The end of the flagstick in/out debate.

[Augster]

Don’t let this happen to you folks. Have someone attend the flag. You’ve been warned. 
 

 

[Robert72]

Nonsense, if the stick had been out, the ball would have rolled 10 more feet setting up a three putt.

[chisag]

... In my personal experience I have seen far too many to count that would have rolled by the hole 10 feet or more if they hadn't hit the flag stick and stopped near the hole. OTOH I have yet to see one putt/chip that would have fallen if the flagstick was out. Certainly heard a few claim they were robbed by the pin but they were rolling way too fast and they evidently they think the back of the cup is banked like turn 2 at Daytona. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by chisag

[davep043]

The thing is, nobody knows for certain.  My best guess is that ball would have rolled right over the hole, maybe a little hop as it bounced off the back side , but I don't think it would have gone in.  As with @chisag, I think the flagstick probably kept that ball a lot closer to the hole than it would have been without hitting the stick.  But as I say, you simply cannot KNOW what would have happened.

[2bGood]

I am in the out camp. But I think the type of flagstick has factor. we have pretty beefy ones out our golf club that I think repel more ball than they help.

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Don’t let this happen to you folks. Have someone attend the flag. You’ve been warned. 

 

Hardly "The end of the flagstick in/out debate" now you've stirred it up again.

[caniac6]

I might have seen a couple putts that I thought might have been kept out by the stick, but I’ve seen a bunch that the stick saved from going well past the hole. 

[bcjim]

I don't know what would have happened here. Its certainly possible it might have gone in.  I'm still in the leave it in camp though.

[Abh159]

4 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

I might have seen a couple putts that I thought might have been kept out by the stick, but I’ve seen a bunch that the stick saved from going well past the hole. 

 

Exactly. I can live with the 1 out of 20 that doesn't go in if it keeps me from three putting half (or more) of those 19 other times.

[davep043]

I know I've said it before, my attitude is that if a putt is going too fast, the flagstick can only help.  If the putt is going at the right speed, the flagstick can only hurt.

[Augster]

That ball was center cut. In 100%. 
 

Unpredictable things happen when a round object in motion collides with a static round object. In this case, 2nd place and about, possibly, $700,000. 
 

I’m happy one of these clowns, that employ a caddy that can attend the flag 100% of the time, finally got bit to show the risks these guys are taking. Unfortunately, Thompson was on my fantasy team and cost me a (possible) win. 

Leave it in at your own risk. 

 

[Schulzmc]

BTW - I know their words are not gospel, but the team announcing the tournament felt the putt would have dropped. John Wood (on-course announcer and long time caddie) said, "If that pin is out, no doubt it goes in. It was right in the center. It doesn't happen very often, but that pin cost him there."

[chisag]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I know I've said it before, my attitude is that if a putt is going too fast, the flagstick can only help.  If the putt is going at the right speed, the flagstick can only hurt.

 

 

... I know you are familiar with another site doing an extensive test for putts rolling 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole and when rolling it at a speed that would go 3 feet past all putts went in. But once you got to speeds that would roll the putt 6 and 9 feet past the hole, with both a rigid or flexible pins it was always an advantage to leave the pin in on both center hits and off center hits. And it wasn't even close. So it may be your attitude but it isn't based in actual testing. It never hurts to have the flag in and it often hurts to have it out, regardless of how fast the ball is rolling. 

[jomatty]

I think that putt would have dropped.  It really doesn’t look that fast to me and it was dead center.  Im not sure what people are seeing who say that it was almost certainly going to miss.  That doesn’t change my mind on leaving the flagstick in on longer putts though. That is just one of the many things that can happen when you hit a long putt.  Most of the time it will not make any difference whatsoever.  Of the times it matters it will usually help more than hurts in my opinion.  Sometimes you get a bad break.  Just like every other thing in golf.

[jomatty]

5 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

 

... I know you are familiar with another site doing an extensive test for putts rolling 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole and when rolling it at a speed that would go 3 feet past all putts went in. But once you got to speeds that would roll the putt 6 and 9 feet past the hole, with both a rigid or flexible pins it was always an advantage to leave the pin in on both center hits and off center hits. And it wasn't even close. So it may be your attitude but it isn't based in actual testing. It never hurts to have the flag in and it often hurts to have it out, regardless of how fast the ball is rolling. 

That test was such a small sample size that I don’t think you can read much into it.  I’m really surprised you have never seen a putt that would have gone in hit the pin and stay out.  It is very rare, but I see it from time t time and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone else say that they have never seen it.  For what it’s worth I’ve also seen well struck putts hit the cup liner and pop out.  Hard to say never in golf but maybe your playing partners have been living clean so all the putts drop.for what it’s worth I almost always leave the flag in.

Edited January 23, 2023 by jomatty

[davep043]

16 minutes ago, Augster said:

Leave it in at your own risk. 

I'll take that risk for long putts.  Maybe that putt WOULD have dropped, neither of us can be certain.  But at that speed, the "effective" size of the hole isn't much more than an inch or less, a half-inch off center and its spinning out, and ending up a lot further away than if it bounces off the flagstick.

