The end of the flagstick in/out debate.

[st1800e]

We’ll never know….

[Colin L]

What a lot of speculation presented as fact, starting it would seem with the commentators.

 

 As a soccer commentator once  explained when a shot went by the wrong side of the post,  "If that ball had gone in, it would have been a goal."   On that. basis, I  confidently assert that if Davis Thompson's  ball had gone in, it would have been holed.  

 

 

[jomatty]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

It seems you did not quite digest the outcome I presented as both of those players are in all of us. The trick is to understand which is when.

Once again I misunderstood someone making a clever comment on the internet.  Not very clever of me and seems to happen more than I like…

[denkea]

In or out.  All I know is that if you've had 2/3 putts you know would have gone in except for the flag being in then from then on it is OUT.  

[Soloman1]

It’s not about one putt, it’s about the statistical average. That’s why casinos are happy and profitable - people don’t study statistics in school. (insert old fashioned grin since emojis don’t work anymore).

[Hawkeye77]

19 hours ago, Augster said:

 

I’m happy one of these clowns, that employ a caddy that can attend the flag 100% of the time, finally got bit to show the risks these guys are taking. Unfortunately, Thompson was on my fantasy team and cost me a (possible) win. 

Leave it in at your own risk. 

 

 

Someone was Monday morning quarterbacking on GC yesterday at noon (turned it on for that show for the first time in about six months, lol), saying "where was the caddie?"  Seems like caddies tending pins are more for the flag out folks using it as an aiming point and it's usually coming right out when the putt is struck.  A flag out guy would have likely just had it out and no caddie anywhere near. Flag in people don't generally have the caddie there trying to judge at the last second whether to pull it or not, so I didn't see the sense in the studio guy or this post brining the element of caddies into it - no real reason for him to have the caddie there and no reason to think the caddie should think he should be there.  

 

I'm 95% flag out, even when playing alone, so I don't want to get into the arguments about that part of it.  

 

He hits the putt to make based on his knowledge of likely results from leaving the flag in and suffers the known consequences if he misses, just like the flag out people.  

[Colin L]

30 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

It’s not about one putt, it’s about the statistical average. That’s why casinos are happy and profitable - people don’t study statistics in school. (insert old fashioned grin since emojis don’t work anymore).

They don't, do they.. 😳 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Colin L

[ThinkingPlus]

26 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Someone was Monday morning quarterbacking on GC yesterday at noon (turned it on for that show for the first time in about six months, lol), saying "where was the caddie?"  Seems like caddies tending pins are more for the flag out folks using it as an aiming point and it's usually coming right out when the putt is struck.  A flag out guy would have likely just had it out and no caddie anywhere near. Flag in people don't generally have the caddie there trying to judge at the last second whether to pull it or not, so I didn't see the sense in the studio guy or this post brining the element of caddies into it - no real reason for him to have the caddie there and no reason to think the caddie should think he should be there.  

 

I'm 95% flag out, even when playing alone, so I don't want to get into the arguments about that part of it.  

 

He hits the putt to make based on his knowledge of likely results from leaving the flag in and suffers the known consequences if he misses, just like the flag out people.  

The caddie doesn't get that choice.  If tended, the flag must be pulled else incur a penalty.

[Hawkeye77]

20 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

The caddie doesn't get that choice.  If tended, the flag must be pulled else incur a penalty.

 

Of course! Wasn't even thinking of that, thanks.

[Krt22]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

It’s not about one putt, it’s about the statistical average. That’s why casinos are happy and profitable - people don’t study statistics in school. (insert old fashioned grin since emojis don’t work anymore).

Precisely why any SG debate devolves into a handwaving extravaganza. For every putt the flag keeps out of the hole, it also likely prevents a 3-putt

[Pepperturbo]

Last weekend we played some fast greens.  My buddy leaves the pin in all the time, and his ball hit it numerous times, resulting in the ball spinning in another direction, 2'-5'.   Each time, his ball was traveling relatively fast.  I thought too fast to catch the opposite side lip and drop in.  It probably would have traveled further than 5' if it didn't hit the pin.

