Grip change to improve early release....

[physasst]

So, I've struggled with an early release for years. I think it's the primary reason I can't seem to get below an 11 cap. I've sort of maxed out. I've done lessons for years, tried every drill they give me, take 3-4 perfect practice swings with perfect release and then step up to the ball, cast early, extend early and get variable results. It's beyond frustrating. I've adjusted as much as possible given my age and flexibility issues (years of MMA and martial arts have resulted in advanced arthritis in my left hip, left knee issues, and chronic nerve pain in my left leg...at age 51)...

 

I started to experiment with grip changes. I've always used a neutral interlocking grip-taught in high school-but I wonder about switching to something that might help me release properly. I tried a baseball grip with my driver a few weeks back, and was impressed with the results. 

 

From the more knowledgeable swing guys here, would a change in grip really effect early release? 

 

[golfarb1]

Given your stated left hip, knee and leg problems  , normal reactions to grip changes may be irrelevant . 
But try this drill , which has a very high probability of eliminating an early release

 

Closed face drill

Setup up with your normal grip. A little before starting your takeaway , loosen your grip and close the clubface so that it is extremely closed , by about 30 degrees. Hit balls with this very closed clubface . Your goal is to hit the ball straight.In order NOT to hit balls off of the planet to the left , you will be forced to delay your release . 

Edited December 29, 2022 by golfarb1

[AntLockyer]

Neutral grips are almost certainly too weak

[aggiegolfer21]

In theory a stronger grip will help because you don't have to throw the right arm as much to square the club face.

[MonteScheinblum]

11 hours ago, physasst said:

So, I've struggled with an early release for years. I think it's the primary reason I can't seem to get below an 11 cap. I've sort of maxed out. I've done lessons for years, tried every drill they give me, take 3-4 perfect practice swings with perfect release and then step up to the ball, cast early, extend early and get variable results. It's beyond frustrating. I've adjusted as much as possible given my age and flexibility issues (years of MMA and martial arts have resulted in advanced arthritis in my left hip, left knee issues, and chronic nerve pain in my left leg...at age 51)...

 

I started to experiment with grip changes. I've always used a neutral interlocking grip-taught in high school-but I wonder about switching to something that might help me release properly. I tried a baseball grip with my driver a few weeks back, and was impressed with the results. 

 

From the more knowledgeable swing guys here, would a change in grip really effect early release? 

 

It “might” be part of the issue, but it’s likely a bandaid.  There are issues in your swing forcing the poor release or you’d hit it worse.

[physasst]

[MonteScheinblum]

Too far away from the ball, hips and shoulders too open at address and big time over bending of the right elbow is where you should start.

 

Changing the grip likely to make things worse.

Edited December 30, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[Valtiel]

To add visuals to what Monte said:



You're very crossed up in your initial alignment which puts you in trouble before you start. The trajectory of the ball ends up matching your shoulders/hips more closely, so your feet are very closed, which leads to this common issue:



Massive inside/flat takeaway. The club should be pointing roughly down your target line at this point and it's pointing right of your feet, which themselves are very right of your target. This is setting you up for a big over the top loop later which we'll see.



This isn't helping matters either. For the club to move this much without any shoulder rotation you have to be introducing another significant hinge into the equation, and we see that in the club leaving/disconnecting from the pad of your left hand as you introduce way too much additional hinging at the top getting the club past parallel and across the line. If all the setup and takeaway stuff didn't screw you, this will.



Your hands them come out way over the top and you have a very open club face at P6. Classic over the top slice position that requires lots of hand to compensate for. The over-hinged disconnected backswing position combined with the severe looping path issues force you into the release you have which isn't something that is going to be fixed with a grip change or anything trivial like that.

I can guarantee you don't "take 3-4 perfect practice swings with perfect release", that just does not happen when combined with the issues above. The "beyond frustrating" comes from the fact you aren't aware of what isn't "perfect" about what you think you're doing, because i'd bet $20 you're doing just a slightly less severe version of what you do over the ball in that practice swing.

