Hybrid shaft length and lie angle - have I created a hook monster?

[mc2]

Hi, 

 

Can someone knowledgeable confirm increasing hybrid shaft length will make them more upright?

 

I play my irons 3 degrees weak, and I thought a good hybrid setup would be this:

 

5 iron - 28 degrees

26 degree hybrid - 4 hybrid shaft length

22 degree hybrid - 3 hybrid shaft length 

 

Both hybrids are G410's in the flat setting.

 

Gapping is good, but I've got a huge left pull hook miss with these, particularly the 22.

 

My path is around neutral, sometimes in to out, sometimes out to in, I'm guessing more in to out with the hybrids causing the left miss to be exaggerated. 
 

I know shaft (Aldila NV 2kxv Green R) could be a contributor, and I wasn't fit for these shafts, but if I've made them more upright by increasing length then that's where I'll start to try and fix it before looking at shafts. The shafts feel great, and I'm getting the launch, distance and gapping I want, just the left miss is the problem. 
 

Thx 🤝

 

 

 

 

[JungleJimbo]

2 hours ago, mc2 said:

Hi, 

 

Can someone knowledgeable confirm increasing hybrid shaft length will make them more upright?

 

I play my irons 3 degrees weak, and I thought a good hybrid setup would be this:

 

5 iron - 28 degrees

26 degree hybrid - 4 hybrid shaft length

22 degree hybrid - 3 hybrid shaft length 

 

Both hybrids are G410's in the flat setting.

 

Gapping is good, but I've got a huge left pull hook miss with these, particularly the 22.

 

My path is around neutral, sometimes in to out, sometimes out to in, I'm guessing more in to out with the hybrids causing the left miss to be exaggerated. 
 

I know shaft (Aldila NV 2kxv Green R) could be a contributor, and I wasn't fit for these shafts, but if I've made them more upright by increasing length then that's where I'll start to try and fix it before looking at shafts. The shafts feel great, and I'm getting the launch, distance and gapping I want, just the left miss is the problem. 
 

Thx 🤝

 

 

 

 

Hi OP @mc2 Perhaps the more-knowledgeable folks (eg @Stuart_G, @Howard_Jones, @Valtiel) can better answer your question

 

... but as a starter... i googled "choke down" and "lie angle" to find GolfWRX forum threads for you, that might help with your question w.r.t. shaft length vs Lie angle.

(Search Link: https://bit.ly/3XKXVtA )

 

I think the "TL;DR" to your question = "Yes?" (based on those forum threads)

... but will hope for those gurus to better answer your question.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by JungleJimbo

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, mc2 said:

Hi, 

 

Can someone knowledgeable confirm increasing hybrid shaft length will make them more upright?

 

Pardon about nit-picking the semantics but  playing length does not change the lie angle.   So no, they will not be more upright.   But playing length does effect what lie angle is a good fit.    So depending on how your swing changes as the playing length changes, changing length can potentially help get a better fit for lie angle.  So yes, they could play more upright relative to how they played at the shorter length.

 

 

3 hours ago, mc2 said:

I play my irons 3 degrees weak, and I thought a good hybrid setup would be this:

 

5 iron - 28 degrees

26 degree hybrid - 4 hybrid shaft length

22 degree hybrid - 3 hybrid shaft length 

 

Both hybrids are G410's in the flat setting.

 

Gapping is good, but I've got a huge left pull hook miss with these, particularly the 22.

 

That is not coming from the lie angle.   Those are only over 1/2" longer than stock.  That amount of change in how the lie angle fit is effected that might give you at most a 2-3 yard left miss.   So forget the lie angle as the cause for any huge miss or one that is caused by the path being off.  

 

And a "huge left pull hook miss" is both a path and face control problem.    

 

How often does this big miss happen?   All the time?   half the time?  .....

 

The more likely causes of the problems would be:

1) face angle  - common cause when a problem like this pops up when transitioning from irons to hybrids

2) swing weight - playing them longer than stock will increase the swing weight unless you found a way to make the heads lighter.

3) shaft weight -  since you weren't fit for that shaft - who knows how good a fit the shaft weight is.

4) playing length - longer is always harder to control.

5) shaft stiffness feel - less likely but still possible.

 

Here are a couple things you can do with the existing clubs to possibly help pin down the problem.

 

1) is face angle part of the problem?

Simply use the hosel setting to adjust the club to the lowest loft setting -1.5*  - this opens up the face as much as possible.  See what happens to the miss - does it get better.    THEN, do the opposite, change it to the highest lofted settings +1.5* - again go test and see what happens to the shot shape and big miss.

 

This will give you an idea of how sensitive you are to the face angle.   Use the results at the various settings to find

 

Some people are not sensitive to face angle - so it's possible that you may not see changes to the shot shape as you change settings.  In that case, you can go back to the loft setting that gives you the best launch/spin numbers.

 

 

2) Check if swing weight might be part of the problem.   Swing weight can potentially have a big effect on swing plane (path) and more importantly release timing and face control.

