G430 Physics/SW question, lighter back weight vs. CB shaft?

[jadedennill]

My G430 Max head is amazing, but feels really heavy with the Kai’li 60X @ 45”. 
All things being equal, would I be better off getting a lighter back weight to drop the SW or a CB shaft? 
If I can keep the mass higher, but swing it faster the ball speed should be faster than swinging it that same speed but delivering less mass into the ball right? If that’s true, I’m looking for a CB shaft, if I’m way off on that theory, then a lighter back weight would be cheaper and just as fast?

thanks for the help

[Howard_Jones]

5 hours ago, jadedennill said:

My G430 Max head is amazing, but feels really heavy with the Kai’li 60X @ 45”. 
All things being equal, would I be better off getting a lighter back weight to drop the SW or a CB shaft? 
If I can keep the mass higher, but swing it faster the ball speed should be faster than swinging it that same speed but delivering less mass into the ball right? If that’s true, I’m looking for a CB shaft, if I’m way off on that theory, then a lighter back weight would be cheaper and just as fast?

thanks for the help

We cant.

A Shaft thats clearly back weighted, could be seen as a fusion where the front its lighter than normal, and the butt side has more weight than normal, while the weight itself, remains the same.

Example Grafalloy Supercharged models
They have the same uncut shaft wgt as the others (plus minus a few grams), and the CW balance of the Supercharged model, reduce SW with 4-5 SWP depending on play length.

If we simplify it, and say its 5 grams butt side for each SWP, and that the Super Charged model reduced SW by 4.5 SWP, we MIGHT think that adding 4.5 swp x 5 grams = 22 grams to the butt side of the standard STADARD model can get us there...

Sorry, we messed it up BAD
TOTAL weight or lets "isolate" it to shaft weight has now given us 2 shafts options thats MILES appart.

We have the OG SC models thats 65 grams
Our "home made" SC shaft is 65 +22 = 87 grams
How can a 87 grams shaft feel like a 65 grams?

The 65 grams would be a "driver shaft", while our home made version might be used for a 7W or 9W, but NOT the driver.

SO, if we wanted to make a "home made" CW balanced shaft, we must start with how many SWP down, to get the weight we shall add, and lets say it was 22 grams like my example here.
If the shaft weight we seek, is still 65 grams, the numbers becomes

65 grams MINUS 22 as CW,= we must start from a shaft thats only 43 grams uncut. 

Simply forget CW weighting if the club already feels too heavy, you only make it worse, so we will either have to reduce HEAD weight, or shorten play length, since its really a head weight issue, NOT a shaft BP issue, and that 43 grams shaft, will most likely NOT be a useful shaft for us if 65 grams shaft wgt is what fits us.

DONT use head wgt additions to gain ball speed, IMPACT LOCATION is the most important, and a head weight thats not "correct for you", will prevent you form getting a tight impact pattern in the area of the face where COR and ball speed is at the max.

On the paper, 10 grams head wgt is 4 yards, but thats mostly of academical interest, we can hardly ever use it to gain distance, so we see it as a "hidden helper", when we shorten a club (and potentially loose club speed), where added head weight is NEEDED to get feel of head wgt right. Then we get back some of the distance loss a shorter PL might give. (but most actually GAIN club speed when going shorter, even with added head wgt)

More info on how to optimize your drivers performance here
 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[Guest RobS]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

We cant.

A Shaft thats clearly back weighted, could be seen as a fusion where the front its lighter than normal, and the butt side has more weight than normal, while the weight itself, remains the same.

Example Grafalloy Supercharged models
They have the same uncut shaft wgt as the others (plus minus a few grams), and the CW balance of the Supercharged model, reduce SW with 4-5 SWP depending on play length.

If we simplify it, and say its 5 grams butt side for each SWP, and that the Super Charged model reduced SW by 4.5 SWP, we MIGHT think that adding 4.5 swp x 5 grams = 22 grams to the butt side of the standard STADARD model can get us there...

Sorry, we messed it up BAD
TOTAL weight or lets "isolate" it to shaft weight has now given us 2 shafts options thats MILES appart.

We have the OG SC models thats 65 grams
Our "home made" SC shaft is 65 +22 = 87 grams
How can a 87 grams shaft feel like a 65 grams?

