally possible that I'm swinging harder as the target yardage goes up, but i dunno, it feels right, and my gapping is ok. I guess what I'm really after is to feel a consistent amount of shaft deflection through a set of irons, and I just don't seem to get that with anything off the rack.  FWIW, I do play stiff shafts in driver and fairways, and swing driver at ~ 108.

 

.370 parallels you're talking about, I imagine...  So does a 3.5 hard-step get me in the realm of an S300 then?  I'm assuming I would then stagger the cuts on the butt end then to get back to standard lengths across the set. 

 

Also, lets just pretend I've already got set #10 to play around with, but they're .355 heads 🙃.  I wouldn't want to have to do any machining and bore them out to .370 to try this. Can I hard-step these in any way like you mentioned, or do I have to come up with something a little more crazy?

 

Thanks!

[jarediogolf]

Taper tip shafts are already tipped so you got to work in terms of moving shafts. 
 

If it were me and it was a 3-PW set…

I’d do this: 

3i: stiff 3 iron shaft = stiff 3 iron

4i: stiff 3 iron shaft = stiff soft stepped

5i: stiff 3 iron shaft = stiff soft stepped x2

6-PW: the reg flex shafts as normal. 
 

That would be pretty progressive and not too weird. 

[Ger21]

Maybe you just haven't found a set of shafts that really fits you well?

[Wham49]

I'm sure you swing harder when you have to hit it farther totally natural, seasoned golfers do it sometimes too, that is why I have stiffer shafts in my longer irons and tip them, so when I am an idiot and go after a 3 i it doesnt go too far off line, I like them heavier too it gives a little smoother swing IMO

[Yacho]

 

1 hour ago, Wham49 said:

I'm sure you swing harder when you have to hit it farther

 

Thanks for jumping in!  Good to know I'm not the only one out there like this

 

Yeah, like I said, totally possible/probable.  I'll run through the bag hitting shots on the Mevo to confirm or deny this, but of course the conclusion might be irrelevant to actually solving my issue.  If all my swings feel smooth and not over-corked as I get into the 5,4 and 3i, and I still see an unnatural non-linear ascent in club speed, I suppose my options are to either start swinging unnaturally and learn to lay off the gas as I go up, or fine-tune the equipment to fit the curve...  I do believe I'm in the "WRX Club Tech" forum 🤣 

 

Also, I'm pretty tuned in to when I swing too hard (or too light, for that matter)...  when I'm off pace everything goes to $h!t and the results show.  And, maybe totally irrelevant, but in terms of my experience level, yeah I'm a rookie from the calendar's viewpoint, but by now I have almost 200 rounds under my belt and a neighbor with a garage sim that we hit on twice a week or so.  By no means am I implying I know everything (or anything!) but just hoping to let you know what level I'm at in terms of "feels" and swing consistency.

[Yacho]

2 hours ago, Ger21 said:

Maybe you just haven't found a set of shafts that really fits you well?

 

Yep, precisely what I'm after... 

 

It feels like I'm at the experience level where I know what I want out of my equipment now, just...   what is it and does it exist?  So many shaft options out there these days, there's gotta be something.

 

I think I'm gonna try jarediogolf's soft-step idea on some 3i pulls as an experimental starting point.

[Cwebb]

It doesn't have to be really complicated.  There was a well known player on tour who played standard install in his long irons down to the 7i, then soft-stepped the 8i on down.  Which was simply installing the same "discreet length" taper shaft in both the 7i and 8i and butt cutting them to their lengths.

 

You might try something like this first, before going more complex.  Just figure out where in your set the shaft starts to feel a little stiff and start your soft-step at that club

[Wham49]

2 hours ago, Yacho said:

 

 

Thanks for jumping in!  Good to know I'm not the only one out there like this

 

Yeah, like I said, totally possible/probable.  I'll run through the bag hitting shots on the Mevo to confirm or deny this, but of course the conclusion might be irrelevant to actually solving my issue.  If all my swings feel smooth and not over-corked as I get into the 5,4 and 3i, and I still see an unnatural non-linear ascent in club speed, I suppose my options are to either start swinging unnaturally and learn to lay off the gas as I go up, or fine-tune the equipment to fit the curve...  I do believe I'm in the "WRX Club Tech" forum 🤣 

 

Also, I'm pretty tuned in to when I swing too hard (or too light, for that matter)...  when I'm off pace everything goes to $h!t and the results show.  And, maybe totally irrelevant, but in terms of my experience level, yeah I'm a rookie from the calendar's viewpoint, but by now I have almost 200 rounds under my belt and a neighbor with a garage sim that we hit on twice a week or so.  By no means am I implying I know everything (or anything!) but just hoping to let you know what level I'm at in terms of "feels" and swing consistency.

on 3-4 i's I focus on tempo and being smooth, it is very hard to as I want to jump on it, but that helps

[rbpwrx]

Your experience is the same as mine, and I've been at this 40 years. I play stiffer and stiffer as I go longer, and softer in the short clubs. So I'm TX 70/85/105 in my Dr/3w/Hy, X7 or C-Taper 130X in my driving iron, CT130s in my 4i-PW, and Rifle 7.0 Spinners in my wedges. And that's not too different from most guys on tour. Congrats, you're normal!

