Unusual Forward Tee Scenario

[DaveLeeNC]

A couple of the guys in my regular Friday Golf group are now in their mid-80's and are considering moving up a set of tees from what historically would have been called the "Senior Tees". These are the tees that would commonly be called the 'Ladies Tees' (Red Tees) and there is actually a reason to use this name in this case. 

 

The 13th hole from the Red Tees for the ladies is a par 5 at 369 yards. But for the men this tee is a par 4. So if you are playing the Red Tees on the 13th hole (as a man) you will be playing a 369 yard par 4. If you are playing the next set of tees back (Green) you will be (on this hole) playing a 331 yard par 4. 

 

I have verified this in the GHIN app by looking at hole-by-hole scoring where you can actually see the GHIN par assignments and hole lengths. This hole (for men from the Red Tees) is 369 yards and a par 4. This is pretty unusual, IMHO. Has anyone else seen this? I don't know if the guys that I play with understand this or not. It sure surprised me. FWIW, we often play Stableford so this will be a pretty tough hole for these guys (driver landing area is uphill). 

 

dave

 

ps. There is another hole that is par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for the men on this course (hole #2), but the tees "don't cross" like they do on hole #13. 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[rogolf]

6 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

A couple of the guys in my regular Friday Golf group are now in their mid-80's and are considering moving up a set of tees from what historically would have been called the "Senior Tees". These are the tees that would commonly be called the 'Ladies Tees' (Red Tees) and there is actually a reason to use this name in this case. 

 

The 13th hole from the Red Tees for the ladies is a par 5 at 369 yards. But for the men this tee is a par 4. So if you are playing the Red Tees on the 13th hole (as a man) you will be playing a 369 yard par 4. If you are playing the next set of tees back (Green) you will be (on this hole) playing a 331 yard par 4. 

 

I have verified this in the GHIN app by looking at hole-by-hole scoring where you can actually see the GHIN par assignments and hole lengths. This hole (for men from the Red Tees) is 369 yards and a par 4. This is pretty unusual, IMHO. Has anyone else seen this? I don't know if the guys that I play with understand this or not. It sure surprised me. FWIW, we often play Stableford so this will be a pretty tough hole for these guys (driver landing area is uphill). 

 

dave

 

ps. There is another hole that is par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for the men on this course (hole #2), but the tees "don't cross" like they do on hole #13. 

 

Imo, it should be a par 4 for the men, but it's also confusing because of the different length.  Suggest having everyone in your group(s) play from the green tees and get your association to rate it as a course with that green tee in use.

[DaveLeeNC]

@rogolf And there is the alternative of playing that hole from the green tees (for the Red Tee guys) and using the yardage adjustments in the Handicap Manual to tweak the rating/slope (which would have to be done manually). We would also have to tweak the course handicap calculations as well. 

 

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

@rogolf And there is the alternative of playing that hole from the green tees (for the Red Tee guys) and using the yardage adjustments in the Handicap Manual to tweak the rating/slope (which would have to be done manually). We would also have to tweak the course handicap calculations as well. 

 

dave

You can't do the manual adjustment because it is less than 100 yards.

[DaveLeeNC]

3 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

You can't do the manual adjustment because it is less than 100 yards.

 

Thanks, @ThinkingPlus. And you can't play the course because the Blue Tees aren't rated for you 🙂

 

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Thanks, @ThinkingPlus. And you can't play the course because the Blue Tees aren't rated for you 🙂

 

dave

I could play, but might not be able to post. If the delta yardage relative to the next closest tees rated for women is less than 300 yards, I could do the adjustment and post manually. 

 

It is becoming less of an issue.  More courses are rating the longer tees for women and I'm getting old with a bad back so less likely to play longer tees.

[Newby]

Get the tees rated for men if men are playing them.

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Get the tees rated for men if men are playing them.

 

The tees are rated for men. I assume what you are suggesting is the same as was suggested by @rogolf - get a new set of tees rated for men where the Red Tee location on hole #13 is more sensible. 

 

As @ThinkingPlus said the table for yardage adjustment does not extend below  100 yards. But it is not difficult to extrapolate from the existing table down to a 38 yard difference which would yield a slope change of 0 and a rating change of 0.1 (not very much). 

 

I am inclined to let our Red Tee guys tee off from the Green Tees on this hole with no change to course handicaps (or I could change it to reflect a 0.1 change in rating) and suggest that folks post strokes plus par for that hole. 

 

dave

Edited March 22, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[Pfish]

Do your 80 year olds generally reach the 13th hole in 2 from the green tees?  I’m thinking probably not on a regular basis or they wouldn’t be thinking of moving forward.  Therefore the 30 yards back would still make them expecting to have 3 shots to the green but maybe different clubs.  If they play a lot of golf maybe the extra length on that hole would bump their handicap up.  I don’t think it will make a difference in your games.

 

PS. I think all red markers should change color.  Red has a negative connotation in golf tees.  Or go to numbers.  1 for shortest, 2 for second shortest etc.  

