From a fitting standpoint, what do toe shots tell you?

[ChristopherMcDonald]

From my time on the range tonight it seems I’m real consistent, but consistently out to the toe. From a fitting standpoint what would this tell us? I’m a rather tall guy at 6’3” but wrist to floor is pretty average. 
 

tempted to go 1/2” over on my upcoming build as I was centering my longer clubs a lot better than my gap wedge posted.

 

thoughts?

[phizzy30]

Sounds like it could work in your favor going 1/2 inch longer.  I also tend to miss toe side with irons as well.  Adding length to my clubs however has not helped me regarding this.  I've been lining up heel side like Luke Donald/Vijay Singh for over 10 years as a result.  I know it's a bandage but it's been working for a long time. 

[BREWMASTER95060]

47 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

I’m a rather tall guy at 6’3” but wrist to floor is pretty average.

wing span measurement?
watch Hogan swing videos.

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

From my time on the range tonight it seems I’m real consistent, but consistently out to the toe. From a fitting standpoint what would this tell us? I’m a rather tall guy at 6’3” but wrist to floor is pretty average. 
 

tempted to go 1/2” over on my upcoming build as I was centering my longer clubs a lot better than my gap wedge posted.

 

thoughts?

If the trend is worse the shorter the club is, then its most likely play length, but before you try that, try some added head wgt on the shortest club. Dont forget that the SW system has a progression to actual resistance the longer the club is, so if actual MOI or resistance is to low in the short end, you might be one of those who should play with a progressive SW value that goes progressive up as clubs goes shorter. The other thing here is that when we use the same heads and go longer, we raise SW value for ALL clubs in the set, and that MIGHT move resistance to the better for the short end, but over and beyond in the long end. The "effect" for SW of going longer can be tried off now, by adding 7 grams flat to all heads, (3 SWP) so start with that, and see what head wgt alone can or will do here.

[ChristopherMcDonald]

31 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

If the trend is worse the shorter the club is, then its most likely play length, but before you try that, try some added head wgt on the shortest club. Dont forget that the SW system has a progression to actual resistance the longer the club is, so if actual MOI or resistance is to low in the short end, you might be one of those who should play with a progressive SW value that goes progressive up as clubs goes shorter. The other thing here is that when we use the same heads and go longer, we raise SW value for ALL clubs in the set, and that MIGHT move resistance to the better for the short end, but over and beyond in the long end. The "effect" for SW of going longer can be tried off now, by adding 7 grams flat to all heads, (3 SWP) so start with that, and see what head wgt alone can or will do here.

I’ll for sure reply to the others about wingspan and all that but wanted to get some general info out there in response to this one 

 

so it’s absolutely worse in GW and progressively better with length. I’m a little weary of going much heavier SW wise, hanging out around D4 with the irons at the moment. 
 

In the good name of science however, I’ll toss 7g on my GW and see if that helps improve my impact pattern

 

thanks Howard (and others)

 

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

6 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

I’ll for sure reply to the others about wingspan and all that but wanted to get some general info out there in response to this one 

 

so it’s absolutely worse in GW and progressively better with length. I’m a little weary of going much heavier SW wise, hanging out around D4 with the irons at the moment. 
 

In the good name of science however, I’ll toss 7g on my GW and see if that helps improve my impact pattern

 

thanks Howard (and others)

 

 

 

If that works, and you dont mind lead tape, you can tune up the longest and shortest club in your set, and draw a slope between them, thats how it should be done anyway, so if the set is 8 clubs (4-GW), the longest work fine as it is, and the shortest became just right with 7 grams added, it will be silly easy to do the math for the others....the slope becomes, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 grams added

[ChristopherMcDonald]

7 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

If that works, and you dont mind lead tape, you can tune up the longest and shortest club in your set, and draw a slope between them, thats how it should be done anyway, so if the set is 8 clubs (4-GW), the longest work fine as it is, and the shortest became just right with 7 grams added, it will be silly easy to do the math for the others....the slope becomes, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 grams added

Good stuff here. Always have done constant SW but will be grabbing a fresh roll of lead tape and heading to the range. Thanks again sir 

[gsrjc]

Toe needs to come up so you stand a little closer to the ball or you have an outside to in swing.  When you setup are you hands hanging or do you feel like you’re stretching to the ball?  Could be stance that you’re too far away. I think clubs be more upright and you’re swinging out to in. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by gsrjc

[Hoyoymac]

Without getting into launch monitor data I’m curious what was the trajectory like?  High? Low?  How about start line and curvature?  Push? Pull? Draw? Fade?

 

Lots of possible solutions.  I’d start with an alignment stick station set up to ensure target line, stance, alignment and ball position haven’t got out of whack.

[denkea]

It could be something as simple as addressing the ball 1/2" closer to the heal than you do now.

And that probably would be the easiest to try.  

[kwainio]

This is all path related.

[ChristopherMcDonald]

1 hour ago, gsrjc said:

Toe needs to come up so you stand a little closer to the ball or you have an outside to in swing.  When you setup are you hands hanging or do you feel like you’re stretching to the ball?  Could be stance that you’re too far away. I think clubs be more upright and you’re swinging out to in. 

Could definitely be swing fault related, 100%. I feel like I'm close to the ball, handle of the club basically in my crotch.