[Yacho]

4 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

Congrats, you're normal!

 

Seems like quite the pain in the --- to find iron shafts for being so normal then! 😆

 

I took some swings with my reg flex shafted gamer set for some club speed numbers from 7i to 3i tonight.  Here's how the averages came out, 5 shots each:

 

7i: 81.8mph

6i: 83.6

5i: 84.9

4i: 86.7

3i: 88.7

and the 3i shafted with the Rifle 6.0: 90.5mph

 

I haven't done any searching yet to see if these speeds are strangely gapped, but if anyone sees any red flags here, lemme know.

 

One thing of note though, is that I love the feel of this set from 7i - GW.  My pace and tempo seem to lock in perfectly with the "motor" of the shaft.  Now technically, the amount of shaft deflection will decrease as the shafts get shorter...  BUT, it is at this point (8i) that the swingweights start gradually increasing as well, going from D2 in the 7i to D6 in the GW, possibly counteracting the gradually stiffer shafts and making the short irons ultimately feel more consistent in flex to me. I could, of course, carry this theory up the set and gradually lighten the SW as I climb to the 3i, but I've noticed I don't much appreciate clubs that SW any less than D1, so, maybe not.  So far the multiple SS dance looks like the play.

 

SIDE NOTE:  It appears as if I'm limited to 5 posts in a 24hr period here as a new member of GolfWRX.  I very much appreciate everybody's contributions even though I won't be able to respond in a timely manner to say as much.

 

Cheers!

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Yacho

[Wham49]

15 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

Your experience is the same as mine, and I've been at this 40 years. I play stiffer and stiffer as I go longer, and softer in the short clubs. So I'm TX 70/85/105 in my Dr/3w/Hy, X7 or C-Taper 130X in my driving iron, CT130s in my 4i-PW, and Rifle 7.0 Spinners in my wedges. And that's not too different from most guys on tour. Congrats, you're normal!

surprised at the spinners, Im guessing you dont need the extra spin judging by your other shaft choices, don't you get too much spin from those, or are they primarily for half shots

[rbpwrx]

4 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

surprised at the spinners, Im guessing you dont need the extra spin judging by your other shaft choices, don't you get too much spin from those, or are they primarily for half shots

Yes, I swing my wedges differently from irons - more arms, less turn, for accuracy. I just like the soft but heavy feel of the 140g 7.0 spinners. BUT, I get along fine with CT130s, S400s, even X100s in my wedges. Do NOT love X7s in my wedges, at least standard straight-in. Significantly soft-stepped might be a different story. What do you play in irons vs wedges?

[rbpwrx]

11 hours ago, Yacho said:

 

Seems like quite the pain in the --- to find iron shafts for being so normal then! 😆

 

I took some swings with my reg flex shafted gamer set for some club speed numbers from 7i to 3i tonight.  Here's how the averages came out, 5 shots each:

 

7i: 81.8mph

6i: 83.6

5i: 84.9

4i: 86.7

3i: 88.7

and the 3i shafted with the Rifle 6.0: 90.5mph

 

I haven't done any searching yet to see if these speeds are strangely gapped, but if anyone sees any red flags here, lemme know.

 

One thing of note though, is that I love the feel of this set from 7i - GW.  My pace and tempo seem to lock in perfectly with the "motor" of the shaft.  Now technically, the amount of shaft deflection will decrease as the shafts get shorter...  BUT, it is at this point (8i) that the swingweights start gradually increasing as well, going from D2 in the 7i to D6 in the GW, possibly counteracting the gradually stiffer shafts and making the short irons ultimately feel more consistent in flex to me. I could, of course, carry this theory up the set and gradually lighten the SW as I climb to the 3i, but I've noticed I don't much appreciate clubs that SW any less than D1, so, maybe not.  So far the multiple SS dance looks like the play.

 

SIDE NOTE:  It appears as if I'm limited to 5 posts in a 24hr period here as a new member of GolfWRX.  I very much appreciate everybody's contributions even though I won't be able to respond in a timely manner to say as much.

 

Cheers!