Eliminate the completely crossed up address position by actually squaring your feet to where you're aiming (use alignment sticks and video to check this), learn how to properly keep the club on plane in the takeaway with drills like this, understanding that the club hinges up in front of you in the takeaway to a certain extent, and stop folding/hinging the club at the top (check your backswing in the mirror to gain a feel for this). All of that will push you towards being much more neutral so you can stop fighting against the bad positions you're putting yourself in.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

To add visuals to what Monte said:



You're very crossed up in your initial alignment which puts you in trouble before you start. The trajectory of the ball ends up matching your shoulders/hips more closely, so your feet are very closed, which leads to this common issue:



Massive inside/flat takeaway. The club should be pointing roughly down your target line at this point and it's pointing right of your feet, which themselves are very right of your target. This is setting you up for a big over the top loop later which we'll see.



This isn't helping matters either. For the club to move this much without any shoulder rotation you have to be introducing another significant hinge into the equation, and we see that in the club leaving/disconnecting from the pad of your left hand as you introduce way too much additional hinging at the top getting the club past parallel and across the line. If all the setup and takeaway stuff didn't screw you, this will.



Your hands them come out way over the top and you have a very open club face at P6. Classic over the top slice position that requires lots of hand to compensate for. The over-hinged disconnected backswing position combined with the severe looping path issues force you into the release you have which isn't something that is going to be fixed with a grip change or anything trivial like that.

I can guarantee you don't "take 3-4 perfect practice swings with perfect release", that just does not happen when combined with the issues above. The "beyond frustrating" comes from the fact you aren't aware of what isn't "perfect" about what you think you're doing, because i'd bet $20 you're doing just a slightly less severe version of what you do over the ball in that practice swing.

Eliminate the completely crossed up address position by actually squaring your feet to where you're aiming (use alignment sticks and video to check this), learn how to properly keep the club on plane in the takeaway with drills like this, understanding that the club hinges up in front of you in the takeaway to a certain extent, and stop folding/hinging the club at the top (check your backswing in the mirror to gain a feel for this). All of that will push you towards being much more neutral so you can stop fighting against the bad positions you're putting yourself in.

Whenever I hear golfers say things like the OP, I get very frustrated FOR them.  Somewhere it become an axiom that doing something well in a practice swing makes it functional and it’s nearly always the opposite.  Practice swings are non functional and adding a “good release” to a swing that doesn’t accommodate it is actually counter productive because the root causes are not being addressed. Nearly 100% of the time, fixing the aesthetic fault would make you hit it worse. Early release, over the top, cast, flip. early extension, etc., are a means to actually make contact when the “proper” movements would create disastrous results. 
 

90%+ of solutions I hear regularly would sound like this to an orthopedist. “My knee hurts, but I can walk with no pain if I keep my knee straight and limp…..or……I bought two different pairs of shoes with one having a a thicker sole and it allows me to walk straight.

 

This would be a face palming moment to the Doc as it’s not addressing the torn meniscus.  These “solutions” seems to create short term gain but are horrific long term issues.

 

Rehab the knee correctly and regain a proper walk.

 

This is why the “Backswing doesn’t matter and impact is all that matters,” is a false god.  A forced “good” impact/release would hit the ball horribly from many common setups and backswing positions.

 

With the setup, takeaway and narrow position at the top, a “proper release” would likely cause a shank and the good instincts and coordination of an 11 handicap take over and cast/flip to hit a playable shot.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by MonteScheinblum

[naval2006]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

90%+ of solutions I hear regularly would sound like this to an orthopedist. “My knee hurts, but I can walk with no pain if I keep my knee straight and limp…..or……I bought two different pairs of shoes with one having a a thicker sole and it allows me to walk straight.

 

This would be a face palming moment to the Doc as it’s not addressing the torn meniscus.  These “solutions” seems to create short term gain but are horrific long term issues.

 

Rehab the knee correctly and regain a proper walk.

 

 

Self-diagnosis is usually a killer when it comes to the big issues of the golf swing.  

[physasst]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Whenever I hear golfers say things like the OP, I get very frustrated FOR them.  Somewhere it become an axiom that doing something well in a practice swing makes it functional and it’s nearly always the opposite.  Practice swings are non functional and adding a “good release” to a swing that doesn’t accommodate it is actually counter productive because the root causes are not being addressed. Nearly 100% of the time, fixing the aesthetic fault would make you hit it worse. Early release, over the top, cast, flip. early extension, etc., are a means to actually make contact when the “proper” movements would create disastrous results. 
 

