Rory Quote on Bay Hill set up...

[2over]

I saw Rory Mcilroy getting heat for saying Bay Hill was set up for bogeys not birdies that the fans want to see. I'm totally with Rory on this! Bay Hill this weekend was the postcard for "tricked up". When the best players in the world can't make 10-15 footers and are 3-putting from 20 feet, that's not golf. That's ridiculous. If you think tour pros are anything like weekend warriors you're seriously deluded. I've hovered around scratch-3 hdcp and can tell you first hand that even a pro bouncing between Korn Ferry and mini-tours will make scratch ams look like double digit hc duffers. Seriously. And every single one of them will putt the lights out on greens that'd be unplayable for most of us. This particular pro I know, when he was a college player, on an Arnold Palmer signature course in a D-1 intercollegiate tourney shot 63-62 from 7450. I played the course the next day (from 6950) and 3-putted several times from inside 20 feet. So when PGA tour pros can't make putts you know the conditions are truly ridiculous.

 

What I hate about this "I want to see the pros make bogies" attitude is that it trickles down from the 12 hdcp tools who sit on the board of directors to the club pros and supers. A private club in my town that hosts a senior tour event prides itself on greens that roll 12-14 on the stimp, every freakin' day. Playing with a 20 mph wind the other day the greens were totally unplayable. The wind was moving my golf ball on the practice green after it had come to rest! It's no fun to hit 12 greens, strike it well, and struggle to shoot 82 because you are just trying not to 3 putt from 12 feet. Please face reality: the pros are on a different golf planet than even decent ams. They will shoot low 60's, high 50's on a typical country club course set up for the club championship where the champ will shoot +2.

 

Just sayin'. Rory's speaks the truth. Listen to him.

[ShortGolfer]

Is that why the Pros adjusted to the greens by hitting safely on to the green even though it left them fifty foot putts?

A lag put from 50 feet and then a short putt for two.

 

Why try to attack the pin if the putts aren't makeable from 10 to 15ft? 

 

The end result was quite watchable on TV with eight players right at the top of the leaderboard.                           

[Dutch1008]

5 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

The end result was quite watchable on TV with eight players right at the top of the leaderboard. 

The end result was a snooze fest. Don't get me wrong, I do think that the tour should toughen up most of the events they play. I think accurate driving should be rewarded and inaccurate tee shots penalized. But putting shouldn't come down to luck. Nobody made anything down the stretch. Kitayama's birdie on 17 was like the only putt made outside of 6-8 ft over the last 3-6 holes. The greens were crap by the end. 

[Abh159]

What's really crazy is you never hear the winner complaining about how hard the course was or how it wasn't fair. They must play a different, easier course...

 

 

[PedronNiall]

I don't like when the greens aren't in good condition where bumps and the like can rob a player of a well struck, well read putt. I can take or leave the greens like this past week that won't even hold a wedge at times, but if everyone's playing the exact same conditions and the greens are maintained as they should be I don't see an issue. Otherwise we'd see nothing but birdie fests every weekend of the year. 

 

Rory seemed to be in a familiar spot of just being slightly off on putting and having it cost him the win. The best players adapt and win, and that's what happened yesterday with Kitayama. 

 

That said, the best players also know it's never their own fault when they come up short & have zero short-term memory when it comes to what they might have been off on. It would probably be more surprising to hear him come out and say anything else other than it was the setup that cost him. 

[Dutch1008]

30 minutes ago, 2over said:

I saw Rory Mcilroy getting heat for saying Bay Hill was set up for bogeys not birdies that the fans want to see. I'm totally with Rory on this! Bay Hill this weekend was the postcard for "tricked up". When the best players in the world can't make 10-15 footers and are 3-putting from 20 feet, that's not golf. That's ridiculous. If you think tour pros are anything like weekend warriors you're seriously deluded. I've hovered around scratch-3 hdcp and can tell you first hand that even a pro bouncing between Korn Ferry and mini-tours will make scratch ams look like double digit hc duffers. Seriously. And every single one of them will putt the lights out on greens that'd be unplayable for most of us. This particular pro I know, when he was a college player, on an Arnold Palmer signature course in a D-1 intercollegiate tourney shot 63-62 from 7450. I played the course the next day (from 6950) and 3-putted several times from inside 20 feet. So when PGA tour pros can't make putts you know the conditions are truly ridiculous.