 

1 hour ago, Hoyoymac said:

Without getting into launch monitor data I’m curious what was the trajectory like?  High? Low?  How about start line and curvature?  Push? Pull? Draw? Fade?

 

Lots of possible solutions.  I’d start with an alignment stick station set up to ensure target line, stance, alignment and ball position haven’t got out of whack.

Launch is high, start line is pretty much on target, couple yard fade, even with the toe contact. Alignment sticks will go in the bag next time. 

 

1 hour ago, denkea said:

It could be something as simple as addressing the ball 1/2" closer to the heal than you do now.

And that probably would be the easiest to try.  

Indeed. I did give this a shot however no matter how much closer to the heal I seem to make it at address, contact is still toe side
 

 

1 hour ago, kwainio said:

This is all path related.

Wouldn't doubt it one bit lol. Might also be my path is better with the longer clubs and worse with the shorter clubs.

As an aside, the other thing I'm factoring in for me going 1/2" over is lower back pain. It feels like at least with the wedges thru about 9 iron I'm in an almost Keegan Bradley type stance and my back has been paying the price. I'm aiming to be a little more upright and want to use my natural height to generate swing speed instead of throwing myself violently at it. 

[Hoyoymac]

If you are seeing a high launch with the low toe strike and starting it on line while getting a fade then you are delivering the club with a face that is open to the path and probably have a slightly out to in path as well.

 

Could be swing related. Could be stance alignment and ball position related.  Could be too short a club, and could be a lie angle adjustment is needed.

 

Start with the easy stuff first.  Stance, ball position, alignment.
 

 

[Cwebb]

wrist to floor can be deceiving.  If you hit your 7 or 8 iron more solid than your shorter clubs, then there is a good chance you would benefit from some extra length down there.  Try to figure out your shortest effective length for any club and build your set with that in mind.

 

If you do some test builds and if you haven't already, try using the same shaft that fits you well in your irons, in all wedges

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, gsrjc said:

Toe needs to come up so you stand a little closer to the ball or you have an outside to in swing.  

 

2 hours ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Could definitely be swing fault related, 100%. I feel like I'm close to the ball, handle of the club basically in my crotch.

Yeah the problem is that for all the comments about club fit/length/lie etc (which are accurate), IMO the most common reason for this is the equally common handle raising at impact due to a swing fault (depth loss, early extension etc). If you stand closer to the ball this can only make it worse if the underlying issue isn't addressed. Do you have any swing video?

[ChristopherMcDonald]

19 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

 

Yeah the problem is that for all the comments about club fit/length/lie etc (which are accurate), IMO the most common reason for this is the equally common handle raising at impact due to a swing fault (depth loss, early extension etc). If you stand closer to the ball this can only make it worse if the underlying issue isn't addressed. Do you have any swing video?

I do not however I have a lesson (first one in probably 15 years) coming up on the 29th to try to work on my swing path. I'll try to get some video from that session if it's not too embarrassing lol

[Valtiel]

22 minutes ago, ChristopherMcDonald said:

I do not however I have a lesson (first one in probably 15 years) coming up on the 29th to try to work on my swing path. I'll try to get some video from that session if it's not too embarrassing lol

Hah no worries! Handle raising and the subsequent causes of it are numerous and common as mentioned:



You can see how the lie angle from address to impact changes significantly here. Hands are up and out, shaft steepens, and the with the heel coming up and toe coming down you expose the latter more to the ball and thus you get more toe strikes. Some degree of this is normal, several pros have a version of this move (Rickie Fowler, Tony Finau, Tyrell Hatton etc) but it is more controlled and consistent and is not a product of path/shaft plane issues. When it IS it can cause these strike problems, and club length or address position changes don't address the root cause and become just a bandaid. This can be common with taller folks with more upright swings as well (you and I are the same height). 

Others things can cause this however so don't take this as gospel. Video from your upcoming lesson would be great, and i'd definitely pose this same question to your instructor what sort of answer they give. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Valtiel

[llewol007]

Toe shots can have a lot of culprits that stand out based on my experiences. I have narrowed it down to one that I ran into. Of course there can be many more out there that others will share. First I would check the length of your clubs in reference to your setup. You being rather tall even though you have longer arms may feel the need to create space as you hit the ball. This causes you to creep up in your posture almost the feeling of straightening your posture a little bit to create this space and this pushes your club path inside resulting in a toe shot. With you being consistent in your contact, my suggestion is something I have done that worked for me. 

What I did was do the opposite which is to choke down on the club about an inch. You might think it is crazy but give it a try. The mentality and what you will experience is actually you needing to stay down through contact to make a better angle of attack on the ball to make solid contact. Not saying steeper but staying down through the shot to hit it solidly. You will be surprised when you realize that the club set shorter a bit in your hands gives you freedom to come down on the ball with no fear of getting trapped or hitting them fat. This will have you committing to stay low. I’ve probably picked up more distance on my irons this way. 

In terms of setup, set the club down while addressing the ball and let your arms dangle down. Now grab your iron and grip the iron in the same length as when you hand your hands dangling. You will notice that you will find yourself choking down about one to 1 1/2 inches down on the club. Takes some getting use to and at first you might top a ball or two. This reveals how most of us dont stay down on the swing through contact. Once you hit a solid shot, you will realize how much more you feel like you’ve flushed a shot. Give it a try. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by llewol007