90%+ of solutions I hear regularly would sound like this to an orthopedist. “My knee hurts, but I can walk with no pain if I keep my knee straight and limp…..or……I bought two different pairs of shoes with one having a a thicker sole and it allows me to walk straight.

 

This would be a face palming moment to the Doc as it’s not addressing the torn meniscus.  These “solutions” seems to create short term gain but are horrific long term issues.

 

Rehab the knee correctly and regain a proper walk.

 

This is why the “Backswing doesn’t matter and impact is all that matters,” is a false god.  A forced “good” impact/release would hit the ball horribly from many common setups and backswing positions.

 

With the setup, takeaway and narrow position at the top, a “proper release” would likely cause a shank and the good instincts and coordination of an 11 handicap take over and cast/flip to hit a playable shot.

 

 

Thanks Monte. The frustrating part is I’ve probably spent 5,000$ on private lessons, fittings, everything over the past 4 years and feel like I’m simply making no progress. I’ve really just deliberated about simply quitting the game completely, which I don’t want to do…. most of my playing partners who are for the most part better than I am say I have a low single digit short game, which is what saves my score most of the time and about a 20+ handicap tee shot and long game. Well, time to work on setup and takeaway I guess. TY

 

Mike

[GAGolfer1]

6 minutes ago, physasst said:

Thanks Monte. The frustrating part is I’ve probably spent 5,000$ on private lessons, fittings, everything over the past 4 years and feel like I’m simply making no progress. I’ve really just deliberated about simply quitting the game completely, which I don’t want to do…. most of my playing partners who are for the most part better than I am say I have a low single digit short game, which is what saves my score most of the time and about a 20+ handicap tee shot and long game. Well, time to work on setup and takeaway I guess. TY

 

Mike

Hey Mike, curious to know what the instructors focused on in your lessons? What did the lessons entail?

[physasst]

25 minutes ago, Liveonce said:

Hey Mike, curious to know what the instructors focused on in your lessons? What did the lessons entail?

Well, the first guy seemed to spend more time on working the Trackman...focused a lot on numbers....not much on swing mechanics. Although he did have me do a drill with an alignment stick stuck in the ground to keep the club on an inside path. 

 

The second guy has been the opposite...no technology, but focusing more on small position changes....He's the one that said that most of my problems are coming from an early release. I'm stalling my hips, swinging just with my hands/arms, which is causing early extension, chicken winging, and a lot of right shots....last lesson I had with him he just kept shaking his head and saying "we've got to get you to release properly".....

[physasst]

 I have also tried to shortened my back swing thinking that might help.  Trying to get away from the long collapsing back swing, but then the timing feels so off and I can barely even make contact with ball. Let alone hit it straight...

 

M

[GAGolfer1]

1 hour ago, physasst said:

Well, the first guy seemed to spend more time on working the Trackman...focused a lot on numbers....not much on swing mechanics. Although he did have me do a drill with an alignment stick stuck in the ground to keep the club on an inside path. 

 

The second guy has been the opposite...no technology, but focusing more on small position changes....He's the one that said that most of my problems are coming from an early release. I'm stalling my hips, swinging just with my hands/arms, which is causing early extension, chicken winging, and a lot of right shots....last lesson I had with him he just kept shaking his head and saying "we've got to get you to release properly".....

I think Valitel broke down your swing from start to finish. I would Google mike bender cone drill to start with takeaway. He utilizes a lot of feedback tools which I think are a must otherwise you can’t tell if you are actually incorporating into your swing

[Mr_Wolfe]

1 hour ago, physasst said:

 I have also tried to shortened my back swing thinking that might help.  Trying to get away from the long collapsing back swing, but then the timing feels so off and I can barely even make contact with ball. Let alone hit it straight...

 

M

 

I think you will shave a couple of strokes just by shortening your swing and not letting your lead arm collapse like that. Since yours collapses that much, I would do swings keeping that lead arm straight. That automatically should shorten your swing by 10-20%.