 

What I hate about this "I want to see the pros make bogies" attitude is that it trickles down from the 12 hdcp tools who sit on the board of directors to the club pros and supers. A private club in my town that hosts a senior tour event prides itself on greens that roll 12-14 on the stimp, every freakin' day. Playing with a 20 mph wind the other day the greens were totally unplayable. The wind was moving my golf ball on the practice green after it had come to rest! It's no fun to hit 12 greens, strike it well, and struggle to shoot 82 because you are just trying not to 3 putt from 12 feet. Please face reality: the pros are on a different golf planet than even decent ams. They will shoot low 60's, high 50's on a typical country club course set up for the club championship where the champ will shoot +2.

 

Just sayin'. Rory's speaks the truth. Listen to him.

Rory was caught between a rock and a hard place. No player will ever insult that venue because the media will spin it as a dig against Arnie. But the greens got away from them on Sunday. Outside of Chambers Bay, I can't remember a field of top players putting as badly as they did down the stretch yesterday. Practically nothing outside of 6 ft was made on the back 9 after the early morning wave. 

[munichop]

Setups like yesterday are derivative of the equipment changes that allow a player  to overpower a typical layout. So to protect par you have to have mini putt hole locations and silly green speeds. Even then with no wind the players make a lot of birdies.  It never occurs to these guys that playing for par is a good strategy.  They bomb and gouge their way thru the course and expect their short game will save them if needed.  Given the previous 3 rounds you would think guys would try to hit more fairways, then worry about whether to take on a hole location. 

Bay Hill is an example that you can make any course really hard if you want to.  And they want to at that tournament.

[Dutch1008]

16 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

I don't like when the greens aren't in good condition where bumps and the like can rob a player of a well struck, well read putt. I can take or leave the greens like this past week that won't even hold a wedge at times, but if everyone's playing the exact same conditions and the greens are maintained as they should be I don't see an issue. Otherwise we'd see nothing but birdie fests every weekend of the year. 

 

Rory seemed to be in a familiar spot of just being slightly off on putting and having it cost him the win. The best players adapt and win, and that's what happened yesterday with Kitayama. 

 

That said, the best players also know it's never their own fault when they come up short & have zero short-term memory when it comes to what they might have been off on. It would probably be more surprising to hear him come out and say anything else other than it was the setup that cost him. 

It didn't seem like the players had a problem adjusting to the firmness of the greens. I don't remember seeing a bunch of golf balls bouncing off the back of the green or anything like that. I also didn't see players complaining about the rough. It just seemed like nobody could make anything on the back 9. If one player had a bad day, like Spieth missing 5 putts < 6ft on the back 9 alone, that'd be one thing. His alignment was off, he lost his stroke, whatever. But nobody was making anything. Rory, Jordan, Scottie, Hatton, English, even Kitayama. They did nothing down the stretch, with one exception, Kitayama's 8ft on 17. Congrats to him for making it, just seems like we should have seen a 2-3 man playoff at -10 as opposed to everybody limping home.   

Edited March 6, 2023 by Dutch1008

[DFS PFD]

God forbid they have to work for it 4-5 weeks out of the year. 90% of the courses they play are set up for scoring, I enjoy watching them have to really earn their score once in awhile. 

[third-times-a-charm]

I think both sides of the argument have merit and you can never win. Agronomy is not an exact science and within the span of a tournament you cant have it setup for easy and hard scoring of birdies and bogies. It seems that if its setup for birdies you have very low scores and very few bogies - but if you setup hard "for bogies" (which tbh I dont think the USGA purposely does, some courses are just hard) you have a chance of a few guys birdieing AND bogieing that you dont get the other way around.

 

And lets not revise history - all of these "top players" on the leaderboard that were in the chase stacked at the top made plenty of amateur errors all day by driving it into the rough, flubbing shots out of it, and other management errors - like Rory himself claiming he "didnt know he was in the lead" so he hooked a shot left being aggressive. Okay, Rory. Jordan played well in the morning and lost his putter on the back. Rory opened with bogies on the front and did well until the 14-15th where he fell apart off the greens.