 

IMO - Leaving the pin in depends on length of putt, and maybe how much speed and distance control the person has when putting.

 

 

[Newby]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:11 PM, Augster said:

Don’t let this happen to you folks. Have someone attend the flag. You’ve been warned. 
 

 

Now see what you've done 😬

[nsxguy]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:04 AM, denkea said:

In or out.  All I know is that if you've had 2/3 putts you know would have gone in except for the flag being in then from then on it is OUT.  

 

Seldom takes more than once.

 

We seem to remember bad breaks way more often than good ones.

 

I shot a personal best about 10 years ago and, to this day, I can tell you every one of the 4-5 shots I lost due to bad breaks.

 

I made 6 birdies that day - don't remember a single one of them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

22 hours ago, Augster said:

That ball was center cut. In 100%. 
 

Unpredictable things happen when a round object in motion collides with a static round object. In this case, 2nd place and about, possibly, $700,000. 
 

I’m happy one of these clowns, that employ a caddy that can attend the flag 100% of the time, finally got bit to show the risks these guys are taking. Unfortunately, Thompson was on my fantasy team and cost me a (possible) win. 

Leave it in at your own risk. 

 

 

Ahhhh Haaaaaaaaaaaaah !!!

 

Sorry my friend, that ball was NOT "center cut", according to your own video. As has been mentioned, it hit the left side of the stick and went further left AND further forward.

 

Had it hit center cut, it'd have bounced (out ?) back towards the player.

 

That ball seemed to be picking up speed the last 10-12 feet or so. Frankly, had the flag been taken out I think it may have gone it but there's certainly some question about that as well.

[Mr_Wolfe]

16 hours ago, Strategery said:

After a few years of leaving the pin in, and tons of rounds, I've come to the conclusion that I've been helped roughly as much as I've been hurt, and the speed of play has improved.

100% agree. I actually enjoy golf more now that we don't have to "tend the pin" on every hole when someone has a long putt. It is my favorite rule change, ever.

 

With that being said, I think the putt in question would have dropped without the pin. lol

 

Mr. Wolfe

[Mr. Bean]

This thread is simply astonishing.

 

Laws of physics dictate whether a ball will be holed or not. Ability of an individual player dictates the (in)ability to determine the velocity with which a ball is to be struck in order to have it holed with that single stroke.

 

Those two things seldom collide so discussing whether the pin should be out or in in ALL POSSIBLE CASES is like discussing whether.... well, I cannot come up with any other example than the one I am not allowed to write on this forum...

 

P.S. For those unfamiliar with physics, velocity is speed + direction (=vector). Just to make sure no arguments will be written due to deficient comprehension of what I wrote regarding velocity.

 

P.P.S. Continuing this thread further from this point is like admitting people claiming Earth is flat do have a point...

 

[NorthTexasGlfr]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

This thread is simply astonishing.

 

Laws of physics dictate whether a ball will be holed or not. Ability of an individual player dictates the (in)ability to determine the velocity with which a ball is to be struck in order to have it holed with that single stroke.

 

Those two things seldom collide so discussing whether the pin should be out or in in ALL POSSIBLE CASES is like discussing whether.... well, I cannot come up with any other example than the one I am not allowed to write on this forum...

 

P.S. For those unfamiliar with physics, velocity is speed + direction (=vector). Just to make sure no arguments will be written due to deficient comprehension of what I wrote regarding velocity.

 

P.P.S. Continuing this thread further from this point is like admitting people claiming Earth is flat do have a point...

 

 

After reading your post, I can truthfully say that I don't know what you are trying to say, lol. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by North Texas

[sui generis]

6 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

emojis don’t work anymore

 

😉

[ThinkingPlus]

6 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

...(insert old fashioned grin since emojis don’t work anymore).

Just like millenials...