 

Mr. Wolfe

[Zitlow]

You're getting in your own way by impeding the path of the club with your pivot. It should be mostly a reaction to what the hands are doing not the other way around. 

 

The hands are the speed producers not the pivot. The pivot is important because it determines the arc of the club. Small pivot small arc, big pivot big arc. The bigger the arc the more time you have to accelerate the clubhead.

 

 

 

[physasst]

6 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

You're getting in your own way by impeding the path of the club with your pivot. It should be mostly a reaction to what the hands are doing not the other way around. 

 

The hands are the speed producers not the pivot. The pivot is important because it determines the arc of the club. Small pivot small arc, big pivot big arc. The bigger the arc the more time you have to accelerate the clubhead.

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Valtiel said:

To add visuals to what Monte said:



You're very crossed up in your initial alignment which puts you in trouble before you start. The trajectory of the ball ends up matching your shoulders/hips more closely, so your feet are very closed, which leads to this common issue:



Massive inside/flat takeaway. The club should be pointing roughly down your target line at this point and it's pointing right of your feet, which themselves are very right of your target. This is setting you up for a big over the top loop later which we'll see.



This isn't helping matters either. For the club to move this much without any shoulder rotation you have to be introducing another significant hinge into the equation, and we see that in the club leaving/disconnecting from the pad of your left hand as you introduce way too much additional hinging at the top getting the club past parallel and across the line. If all the setup and takeaway stuff didn't screw you, this will.



Your hands them come out way over the top and you have a very open club face at P6. Classic over the top slice position that requires lots of hand to compensate for. The over-hinged disconnected backswing position combined with the severe looping path issues force you into the release you have which isn't something that is going to be fixed with a grip change or anything trivial like that.

I can guarantee you don't "take 3-4 perfect practice swings with perfect release", that just does not happen when combined with the issues above. The "beyond frustrating" comes from the fact you aren't aware of what isn't "perfect" about what you think you're doing, because i'd bet $20 you're doing just a slightly less severe version of what you do over the ball in that practice swing.

Eliminate the completely crossed up address position by actually squaring your feet to where you're aiming (use alignment sticks and video to check this), learn how to properly keep the club on plane in the takeaway with drills like this, understanding that the club hinges up in front of you in the takeaway to a certain extent, and stop folding/hinging the club at the top (check your backswing in the mirror to gain a feel for this). All of that will push you towards being much more neutral so you can stop fighting against the bad positions you're putting yourself in.

 

 

Thank you! I think part of the hip/pelvis alignment has to do with my hip issues. After seeing this I started to pay attention to just how I stand normally. I noticed that if I stand to face someone, my pelvis is about 20* open to the left, even with both feet square. I'll have to be a lot more concious about that. I've been swinging this way for almost 35 years. I was a top tennis player in high school, and was always a very wristy/handsy tennis player relying mostly on timing, which worked well at 17-20 years old. It sounds like those habits are infecting my golf swing as well. The closing of the feet was intentional as I read something about Mike Adams LAWs of golf, and saw that this was advised for bigger players....Sounds like maybe not? I've lost a lot of flexibility in my spine, which isn't probably helping either.....

 

I kinda wish I had never taken lessons....I used to just play a slice and just not even think about it....now my head is full of so many thoughts when I stand over the ball, ESPECIALLY on a tee box that I can't even seem to sort anything out...

 

Thank you.

 

Not sure what you mean by pivot impeding the path of the club?

 

M

[RoyalTroon]

What, out in the distance, are you aiming for and with what flight?  Please don't say "just straight out there".  All Wrx videos should have target-flight indicated in addition to good camera angle.

[physasst]

11 minutes ago, RonJon said:

What, out in the distance, are you aiming for and with what flight?  Please don't say "just straight out there".  All Wrx videos should have target-flight indicated in addition to good camera angle.

To the right of the big pine tree in the distance is my typical target, there is a small gap in the fence that I treat like a gate and aim at. I am aiming for a low flight that rises to a mid trajectory.