The 65 grams would be a "driver shaft", while our home made version might be used for a 7W or 9W, but NOT the driver.

SO, if we wanted to make a "home made" CW balanced shaft, we must start with how many SWP down, to get the weight we shall add, and lets say it was 22 grams like my example here.
If the shaft weight we seek, is still 65 grams, the numbers becomes

65 grams MINUS 22 as CW,= we must start from a shaft thats only 43 grams uncut. 

Simply forget CW weighting if the club already feels too heavy, you only make it worse, so we will either have to reduce HEAD weight, or shorten play length, since its really a head weight issue, NOT a shaft BP issue, and that 43 grams shaft, will most likely NOT be a useful shaft for us if 65 grams shaft wgt is what fits us.

DONT use head wgt additions to gain ball speed, IMPACT LOCATION is the most important, and a head weight thats not "correct for you", will prevent you form getting a tight impact pattern in the area of the face where COR and ball speed is at the max.

On the paper, 10 grams head wgt is 4 yards, but thats mostly of academical interest, we can hardly ever use it to gain distance, so we see it as a "hidden helper", when we shorten a club (and potentially loose club speed), where added head weight is NEEDED to get feel of head wgt right. Then we get back some of the distance loss a shorter PL might give. (but most actually GAIN club speed when going shorter, even with added head wgt)

More info on how to optimize your drivers performance here
 

 

Howard, I may be wrong but I think what he's asking is:

Do I keep the Kai'li shaft and reduce the head weight?

Or

Do I keep the same head weight, get rid of the Kai'li and go with a CB shaft to produce a lighter feel?

 

It sounds like you may be answering a question of adding head weight to increase ball speed or adding weight to counterbalance a non-counterbalance shaft.  I'm not questioning what you posted. I think it just may be a correct answer for a different question than what was asked.

[WristySwing]

9 hours ago, jadedennill said:

My G430 Max head is amazing, but feels really heavy with the Kai’li 60X @ 45”. 
All things being equal, would I be better off getting a lighter back weight to drop the SW or a CB shaft? 
If I can keep the mass higher, but swing it faster the ball speed should be faster than swinging it that same speed but delivering less mass into the ball right? If that’s true, I’m looking for a CB shaft, if I’m way off on that theory, then a lighter back weight would be cheaper and just as fast?

thanks for the help

 

This may be of interest to you.  TXG tested this using the 400 Max and a traditional shaft (actually not unlike your Kaili) and a CB shaft.  They found higher ball speed in the CB model.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA55TTeTm28 

 

A second video showing total vs. swingweight and the differences that could arise with that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPun9qS-c_Q&t=801s

 

[Howard_Jones]

59 minutes ago, RobS said:

Howard, I may be wrong but I think what he's asking is:

Do I keep the Kai'li shaft and reduce the head weight?

Or

Do I keep the same head weight, get rid of the Kai'li and go with a CB shaft to produce a lighter feel?

 

It sounds like you may be answering a question of adding head weight to increase ball speed or adding weight to counterbalance a non-counterbalance shaft.  I'm not questioning what you posted. I think it just may be a correct answer for a different question than what was asked.

Maybe...it will not be the first time if i did 🙂

But here is what seems to be the question
"would I be better off getting a lighter back weight to drop the SW or a CB shaft? "

Without saying - Get a CB shaft, i explained why adding back weight will NOT work, so it was implicit from me, if we want the CB effect, get a CB designed shaft, we are not able to make it our self without´ending with a way different shaft wgt than we wanted.

The OPs next idea was to keep head wgt, since head wgt is a factor for distance, and we are back to the same. CB shafts is made to give us 2 options. Either play it longer, or with more head wgt than the norm, without the "heavy feel" of head wgt.

So, A Counter balanced shaft or simply a shaft with a very high balance point seems to be what he should go for, and today there should be quite a few options for that.
 

[Howard_Jones]

54 minutes ago, WristySwing said:

 

This may be of interest to you.  TXG tested this using the 400 Max and a traditional shaft (actually not unlike your Kaili) and a CB shaft.  They found higher ball speed in the CB model.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA55TTeTm28 

 

A second video showing total vs. swingweight and the differences that could arise with that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPun9qS-c_Q&t=801s

 

I dont think its right to judge it this way.
YES its more ball speed we have as target, but when you look at the datas, the reason for higher ball speed was NOT higher club speed, but improved impact, and its noting that indicate that improved impact will be what you get using a CB shaft.