 

Going into the minutiae of scoring well on a "tricked up" course (as a previous poster called it) like BH this past weekend showed that players need to not just know how to work the ball left and right but also how to flight spin. How was KK able to hit greens and have his balls stop even with no green to work with front-to-back while others ran their shots through the back of them each time. It tests all kinds of skills and pros on the PGAT get lazy just like any of us do down the back stretch.

 

It was stated multiple times that the USGA, BH Staff, and PGAT all knew the greens by Saturday were running faster than they did last year which was a doozy. A subtle submissions and "oopsies" but nonetheless they did what they could to slow them down by Saturday by not rolling them and watering them overnight. The tee boxes were moved way up this year as well especially on the Par 3s.

 

Some weeks will be harder than others and we have this talk EVERY year at Bay Hill. "Its so hard" by the pros. This and that. Sometimes you have a Rahm that says "I love the pain, and I'll be back" and then you have the Rory's that will always complain until they win (again).

 

No one really wins, apparently. Except me, since I shot an 85 back in early February and I'm a 12. I should get my Master's invite in the mail shortly.

Edited March 6, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[Dutch1008]

4 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

How was KK able to hit greens and have his balls stop even with no green to work with front-to-back while others ran their shots through the back of them each time.

The dude shot 72 with a triple and multiple 3 putts. He also put his drive on 18 into the left rough. Let's not pretend like he played with some tactical brilliance while the rest of the field was recklessly playing bomb and gauge. That's not what happened. He hung on for dear life with a couple great shots down the stretch. He deserves a lot of kudos for the tee shot on 17, especially after 3 putting on 16 for par. But it was a pretty limp finish for the whole field and pretty boring to watch.

 

BTW, I'm glad Kitayama won. He seems like a genuinely nice dude. Plus, I enjoy when the little guy (no pun intended) steals a big event on occasion. Gives credence to the idea of earning it on the course vs just hitting the lottery in the Greg Norman Super Sponsor Exemption Series. Just feels like the green conditions held us back from Kitayama being forced to win it on 18 or having to face off against Rory/Speith/Scheffler in a playoff.   

 

Regardless, on to the Players. Hopefully someone can go thermonuclear down the stretch to win it like Rickie once did. 

[KrazyTrain18]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

I don't like when the greens aren't in good condition where bumps and the like can rob a player of a well struck, well read putt. I can take or leave the greens like this past week that won't even hold a wedge at times, but if everyone's playing the exact same conditions and the greens are maintained as they should be I don't see an issue. Otherwise we'd see nothing but birdie fests every weekend of the year. 

 

Rory seemed to be in a familiar spot of just being slightly off on putting and having it cost him the win. The best players adapt and win, and that's what happened yesterday with Kitayama. 

 

That said, the best players also know it's never their own fault when they come up short & have zero short-term memory when it comes to what they might have been off on. It would probably be more surprising to hear him come out and say anything else other than it was the setup that cost him. 

 

There are many regions in North America where greens are in "good condition" but will always have bumps or blemishes that can negatively impact a good putt. Nothing can be done to remedy this due to the types of grass that thrive in these climates and average weather seen year round.  Golf isn't a perfect game and the vast majority of golfers rarely get to experience perfect conditions, I don't feel any sympathy for a tour pro having to deal with that every once in a while.  

[Titleist99]

Rough too thick......Players whine

Rough too short ....Players whine

Greens too slow....Players whine

Greens too slick....Players whine

Course too long....Players whine

Course too short....Players whine

 

Good thing about golf, everybody plays the same golf course and the lowest score wins.

Kirk Kitayama adjusted the best at Bay HILL today and was crowned the Champion.

 

To me the event was very entertaining, and I can't ask for more than that.🙂

[mosesgolf]

I think Jack once said that the it's the same setup for everyone and the complainers are the ones that were not going to win.

 

I can't ever recall Tiger complaining about a course setup.

[Bye]

Rory wasn’t watching so it’s unlikely he knew how good it was. Probably just a quote after he had finished which everyone now wants to pull him down on. We all know how honest he is when he speaks. 