 

Did you see the same miss tendencies at the stock playing lengths?    Play them choked up 1/2" and see what happens?  Then try them choked up 1" to see what happens?

 

 

Of course, improvement in the results when choking up could also mean that the longer playing length could be contributing to the problem.   Any swing flaws will always be aggravated by the playing length.    The g410 also has a weight in the back you can remove to test a lighter swing weight but not at a shorter playing length.   But not sure how heavy that weight is so doing that might make it too light.   Lead tape can be used to work the weight back up or Billy Bob's golf might have aftermarket replacement weights to help you dial in the swing weight.

 

3 hours ago, mc2 said:

I know shaft (Aldila NV 2kxv Green R) could be a contributor,

 

What's the shaft weight?   And what's the weight and flex of your iron shafts?    What do you play for fairways - length and shaft weight?  (I'm assuming you're not seeing this problem with your fairways).

 

For some, shaft weight can have a big influence on rhythm and tempo and consistency and path and face control.  There are ways to test if your current shaft might be too light - but not if it's too heavy.    Looking at the iron shaft weights can give us some idea if the hybrid shaft weights.

 

 

3 hours ago, mc2 said:

The shafts feel great,

 

Then it's very unlikely that the shaft stiffness profile or stiffness feel is causing problems.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Stuart_G

[mc2]

6 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Pardon about nit-picking the semantics but  playing length does not change the lie angle.   So no, they will not be more upright.   But playing length does effect what lie angle is a good fit.    So depending on how your swing changes as the playing length changes, changing length can potentially help get a better fit for lie angle.  So yes, they could play more upright relative to how they played at the shorter length.

 

 

 

That is not coming from the lie angle.   Those are only over 1/2" longer than stock.  That amount of change in how the lie angle fit is effected that might give you at most a 2-3 yard left miss.   So forget the lie angle as the cause for any huge miss.  

 

How often does this big miss happen?   All the time?   half the time?  .....

 

A "huge left pull hook miss" is both a path and face control problem.    

 

The more likely cause of the problems would be:

1) face angle  - common cause when a problem like this pops up when transitioning from irons to hybrids

2) swing weight - playing them longer than stock will increase the swing weight unless you found a way to make the heads lighter.

3) shaft weight -  since you weren't fit for that shaft - who knows how good a fit the shaft weight is.

4) playing length - longer is always harder.

5) shaft stiffness feel - less likely but still possible.

 

Here are a couple things you can do with the existing clubs to possibly help pin down the problem.

 

1) is face angle part of the problem?

Simply use the hosel setting to adjust the club to the lowest loft setting -1.5*  - this opens up the face as much as possible.  See what happens to the miss - does it get better.    THEN, do the opposite, change it to the highest lofted settings +1.5* - again go test and see what happens to the shot shape and big miss.

 

This will give you an idea of how sensitive you are to the face angle.   Use the results at the various settings to find

 

Some people are not sensitive to face angle - so it's possible that you may not see changes to the shot shape as you change settings.  In that case, you can go back to the loft setting that gives you the best launch/spin numbers.

 

 

2) Check if swing weight might be part of the problem.   Swing weight can potentially have a big effect on swing plane (path) and more importantly release timing and face control.

 

Did you see the same miss tendencies at the stock playing lengths?    Play them choked up 1/2" and see what happens?  Then try them choked up 1" to see what happens?

 

 

Of course, improvement in the results when choking up could also mean that the longer playing length could be contributing to the problem.   Any swing flaws will always be aggravated by the playing length.    The g410 also has a weight in the back you can remove to test a lighter swing weight but not at a shorter playing length.   But not sure how heavy that weight is so doing that might make it too light.   Lead tape can be used to work the weight back up or Billy Bob's golf might have aftermarket replacement weights to help you dial in the swing weight.

 

 

What's the shaft weight?   And what's the weight and flex of your iron shafts?    What do you play for fairways - length and shaft weight?  (I'm assuming you're not seeing this problem with your fairways).

 

For some, shaft weight can have a big influence on rhythm and tempo and consistency and path and face control.  There are ways to test if your current shaft might be too light - but not if it's too heavy.    Looking at the iron shaft weights can give us some idea if the hybrid shaft weights.

 

 

 

Then it's very unlikely that the shaft stiffness profile or stiffness feel is causing problems.

@Stuart_G Firstly thank you for your ongoing contribution to this forum, always very much appreciated.

 

To answer your questions in helping narrow this down:

 

The big miss happens on the 26 degree maybe 1 in 20 shots, it's actually a very solid club for me. On the 22 however, I'm talking maybe 1 in every 3 shots is a big miss. The 22 is fairly new, I wouldn't put up with a miss rate like that long term! 

 

I haven't tried these hybrids with a stock length shaft, I got these shafts built with the extra length. I will try your suggestion of choking down and see if anything happens, along with your face control check.

 

The shaft weight of the Aldila is 85, and I play NSPRO 95 R in my irons (those were fitted a year ago. and they are perfect, I love them). 
 