 

M

[chisag]

... Teaching for 5 years taught me that most golfers fall into one of two categories. They either focus on the results or they focus on the execution. Those that are determined to focus on the results were very difficult to teach. This isn't the same as target oriented, it is results oriented and why many steer a ball into the water instead of just trusting their swing. Let's say they look up when putting, twisting their body at impact and coming out of their posture. Especially short putts for birdie or par because the only thing they really cared about was making the ball go in the hole, not the stroke that accomplishes that goal. I could stand there and hold their head in place, then well after the ball was gone rotate their head to see the putt, but as soon as I stepped away they went right back to lifting and looking. I always loved the saying  "golf is 80% mental and the other 20% is mental". 

 

[596]

If you want to shorten your swing, hit hundreds and hundreds of 100 yard 8 irons! It shortens your backswing, improves your overall swing and improves accuracy a ton. Think pitches!  I haven't hit a full shot inside 140 yards in about 3 months.  And I play 3 to 4 days each week.  Everything is 2 to 3 clubs more then I need.  My swing is better and my scores have come down. 

[RoyalTroon]

53 minutes ago, physasst said:

To the right of the big pine tree in the distance is my typical target, there is a small gap in the fence that I treat like a gate and aim at. I am aiming for a low flight that rises to a mid trajectory.

 

M

 

Looks to me the ball did exactly, not almost, exactly what you were attempting to do and went through the gate.   Correct?

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, physasst said:

Well, the first guy seemed to spend more time on working the Trackman...focused a lot on numbers....not much on swing mechanics. Although he did have me do a drill with an alignment stick stuck in the ground to keep the club on an inside path. 

 

The second guy has been the opposite...no technology, but focusing more on small position changes....He's the one that said that most of my problems are coming from an early release. I'm stalling my hips, swinging just with my hands/arms, which is causing early extension, chicken winging, and a lot of right shots....last lesson I had with him he just kept shaking his head and saying "we've got to get you to release properly".....

I used to be a very vocal hater of other instructors and it wasn’t a good look, but it’s very frustrating to read what you wrote here.  Neither made any attempt to address the “Why?”

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, physasst said:

 I have also tried to shortened my back swing thinking that might help.  Trying to get away from the long collapsing back swing, but then the timing feels so off and I can barely even make contact with ball. Let alone hit it straight...

 

M

Two things.  1.  The setup issues are the first priority.  2.  You can’t just shorten the swing, you have to improve the takeaway.

 

Bonus #3.  You have to give your body time to adapt to the timing.  Lamenting faulty initial timing after a change is maybe the biggest reason ams don’t improve.

[physasst]

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Two things.  1.  The setup issues are the first priority.  2.  You can’t just shorten the swing, you have to improve the takeaway.

 

Bonus #3.  You have to give your body time to adapt to the timing.  Lamenting faulty initial timing after a change is maybe the biggest reason ams don’t improve.

Wish you were having a clinic in Minneapolis this year....I'd be the first to sign up....

 

M

[physasst]

24 minutes ago, RonJon said:

 

Looks to me the ball did exactly, not almost, exactly what you were attempting to do and went through the gate.   Correct?

Very close, l think my natural athletic ability and tennis background allow me to compensate, but I'm horribly inconsistent. 

 

My other big issue is standing on a tee box.  I can go to the range and hit an entire bucket of balls and actually make decent contact.  I go to the 1st tee box and I will hit the ball so far right I am usually right of the other hole and often out of bounds. That is most likely a mental thing. I even started teeing off in the rough behind the tee box for awhile this last year to try something different and try to get out of my own head....

[physasst]

10 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I used to be a very vocal hater of other instructors and it wasn’t a good look, but it’s very frustrating to read what you wrote here.  Neither made any attempt to address the “Why?”

 

Both have suggested that I am just bleeding power. I typically hit a driver 230-250, but with my size and strength, I should be much longer.....

 

M

[MonteScheinblum]

18 minutes ago, physasst said:

 

Both have suggested that I am just bleeding power. I typically hit a driver 230-250, but with my size and strength, I should be much longer.....

 

M

You are, in order to get the ball somewhere near the target.

[MonteScheinblum]

If you had max speed and kept the wrist angles from this position, you’d hit the ball 100 yards right.  You slow down and release early to hit the ball straight.