If CB shafts "worked" like we are told they are, we should have seen higher club speed, but we dont, it was actually lower by about 1 mph, so the extra 2 mph ball speed came from improved impact, but isolated, that has little or nothing to do with CB weighted shafts or not.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Howard_Jones

[BraxtonFullerton]

Couple of quick options, toss a little lead tape up near the bottom of the grip, see how you like the feel of the club and if it changes numbers for you...

 

Second easy option is picking up a heavier grip that'll move center of mass up the shaft too.

 

Other than that, your best bet is finding a counter-balanced shaft: Tensei Orange, Alta CB, Hzrdus Smoke Yellow, RDX Green (RDX Blue might also be worth checking out), Ping Tour, Aldila Rogue...

[WristySwing]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

I dont think its right to judge it this way.
YES its more ball speed we have as target, but when you look at the datas, the reason for higher ball speed was NOT higher club speed, but improved impact, and its noting that indicate that improved impact will be what you get using a CB shaft.

If CB shafts "worked" like we are told they are, we should have seen higher club speed, but we dont, it was actually lower by about 1 mph, so the extra 2 mph ball speed came from improved impact, but isolated, that has little or nothing to do with CB weighted shafts or not.

 

They didn't talk about swing speed as the reason for doing the video.  They talked strictly about using balance point and swing weight to dial in improved strike location for a particular player.  That's exactly what the video showed as well.  They discuss what they want to do in the first 35 seconds of the video.

[jadedennill]

3 hours ago, RobS said:

Howard, I may be wrong but I think what he's asking is:

Do I keep the Kai'li shaft and reduce the head weight?

Or

Do I keep the same head weight, get rid of the Kai'li and go with a CB shaft to produce a lighter feel?

 

It sounds like you may be answering a question of adding head weight to increase ball speed or adding weight to counterbalance a non-counterbalance shaft.  I'm not questioning what you posted. I think it just may be a correct answer for a different question than what was asked.

That’s exactly what I’m asking, but I appreciated the detailed response. Haha

[Howard_Jones]

1 hour ago, WristySwing said:

 

They didn't talk about swing speed as the reason for doing the video.  They talked strictly about using balance point and swing weight to dial in improved strike location for a particular player.  That's exactly what the video showed as well.  They discuss what they want to do in the first 35 seconds of the video.

Sorry, i did not bother to see the full video, so i was not aware of that.
I went strait to the LM datas, and what i found was lower club speed, but higher ball speed due to improved impact, just like a ordinary fitting, and then its no connection to CW balanced or not.

 

[Guest RobS]

On 3/8/2023 at 11:20 AM, jadedennill said:

That’s exactly what I’m asking, but I appreciated the detailed response. Haha

For what its worth, the Ping heads are pretty heavy.  206g for the Max and 208g for the Lst.  I've also found the Kai'li to swingweight a little on the heavy side for it's weight.  Off the rack with a Kai'li, you should see around a D5 swingweight.  The stock weight in the Max is 25 and the Lst is 22.  I'd go to your local golf store and see if they'll let you borrow a Lst 22 gram weight to try in your Max for a few swings to see how it feels.  If it feels better but not quite there, you can order a 19gr weight (I think Golfworks sells them in 3gr increments).  I currently play the G425 Max and replaced the stock weight with the lighter Lst weight to get the head weight feel I was looking for.

[vernon]

Howard I think you should have been a rocket scientist!

 

Your stuff always fascinates me even though I have to read it two or three times to attain any level of comprehension!

[Howard_Jones]

28 minutes ago, vernon said:

Howard I think you should have been a rocket scientist!

 

Your stuff always fascinates me even though I have to read it two or three times to attain any level of comprehension!

Its enough with one of them in the family, my cousin is working for Kongsberg Defense and Aerospace...and he DONT play golf....not yet, but im working on it 🙂
 

[AbSWFPGA]

Has anyone taken the weight out completely and tried the driver?