I don't currently play any fairways, I've got the 26 in my 4 iron slot, 22 in the 3 iron/7 wood slot, then mini driver as my 3 wood, and driver. 
 

I did previously have a 7 wood in the bag, with a couple of different non-fitted R flex shafts, nothing felt right and had problems with ballooning in the wind (I play a windy beach course), and I did occasionally have a similar big left miss, but much less frequently.
 

I tried the 26 hybrid in place of my original 4 iron and really liked every thing about it, so decided to replace the 7 wood with the 22 hybrid and so far it's all very similar to the 26 expect for that tendency for the big left miss (the straight shots have been very good, longer than expected and great trajectory). 
 

I was hoping to figure out this area of the bag myself (have been fit for driver and irons), but it's obviously proving difficult and fitting might be my best answer.

However if you have any ideas after reading my responses, I'm all ears.

 

Thanks for the help 👍🏻

[Howard_Jones]

Stuart is right, but take a ballmarker/ sharpie line test for line angle, so you can see it for yourself if its upright at impact or not

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

@Stuart_G Firstly thank you for your ongoing contribution to this forum, always very much appreciated.

 

You're welcome.

 

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

 

 

 

The shaft weight of the Aldila is 85, and I play NSPRO 95 R in my irons (those were fitted a year ago. and they are perfect, I love them). 
 

 

Not an unreasonable weight progression but unfortunately that doesn't mean that the shaft weight might not be potentially part of the problem - especially with the longer playing length of the 22*.

 

Playing length, shaft weight, and head weight all have to work together - any change in one could mean the need to change one or both of the others.

 

 

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

I don't currently play any fairways, I've got the 26 in my 4 iron slot, 22 in the 3 iron/7 wood slot, then mini driver as my 3 wood, and driver. 
 

 

Don't know if it will help or not - but it might not hurt to hear the shaft weights and playing lengths and head models (and any hosel settings) of the mini and driver.

 

 

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

I was hoping to figure out this area of the bag myself (have been fit for driver and irons), but it's obviously proving difficult and fitting might be my best answer.

 

I'm all for fittings - but the problem is finding a fitter worth going to.   So sometimes it is best to try and figure these things out by yourself - with a little guidance.     Howard's DIY driver tune up thread is actually applicable to all the longer clubs - and even to the irons for parts of it (shaft weight and swing weight - just not length).    The only problem you might run into is not being able to test out lighter shaft weights.    But a trip to any retail outlet with an Ping fitting cart could provide access to at least the alta 73 gm shaft.

 

It certainly couldn't hurt going through it - all it requires is a bucket of balls at the range, some foot powder spray, and some lead tape (high density is better).

 

 

 

[mc2]

17 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

You're welcome.

 

 

Not an unreasonable weight progression but unfortunately that doesn't mean that the shaft weight might not be potentially part of the problem - especially with the longer playing length of the 22*.

 

Playing length, shaft weight, and head weight all have to work together - any change in one could mean the need to change one or both of the others.

 

 

 

Don't know if it will help or not - but it might not hurt to hear the shaft weights and playing lengths and head models (and any hosel settings) of the mini and driver.

 

 

 

I'm all for fittings - but the problem is finding a fitter worth going to.   So sometimes it is best to try and figure these things out by yourself - with a little guidance.     Howard's DIY driver tune up thread is actually applicable to all the longer clubs - and even to the irons for parts of it (shaft weight and swing weight - just not length).    The only problem you might run into is not being able to test out lighter shaft weights.    But a trip to any retail outlet with an Ping fitting cart could provide access to at least the alta 73 gm shaft.

 

It certainly couldn't hurt going through it - all it requires is a bucket of balls at the range, some foot powder spray, and some lead tape (high density is better).

 

 

 

Driver was recently fitted (I'm only 3 rounds in), TSR2 11 degree (B2 hosel), heavier weight in the head (spec sheet says: plus 6), Mitsubishi C6 Blue 50 (stiff, but made softer slightly, is it called soft stepping in a driver shaft?), 45.5" length. Feels and plays great, and I cannot do anything to make this go left, except left edge of fairway at worse. 

Mini was not fitted and is the 300 13.5, playing at 15 (which is an upright setting), Riptide 50 5.5R, never loved the feel of this shaft, but the results have always been decent. I have found the mini to be very left bias, and I hit it left a lot, but it's no where near as exaggerated as the hybrid miss. I've got the mini at a shorter playing length, around 3 wood length. 
 

I have tried quite a few Alta ping shafts in previous hybrids (also fairways and drivers), and I never seem to gel with them and always go looking for something else.
 

I will take yours and Howard's advice about testing out a few things at the range to see if I can narrow down the problem. 
 

I had a round this morning and payed closer attention to my left miss, I did find after a bad hybrid miss my body was very open. I hadn't realised this previously as I wasn't paying attention, so it could all be swing fault to be honest. Possibly swing fault that gets exaggerated on the hybrids compared to other clubs. I'm going to look into getting another lesson soon if I can figure out a fix for it.
 

I think it's worth doing some testing on the range with the hybrids either way. 

 

Appreciate the help!