 

It was a great contest, going into the back 9, one of eight or nine players could have won. It look like Jordan would pull away, then that Rory would snatch it etc. 

 

How Kitayama held it together after one of the drives he hit on Saturday is beyond me. 

 

It’s a tough track and it’s nice to see a bit of variety. 25 under winning every week would be dull.

 

 

 

[Naptime]

Pros should expect to earn it. They all played the same course.  No whining. 🙂

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Naptime

[Dutch1008]

13 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

I think Jack once said that the it's the same setup for everyone and the complainers are the ones that were not going to win.

 

I can't ever recall Tiger complaining about a course setup.

I'm pretty sure that Tiger has complained about the lack of speed on the greens of every course he has ever played. 

 

Well to be fair to Tiger. He doesn't "complain" about the greens, he just uses slow greens as the  stock excuse for any event he doesn't putt the lights out. So like passive aggressive complaining. 😆  

[Titleist99]

20 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

I think Jack once said that the it's the same setup for everyone and the complainers are the ones that were not going to win.

 

I can't ever recall Tiger complaining about a course setup.

Exactly. If they think this was tough , wait til the get to the majors.

[munichop]

The players want a predictable set of course conditions that allow them to score without much thinking.  Last week the conditions required some thinking and many were not up to the task.

[bscinstnct]

I noticed that the greens weren’t holding but it wasn’t ridiculous and I like to see the players begging for the ball to, “stay on the fringe!” 🤣

 

Same with the putting, tough but not anywhere near as brutal as Augusta/US opens can get.

 

At one point I think everyone including KK had surged then fallen back to -8/-7

 

KK, after a triple, was the only guy who sacked up and clawed his way back to -9 👍 

[Pepperturbo]

Rory was right, BH was set up to challenge the pros, NOT to feed birdie fest viewer ideals.  I liked it that way.  Bay Hill has a reputation to uphold too.  When a course plays fast, as BH did, it makes pros think seriously about where they need to land the ball, knowing rough and run out could take the ball into the ugly rough, well past the pin. 

 

Spieth and other tour guys so amply demonstrated, losing their tee balls hard left, looking to pull off a hard hook from ugly rough, to the green, but getting almost a double cross, where the ball travels over the fairway to the opposite side rough.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[kmbean]

1 hour ago, third-times-a-charm said:

I think both sides of the argument have merit and you can never win. Agronomy is not an exact science and within the span of a tournament you cant have it setup for easy and hard scoring of birdies and bogies. It seems that if its setup for birdies you have very low scores and very few bogies - but if you setup hard "for bogies" (which tbh I dont think the USGA purposely does, some courses are just hard) you have a chance of a few guys birdieing AND bogieing that you dont get the other way around.

 

And lets not revise history - all of these "top players" on the leaderboard that were in the chase stacked at the top made plenty of amateur errors all day by driving it into the rough, flubbing shots out of it, and other management errors - like Rory himself claiming he "didnt know he was in the lead" so he hooked a shot left being aggressive. Okay, Rory. Jordan played well in the morning and lost his putter on the back. Rory opened with bogies on the front and did well until the 14-15th where he fell apart off the greens.

 

Going into the minutiae of scoring well on a "tricked up" course (as a previous poster called it) like BH this past weekend showed that players need to not just know how to work the ball left and right but also how to flight spin. How was KK able to hit greens and have his balls stop even with no green to work with front-to-back while others ran their shots through the back of them each time. It tests all kinds of skills and pros on the PGAT get lazy just like any of us do down the back stretch.

 

It was stated multiple times that the USGA, BH Staff, and PGAT all knew the greens by Saturday were running faster than they did last year which was a doozy. A subtle submissions and "oopsies" but nonetheless they did what they could to slow them down by Saturday by not rolling them and watering them overnight. The tee boxes were moved way up this year as well especially on the Par 3s.

 

Some weeks will be harder than others and we have this talk EVERY year at Bay Hill. "Its so hard" by the pros. This and that. Sometimes you have a Rahm that says "I love the pain, and I'll be back" and then you have the Rory's that will always complain until they win (again).