[DaveLeeNC]

23 minutes ago, Pfish said:

Do your 80 year olds generally reach the 13th hole in 2 from the green tees?  I’m thinking probably not on a regular basis or they wouldn’t be thinking of moving forward.  Therefore the 30 yards back would still make them expecting to have 3 shots to the green but maybe different clubs.  If they play a lot of golf maybe the extra length on that hole would bump their handicap up.  I don’t think it will make a difference in your games.

 

PS. I think all red markers should change color.  Red has a negative connotation in golf tees.  Or go to numbers.  1 for shortest, 2 for second shortest etc.  

It really isn't about 'making our games work' or making indexes more accurate. The system handles all this just fine from any set of tees. THese guys simply want to play shorter courses and moving back almost 40 yards on a hole that was already difficult is going to be irritating for them - not unfair but irritating. 

 

dave

[Augster]

32 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

It really isn't about 'making our games work' or making indexes more accurate. The system handles all this just fine from any set of tees. THese guys simply want to play shorter courses and moving back almost 40 yards on a hole that was already difficult is going to be irritating for them - not unfair but irritating. 

 

dave

I’m with you. Looking at the card it’s just bizarre. If you had a mixed group of guys playing green, and guys playing red, the red guys would be the up tee on every hole and behind the green guys on that hole. At the same par. 
 

Complete oversight I’d guess. Move those guys “up” to the green tees on that hole. It won’t make any difference in their cap, but a huge difference in their enjoyment. 
 

Call it the “Men’s RED/GREEN Combo tees”. Where the only difference on the “combo” is that hole. That’s how I’d handle it anyway. 

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Complete oversight I’d guess.

And ask your golf association to provide a fix.  

[DaveLeeNC]

19 hours ago, Newby said:

Get the tees rated for men if men are playing them.

 

FWIW, the tees are rated for the men. They just don't make any sense when mixed with the Green Tees (WRT men) in the same group.

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

9 hours ago, st1800e said:

And ask your golf association to provide a fix.  

 

Since the club defines the tees I would think that it would be to the club to fix this, rather than the association. This whole thing exists because someone or some group decided that this hole would be a par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for the men. 

 

dave

[rogolf]

44 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Since the club defines the tees I would think that it would be to the club to fix this, rather than the association. This whole thing exists because someone or some group decided that this hole would be a par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for the men. 

 

dave

Why are the men using the ladies' par?  If those tees are rated for men, I suspect that hole, based on yardage, is a par 4 for the men.  Sounds like some joshing going on?

[ThinkingPlus]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

Why are the men using the ladies' par?  If those tees are rated for men, I suspect that hole, based on yardage, is a par 4 for the men.  Sounds like some joshing going on?

They aren't.  The OP indicated it plays as a par 4 for the men.

[ShortGolfer]

Aren't most courses set up for four Par 3s, four Par 5s, and ten Par 4s?  Creating a Par of 72 for the entire round.

It looks like a committee decided that they would do that for the "forward" tees as the course had enough length to do that.

[DaveLeeNC]

11 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

Aren't most courses set up for four Par 3s, four Par 5s, and ten Par 4s?  Creating a Par of 72 for the entire round.

It looks like a committee decided that they would do that for the "forward" tees as the course had enough length to do that.

Par 72 is the most common setup. But Par 70, 71, 72, and even 73 - none of these would be considered non-standard or odd. US Open courses set up for the Championship are almost always par 70. This course is par 70 for the men and par 72 for the women (the other hole with differing pars for men vs. women does not place the Red behind the Greens).

 

dave

Edited March 23, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Since the club defines the tees I would think that it would be to the club to fix this, rather than the association. This whole thing exists because someone or some group decided that this hole would be a par 5 for the ladies and par 4 for the men. 

 

dave

Golf associations have people trained to determine course ratings and slope, including assigning par for specific holes for both genders.  I would think their opinion would be helpful in resolving this anomaly. 

[DaveLeeNC]

24 minutes ago, st1800e said:

Golf associations have people trained to determine course ratings and slope, including assigning par for specific holes for both genders.  I would think their opinion would be helpful in resolving this anomaly. 

 

There are no par assessment issues or slope/rating issues here. The Club decided that the next set of tees forward of the Green Tees would play longer on hole #13. This is a course design issue (specifically related to teeing locations). I don't even know what question I would ask of the Carolina's Golf Association. 

 

dave

 

ps. I believe that this decision was made decades ago when the concept was Men's Tees and Ladies Tees and a decision was made as to how they wanted the course to play for the ladies. I doubt that anyone every considered that men might be playing those tees someday (or that ThinkingPlus and other highly skilled ladies would be playing the rear tees). 

Edited March 23, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[darkhelmet]

24 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

This course is par 70 for the men and par 72 for the women

 

Sounds to me like this is the issue -- according to the scorecard, this statement is incorrect.  Has nothing to do with men/women, just the tees.

 

According to the scorecard, anybody playing blue/white/green is playing at par 70,  anybody playing red/yellow is playing at par 72.  Somebody needs to fix it in GHIN.

 

Look at it in the other direction -- if a woman plays the green tees, is she still playing a par 72 course?  Doesn't make any logical sense that the more difficult tees would give her a 38-yard-shorter par 5 as her 13th hole.