 

The good news is, you're all set on 7i-GW (at least for now).
AND, looks like Rifle 6.0 is a good fit in longer irons. Have you tried 3i-6i in Rifle 6.0?
Another option is to shaft in groups of 3 - Pw/Sw/Lw R300, 7i/8i/9i R400, 4i/5i/6i S200, 3i S300, or similar.
I've actually been experimenting with weird stepping for a long time. Once built a set of 3i-Pw irons using JUST 8i shafts. 3i had an 8i shaft (HSx5), Lw had an 8i shaft (SSx4), and everything in between. So only the 8i was standard. (Got a cheap batch of Tour Concept X1 shafts on eBay and threw them in an old set of blades.)
I found this set very playable - loved the firmness in the longer irons, and the softness in the wedges.
My gamer set is an approximation of this (stiffer longs, softer shorts).
I encourage finding what works, and trusting it. If it feels good and you're getting good results, you're on the right track.
More good news: steel shafts are cheap to experiment with. And they'll give you good info for the expensive clubs.

 

BTW, if you're not diving in there yet, here's what I've found:
Clubs that jump 2" in length need to be significantly lighter AND stiffer, one from the other. For example, I'm playing a pretty light TX driver - between 65 and 75g, depending on the day - a midweight 3w @ 85g, and a heavier hybrid @ 105g. All X or TX flex, but the profile makes a big difference here.
I like to hit driver on a rail, with slight fade, so a linear profile, very stiff works best for me. The 3w I want to be able to draw, so a little more mid bend. And the hybrid I want to be able to elevate, so a little more give at the tip.
These are small distinctions - all stout shafts, and all a lot lighter than steel - but the 3 long clubs are finicky thoroughbreds, with current graphite tech and fancy heads. And my top end is still a work in progress,
Honestly, I scored at least as well when we all played X100s in our woods.

Anyway, if you're like a lot of guys, the longer the club gets, the lighter AND stiffer you *may* want your shaft. YMMV!

[Wham49]

22 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

Yes, I swing my wedges differently from irons - more arms, less turn, for accuracy. I just like the soft but heavy feel of the 140g 7.0 spinners. BUT, I get along fine with CT130s, S400s, even X100s in my wedges. Do NOT love X7s in my wedges, at least standard straight-in. Significantly soft-stepped might be a different story. What do you play in irons vs wedges?

pretty basic 3 is the I think 125 steelfiber x flex, 4-9 are x100's, half inch tip on the 4 and 5, 48 vokey is an x100, 56/62 just the wedge flex vokeys, I dont really swing those 2 more than half, so can get away with it

[rbpwrx]

5 minutes ago, Wham49 said:

pretty basic 3 is the I think 125 steelfiber x flex, 4-9 are x100's, half inch tip on the 4 and 5, 48 vokey is an x100, 56/62 just the wedge flex vokeys, I dont really swing those 2 more than half, so can get away with it

Interesting, how do you like that Steelfiber 125?
Been curious to try that, along with the MMT.
And 1/2" tip on the X100 taper tip? No problem fitting those in a TT head, or did you have to bore them out slightly? Curious, why tip instead of hard step?
Vokey wedge flex is same as DG, correct?

[Wham49]

6 minutes ago, rbpwrx said:

Interesting, how do you like that Steelfiber 125?
Been curious to try that, along with the MMT.
And 1/2" tip on the X100 taper tip? No problem fitting those in a TT head, or did you have to bore them out slightly? Curious, why tip instead of hard step?
Vokey wedge flex is same as DG, correct?

no actiually, I do it all the time, I think the taper is longer than most people think, It wasnt very tight to begin with on my Titleists. I like the steelfiber, I did it on a whim becasue I was gifted the shaft, and it is very nice, 

 

I feel like the tip gives me more control and a more boring flight traj.. 

not sure aboutr how the vokey compares, I just know that it fits me pretty well, on the long wedges no, but 56 and hogher loft works great

[Yacho]

4 hours ago, rbpwrx said:

More good news: steel shafts are cheap to experiment with. And they'll give you good info for the expensive clubs.

 

Totally.  That's where I'm at right now.  Trying to dial in my preferences on the cheap with some iron heads I know really well, so when I'm ready to pull the trigger on something shiny, I'm not running it back in 10 rounds or wondering if I should've gone a different route while I'm standing over the next shot.  Easy enough to sell a basic "off the shelf" set if I don't like it and try something else, but a group of sticks built like we're talking about...

 

That 8 iron shafted "hard-stepped, soft-stepped" set is intriguing.  Did you SW or MOI match them at all?  And that method clearly didn't carry forward for you...  any reason why?