 

No one really wins, apparently. Except me, since I shot an 85 back in early February and I'm a 12. I should get my Master's invite in the mail shortly.

How does Bay Hill play on a regular basis?  I’ve always wondered about that.

[Dutch1008]

27 minutes ago, Titleist99 said:

Rough too thick......Players whine

Rough too short ....Players whine

Greens too slow....Players whine

Greens too slick....Players whine

Course too long....Players whine

Course too short....Players whine

 

Good thing about golf, everybody plays the same golf course and the lowest score wins.

Kirk Kitayama adjusted the best at Bay HILL today and was crowned the Champion.

 

To me the event was very entertaining, and I can't ask for more than that.🙂

You're absolutely right that the players will complain about both sides of the coin. You're also right that Kitayama is a deserving winner. I just found the event pretty boring down the stretch. 

[SLP1967]

I loved the tough test.... when the tour comes to my town, Dallas, they will have a birdiefest and 28 under will win.... and I like that too!

 

its fun seeing both sides!

[vandyfan]

Bay Hill seems to require tour players to hit long irons more than most courses as well which I, for one, tend to enjoy. Also, I have no interest in ever playing Bay Hill. It looks like a nightmare. 

[third-times-a-charm]

20 minutes ago, kmbean said:

How does Bay Hill play on a regular basis?  I’ve always wondered about that.

 

Nothing like this. The overseed/rough is only November-March and the green speed is only for the tournament. Its still a tough course, but without all the extra that makes it hard for the pros. The weeks leading up to the tournament would be the hardest it plays for members and guests due to the rough but I think it's fun.

 

5 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

Bay Hill seems to require tour players to hit long irons more than most courses as well which I, for one, tend to enjoy. Also, I have no interest in ever playing Bay Hill. It looks like a nightmare. 

 

I like to think my 12 handicap is actually a 5 since I only play here. 😂

[tiderider]

2 hours ago, Abh159 said:

What's really crazy is you never hear the winner complaining about how hard the course was or how it wasn't fair. They must play a different, easier course...

 

 

and we're done ... 

[CourseJester]

Much better spectacle watching the pros have to think about their shots rather than just dropping the ball on top of the pin. 

Edited March 6, 2023 by CourseJester

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

You're absolutely right that the players will complain about both sides of the coin. You're also right that Kitayama is a deserving winner. I just found the event pretty boring down the stretch. 

 

Obviously this is a matter of taste, but I found it pretty exciting down the stretch.

 

As the event wound down, that group all clustered at -8 was in a difficult position... Knowing that making a birdie would be absolutely HUGE, i.e. making birdie would likely be an outright win or at least knocking that playoff from 5 guys to 2. But also knowing that the course was playing so hard that simply staying even to finish out -8 just MIGHT be enough to snatch a bit of a playoff, but at the same time that there were enough -8 players that you knew finishing -7 would drop you out. 

 

I would have found it less exciting if you had that group of 5 guys clustered at -8 and it was a foregone conclusion that you'd need to finish -10 just to even sniff a playoff. 

[Dutch1008]

35 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

As the event wound down, that group all clustered at -8 was in a difficult position... Knowing that making a birdie would be absolutely HUGE, i.e. making birdie would likely be an outright win or at least knocking that playoff from 5 guys to 2. But also knowing that the course was playing so hard that simply staying even to finish out -8 just MIGHT be enough to snatch a bit of a playoff, but at the same time that there were enough -8 players that you knew finishing -7 would drop you out. 

How were they in a difficult position? Meaning, what conservative/aggressive choice were they forced to make coming down the stretch? 

 

Everybody at -8 should have be chasing one more birdie simply because Kitayama was at -8 walking up to the short Par 5 16th. Every player should have been targeting -9 as the minimum number to get into a playoff. Kitayama let the field off the hook by 3 jacking #16 for Par. 

 

The only difficult choice anybody had was how aggressive to be on 17. Most aimed for the middle of the green. Kitayama was the only guy to go right of the pin. He should get a lot of credit for that, but the whole field played 16 & 18 the same away. It doesn't really ask you for anything else.  

Edited March 7, 2023 by Dutch1008