[rogolf]

I still don't understand what the real issue is here, maybe the OP can explain it?  Men use men's par, ladies use ladies' par.  Surely mature adults can figure it out?

[Is Golf Fun or Work]

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I still don't understand what the real issue is here, maybe the OP can explain it?  Men use men's par, ladies use ladies' par.  Surely mature adults can figure it out?

Could always just identify as on those holes you want to be par 5

[DaveLeeNC]

17 minutes ago, darkhelmet said:

Sounds to me like this is the issue -- according to the scorecard, this statement is incorrect.  Has nothing to do with men/women, just the tees.

 

According to the scorecard, anybody playing blue/white/green is playing at par 70,  anybody playing red/yellow is playing at par 72.  Somebody needs to fix it in GHIN.

 

Look at it in the other direction -- if a woman plays the green tees, is she still playing a par 72 course?  Doesn't make any logical sense that the more difficult tees would give her a 38-yard-shorter par 5 as her 13th hole.

 

3 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I still don't understand what the real issue is here, maybe the OP can explain it?  Men use men's par, ladies use ladies' par.  Surely mature adults can figure it out?

 

I do not know what happens when a woman posts a score from the Green or White tees on this hole. I do know that when a man posts a score from the Red Tees it is a par 4 and (IMHO) the GHIN app is not wrong about this. 

 

@rogolf the issue is that the guys wanting to play the Red Tees find this situation on this hole to be inherently "wrong" and counter to the reason that they 'moved up'. That is the issue at hand. 

 

I posted this to find out if others had encountered this and wondered how it was handled. It sounds like (within this group) this is a unique situation. 

 

dave

[iclypso]

13 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

...is going to be irritating for them - not unfair but irritating. 

 

Yep, sounds like golf! 😊

[ThinkingPlus]

2 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

I do not know what happens when a woman posts a score from the Green or White tees on this hole. I do know that when a man posts a score from the Red Tees it is a par 4 and (IMHO) the GHIN app is not wrong about this. 

 

@rogolf the issue is that the guys wanting to play the Red Tees find this situation on this hole to be inherently "wrong" and counter to the reason that they 'moved up'. That is the issue at hand. 

 

I posted this to find out if others had encountered this and wondered how it was handled. It sounds like (within this group) this is a unique situation. 

 

dave

It is rare, but not unique.  I have run across the situation a few times. Creating a red/green combo as you suggested, even if only to accommodate that one hole, is a good solution for your seniors looking to move up. I could see odd situations like this one cropping up more often given that the USGA is being more strict about par designations vs. hole distance after the WHS changes.

[rogolf]

25 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

 

I do not know what happens when a woman posts a score from the Green or White tees on this hole. I do know that when a man posts a score from the Red Tees it is a par 4 and (IMHO) the GHIN app is not wrong about this. 

 

@rogolf the issue is that the guys wanting to play the Red Tees find this situation on this hole to be inherently "wrong" and counter to the reason that they 'moved up'. That is the issue at hand. 

 

I posted this to find out if others had encountered this and wondered how it was handled. It sounds like (within this group) this is a unique situation. 

 

dave

Are the men playing against the women?  If not, it's not a problem (and probably not a problem even if they are!).  Sometimes "get over it" is okay.

They're probably just looking to gain an advantage of an extra Stableford point? 

Edited March 23, 2023 by rogolf

[DaveLeeNC]

14 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Are the men playing against the women?  If not, it's not a problem (and probably not a problem even if they are!).  Sometimes "get over it" is okay.

They're probably just looking to gain an advantage of an extra Stableford point? 

 

Just get over it is an answer. But for a couple of these guys (one is 87 years old and golf is on the edge of his physical abilities and the other has severe surgery related restrictions) this is going to be a really frustrating hole from 40 yards back. It is severely uphill with a huge L-R slope for the first 260 'ish yards and their landing area is going to be on this slope twice from the current Red Tees. But that does not mean that it is not viable. But it DOES mean that it is irritating. 

 

dave

[darkhelmet]

Somebody associated with the course needs to employ some common sense here and do one of 2 things:

 

• Fix the information in GHIN to designate #2 and #13 par 5's for men that play either the red or yellow tees
• Create more forward "men's red" and "men's yellow" tees if you're going to force them to play them as par 4's

 

The yardages make zero sense if you're going to continue calling them par 4's for men playing the red or yellow tees.

[ThinkingPlus]

46 minutes ago, darkhelmet said:

Somebody associated with the course needs to employ some common sense here and do one of 2 things:

 

• Fix the information in GHIN to designate #2 and #13 par 5's for men that play either the red or yellow tees
• Create more forward "men's red" and "men's yellow" tees if you're going to force them to play them as par 4's

 

The yardages make zero sense if you're going to continue calling them par 4's for men playing the red or yellow tees.

Pretty sure the USGA handicap system doesn't allow your first option. There is already a tee further forward (Green) on the hole in question per your 2nd option, but all the other holes has Green > Red. Once again not really a solution although a Green/Red combo tee already suggested does fit the intent of your 2nd option.