 

JK 😜 

[MelloYello]

19 hours ago, Strategery said:

After a few years of leaving the pin in, and tons of rounds, I've come to the conclusion that I've been helped roughly as much as I've been hurt, and the speed of play has improved.

 

Haha....well, consider yourself lucky!

 

Unfortunately, my group(s) consist of a mix of guys who some want it in, some want it pulled and some who don't care. At it's worst, it can be a mess of the stick being pulled and replaced more than once, LOL. 🙂

 

 

[MelloYello]

Consider that professionals play on slick greens that stimp at 12+. On those greens nearly everything that isn't dying in is going to trickle past 2-3 feet. So putts are generally hit gently and most putts therefore arrive at the hole without a ton of pace.

 

At your local club OTOH, you're going to see greens that stimp at 6-10 (significantly slower) so it's more reasonable that a ball might have to be hit harder. If that's the case, you're going to see a lot more situations where the ball's velocity makes it more likely to hit the stick and bounce out.

 

So I wouldn't be surprised if there were some critical green speed that made it a good/bad idea. 

 

Then of course you would have to compare how the sharpness of the lip matters. Professionals and top clubs have cups that are cut perfectly by the most qualified staff. And again, the length of the grass itself around the cup could be a critical factor here.

 

 

 

For me, I generally pull the flag because it's very rare to see a ball hit the stick and drop unless it's travelling very slowly and hits the very center of the stick. There's little to lose from far away but I think it's a massive mistake (here) to leave it in on putts that have a good chance of going it but also require some pace (e.g. 10-25 footers). 

 

.

Edited January 24, 2023 by MelloYello

[Soloman1]

I don’t care if someone wants to pull the flag for their putt. It doesn’t affect me.

 

But, you pull it, you put it back in. It’s a pain if you’re the last to putt and the flag puller walks away.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

I don’t care if someone wants to pull the flag for their putt. It doesn’t affect me.

 

But, you pull it, you put it back in. It’s a pain if you’re the last to putt and the flag puller walks away.

 

Oh man, now we're talking about a whole new scenario. We have a guy in our group who pretty much never touches the pin. To the point of walking away from it if it's laying on the green after it's been pulled and he has putted out. 

[Double Mocha Man]

7 hours ago, Mr_Wolfe said:

100% agree. I actually enjoy golf more now that we don't have to "tend the pin" on every hole when someone has a long putt. It is my favorite rule change, ever.

 

You do know that those pins are slathered in covid-laden mucus residue.

[Mr_Wolfe]

55 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

You do know that those pins are slathered in covid-laden mucus residue.

Everyone knows that. You can actually see it if the lighting is right.

 

Mr. Wolfe

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, North Texas said:

 

After reading your post, I can truthfully say that I don't know what you are trying to say, lol. 

 

Simply put: every putt is an individual and the decision whether it could be advantageous to leave the pin in is to be made individually (by the individual performing th eputt). However, as said earlier, in general one might want to leave the pin in for long putts and take it out for shorter (read: sinkable) putts.

 

I have nothing further to say.

[NorthTexasGlfr]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Simply put: every putt is an individual and the decision whether it could be advantageous to leave the pin in is to be made individually (by the individual performing th eputt). However, as said earlier, in general one might want to leave the pin in for long putts and take it out for shorter (read: sinkable) putts.

 

I have nothing further to say.

 

That makes sense. And I agree. 

[nsxguy]

On 1/24/2023 at 10:28 AM, Soloman1 said:

It’s not about one putt, it’s about the statistical average. That’s why casinos are happy and profitable - people don’t study statistics in school. (insert old fashioned grin since emojis don’t work anymore).

 

Emojis are broken ?!?!?!

 

Say it ain't so !!!

[Soloman1]

😌 🙂😉

 

Can you see these emojis, or is it dependent on OS?
 

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

Trust the science https://golf.com/news/tournaments/dave-pelz-the-science-proves-you-should-leave-the-flagstick-in-when-you-putt-2/