Edited November 4, 2022 by Yacho

[rbpwrx]

2 hours ago, Yacho said:

 

Totally.  That's where I'm at right now.  Trying to dial in my preferences on the cheap with some iron heads I know really well, so when I'm ready to pull the trigger on something shiny, I'm not running it back in 10 rounds or wondering if I should've gone a different route while I'm standing over the next shot.  Easy enough to sell a basic "off the shelf" set if I don't like it and try something else, but a group of sticks built like we're talking about...

 

That 8 iron shafted "hard-stepped, soft-stepped" set is intriguing.  Did you SW or MOI match them at all?  And that method clearly didn't carry forward for you...  any reason why?

Oh, that set works fine. I still have it. I just prefer C-Taper 130s, and I can rarely find a set, much less all 8-irons!
So I made do by beefing up the driving iron and softening the wedges. But it's still a bit of a lurch to go from the Pw to the Gw.
I'm aiming for a more seamless transition. Whenever KBS gets out from under their supply chain issues, I'm going to order an iron set 4i-8i with an extra 4i for my 3i (HSx1) and an extra (5) 8-iron shafts (!) for 9i thru Lw (SSx1-5). Sounds drastic, but you're just keeping or losing a little of the handle from the exact same adjacent shaft.
I'm going to do the same with a set of X7s, funds permitting, except the whole thing one extra SS.

And no, I don't bother with swingweight or anything other conventional measure. IME, trying to get SW the same does more harm than good, esp w/ brass tip weights. HATE those things.
I do check head weight, and try to keep them evenly stepped. Lead tape behind the sweetspot is fine.

My basic understanding is, iron shafts are all essentially the same weight at the same length through the set. Certainly that's true for parallel tips. So it's the 'same shaft' in every iron. Same character.
We're just varying how much tip we keep vs butt, and what the total length is. Heavier head makes it more whippy, but shorter length makes it less. Adjusting the amount of tip or handle allows us to fine-tune that balance.
Ultimately, it's whatever works. For my game, for whatever reason, I like a firmer feel in the longest irons, and softer in the shortest. As always, YMMV.

[Yacho]

Update

--------

 

Alright.  After spending well over 25 minutes at the local thrift store pulling every 2, 3, and 4 iron out the Magical Golf Bin of Wonder and Possibility, checking them for length, flex, and straightness like some complete OCD lunatic (read: Clerks - egg guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUC5YufhcYc), I was able to find some applicable orphan donor clubs that I could use for experimentation.  They were fitted with true temper TT Lites in S flex, and some quick on-site research verified that they might match up decently with the rest of my set. 

 

My gamers are a set of Hogan FTX's from 2004, which I love and have recently acquired a backup set of, and are fitted with Apex 3 shafts (considered R flex, from what I've read).  These are lightweight, softish tip shafts, and the pulls from the 4 and 5 irons (of the backup set) both weighed in at 107g.

 

The TT Lite Stiff pulls from the donor clubs weighed in at...    107g!  Score.

 

Kept the Rifle 6.0 flighted in the 3i for now, and soft-stepped the TT Lites 1x into the 4i and 2x into the 5i, and added 1.5 SW point to the 5i which was a little on the light side originally (D 1.5, now D3).  Kept the 6i where it is for now, but it's on the bubble. 7i on down stay in the Apex 3's, and feel great.  Glued 'em up and re-gripped them, and initial swings feel really good.  Haven't hit anything with them yet, but will report the results when I do.  Keep in mind I haven't actually touched the 4 or 5 from my gamer set, so I'll be able to do side-by-side comparisons still, just as I was able to do with the 3i.  Yay.  Now I just need to keep the confirmation bias out of my head during the testing...  🤪

[Yacho]

Hit 18 today in the cold here in Colorado.  I think it was a high of 40F today, but it was sunny so I figured I'd get out there and make it happen.  I wasn't able to get to the course in time to hit a warmup bucket, but I had plenty of chances to get into my newly shafted 4 and 5 iron on the course, and I'm happy to report that I can call it a success!  The swings felt controlled with good pace, not boardy, and I was confident about knowing where the club head was through the swing and where it was going to be at contact. Results were also good, and shots were straighter with more of a baby draw now than the true 8-10 yard draw that I had come to expect with the regular flex Apex 3 shafted 4i and 5i.  Now the long irons feel like they are part of the whole set to me...  feels very relative to how the 7i and 8i feel through the swing, and honestly just allowed me to line up and hit the shot and not have to "coach" myself on how I needed to modify my swing for this 4 iron shot I'm about to take.  One less thing to have in my head, and that has to be a good thing. 

 

This newfound confidence makes it apparent that the 6 iron needs the same treatment though. Slight whippy feeling still...  just enough to make me not completely trust it as I start the backswing.  And THAT has to be a bad thing.