3 minutes ago, chisag said:

... I know you are familiar with another site doing an extensive test for putts rolling 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole and when rolling it at a speed that would go 3 feet past all putts went in. But once you got to speeds that would roll the putt 6 and 9 feet past the hole, with both a rigid or flexible pins it was always an advantage to leave the pin in on both center hits and off center hits. And it wasn't even close. So it may be your attitude but it isn't based in actual testing. It never hurts to have the flag in and it often hurts to have it out, regardless of how fast the ball is rolling. 

I've read a bunch of studies, with a variety of conclusions.  One thing none of them can take into account is wind, or non-vertical or non-centered flagsticks.  I'm comfortable with my own conclusions in the real world. 

[Mr. Bean]

So, the final outcome is that

- players who cannot control their putt speed are better off with pin in

- players who are able to control their putt speed are better off with pin out

 

Piece of cake and I have known that for years.

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, jomatty said:

That test was such a small sample size that I don’t think you can read much into it.

 

... Damm!t Jim I am an actor not a scientist! From the same distance using a perfect putter machine 20 putts with it in and 20 putts with it out from 3, 6 and 9 feet is conclusive enough for me. Ymmv of course ...


 

12 minutes ago, jomatty said:

I’m really surprised you have never seen a putt that would have gone in hit the pin and stay out.  It is very rare, but I see it from time t time and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard anyone else say that they have never seen it.

 

 

... I play about 250 rounds a year and get paired up with my share of strangers and yes, I have seen putts/chips hit the flag and not go in. But in every case I think the putt/chip was moving too fast to go in if the flag was out. I have also seen flags moving in the wind or tiled from the previous group and not centered and they most likely kept the ball out of the hole that probably would have dropped. But I always pull it if the wind is blowing the flag toward me and straighten a pin if it looks crooked. 

... And to be fair while this is an interesting discussion, I am a die in the hole putter and rarely run the ball very far past the hole and one of the reasons I don't care if someone wants it pulled. But like everyone that has ever played golf, I have had some speedy chips saved by the flag. 
 

[sethdavidsdad]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

I know I've said it before, my attitude is that if a putt is going too fast, the flagstick can only help.  If the putt is going at the right speed, the flagstick can only hurt.

Agree with this statement completely. 

 

[Newby]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

It was right in the center. 

As the ball moved to the left it couldn't have been in the centre. If it had been, it would have bounced right back.

[sethdavidsdad]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

[Krt22]

This certainly ended the debate

[Newby]

18 minutes ago, sethdavidsdad said:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

That was only one of umpteen 'scientifically proven' published tests. Last time I checked it was about 50/50.

Edited January 23, 2023 by Newby

[jomatty]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

So, the final outcome is that

- players who cannot control their putt speed are better off with pin in

- players who are able to control their putt speed are better off with pin out

 

Piece of cake and I have known that for years.

Except that no one can control their putt speed every time so that kind of muddies the water.  At least no one I’ve seen on the tour.  There may be some WRX ‘ers that get it just right every time…

[MelloYello]

I've chipped in lots of times, so I can tell whether a ball would've dropped at the speed it was rolling. When I watch a chip release at a casual pace and hit the flagstick dead square only to bounce back at me, I'm convinced it sucks. 

 

I can say the same about putts. I agree that a flagstick can (of course) stop a ball traveling at high speed, but there's 0 chance of a ball falling in those instances. I'd rather pull the flag and at least have a chance. Then again, I'm not the type to blow it 10-ft past. My normal miss is short. So I need every opportunity I can get for a ball to fall and pins only hurt that. I'll happily putt the 4-ft come-backer for the chance of the first one going in. 

[Shilgy]

2 hours ago, Abh159 said:

 

Exactly. I can live with the 1 out of 20 that doesn't go in if it keeps me from three putting half (or more) of those 19 other times.

Seems odd to me that someone can have that good of a starting line on their putts that they’ll always hit the pin but can’t control speed enough to comfortably two putt without the pin as a backstop.

[Mr. Bean]

29 minutes ago, jomatty said:

Except that no one can control their putt speed every time so that kind of muddies the water.  At least no one I’ve seen on the tour.  There may be some WRX ‘ers that get it just right every time…

 

It seems you did not quite digest the outcome I presented as both of those players are in all of us. The trick is to understand which is when.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

As the ball moved to the left it couldn't have been in the centre. If it had been, it would have bounced right back.

Unless of course it hit the edge of a dimple to knock it to the side.

[DaveLeeNC]

The image is the ball right BEFORE it hits the pin. I have no idea what would have happened without the pin in (and I am a leave it in guy, BTW), but one thing is clear. This putt was not center cut. The X is about where the ball enters the frame. 

 

dave

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[Strategery]

After a few years of leaving the pin in, and tons of rounds, I've come to the conclusion that I've been helped roughly as much as I've been hurt, and the speed of play has improved.