Pro Golf Needs A Shot Clock...

[tgreenwood11]

In my group of guys at the end of the round, I’d ask “how’d you play?”…….”2 and a 1/2 hours” was the response. 😂.   That was a 4some with no carts.  5 1/2, 6 hour rounds for 2somes is insane. 20 minutes per hole is ridiculous especially when these pros rarely miss a fairway and sure as hell aren’t hunting for their ball.   One rule that should change is using a line on the golf ball. I’ve been to quite a few PGA tournaments and in one I saw a pro adjust his golf ball 5 times to get the line on the ball right. It was an 8 footer and he missed.  

[Hawkeye77]

I felt bad for Hovland but almost every time I checked the trackers or took note of the other shots being shown his group was often a hole behind, but other times just a half hole out of position - thinking the wind, being out there all day, greens firming up and all involved helped take its toll on pace of play. Not making excuses for Cantlay, I’ll even admit to yelling, “just give him the ——— putt” and cussing at him for missing greens, lol. But Henley and Morikawa (?) weren’t exactly right behind the group they were following either. I’m sure it all started with the am and worked its way through (kidding). 

[Dave230]

32 minutes ago, tgreenwood11 said:

In my group of guys at the end of the round, I’d ask “how’d you play?”…….”2 and a 1/2 hours” was the response. 😂.   That was a 4some with no carts.  5 1/2, 6 hour rounds for 2somes is insane. 20 minutes per hole is ridiculous especially when these pros rarely miss a fairway and sure as hell aren’t hunting for their ball.   One rule that should change is using a line on the golf ball. I’ve been to quite a few PGA tournaments and in one I saw a pro adjust his golf ball 5 times to get the line on the ball right. It was an 8 footer and he missed.  

2 and a half hours for a fourball carrying bags is also insane, unless it's a really short course. I agree golf needs to be quicker, but not everyone can mix golf with cross-country running lol.

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, Dave230 said:

2 and a half hours for a fourball carrying bags is also insane, unless it's a really short course. I agree golf needs to be quicker, but not everyone can mix golf with cross-country running lol.

2 1/2 hours walking and 4 guys? Sounds like a par 3 course or athletes on a mission - they can have it.  Shooting a few over par and an empty course and a cart it takes 2.25 hours to play 18 at our course at a brisk pace for one, 3 hours walking for a twosome is a good pace. 

[Esco9]

Patrick Cantlay and Xander with their weird tweaker tick movements are insane. No wonder they’re besties

[00steven]

I would be for a shot clock. Some of these guys are an embarrassment.

[chillybilly]

Ready golf will probably never reach the yardage-checking, caddie-counselor Tour but the generations coming up have been taught - or are emulating - all the wrong lessons...still.

 

Lots of practice swings, alignment checks etc.

 

Ready golf is a discipline unto itself meaning it takes practice to develop a skill or a habit just like the golf swing.

 

Full list omitted but estimating a yardage, a shot, a club before arriving at the ball, for example. Some people think they're Cinderella and wait for the horse and coaches (cart) to deposit them 5 ft from their ball. Then and only then will they assess the distance and pull a club out - rather than take 2 or even 3 (?!) clubs with them and walk the interminable 40 yds to their ball while they also mentally decide what shot to hit.

 

Sadly, the 20+ hdcps are the ones nodding along when the starter or their playing partners stress ready golf then slip into a time warp anyway, especially with the first bad shot. It's almost as if their joints lock up with the frustration. And let's not get started on poor players who don't watch their ball land, roll out or assess the general area where it enters the junk - and then think they're going to find it, extricate it and/or play it in a swamp, thick woods, etc. Get another ball out of your 18 pack and let's get on with it.

 

With all the stat-tracking I wish there was one for time spent reading putts correlated with success at making putts. I imagine all the palaver on the greens isn't as productive as they imagine.

Edited April 10, 2023 by chillybilly

[me05501]

I think slow play would be far less of an issue if courses were clearly marked for distances. This includes Tour venues IMO. 

Courses around here have basically given up on providing distance references for players. Sprinkler heads and cart paths aren't always marked and the old 150 yard pole in the middle of the fairway seems to be completely out the window. 

 

I see a lot of guys who rely on their playing partners for distances. Maybe one guy has a rangefinder, I have my Garmin watch and the other two guys are flying blind. You can blame this on the players, sure, but it would be great if courses had clearly visible poles along each fairway at 200/150/100.

 

How often do you see a guy sitting in a cart waiting on someone else to tell them what distance they have left before they even begin getting ready to play a shot? Drives me nuts. 

 

Once you get used to using well-marked references it becomes second nature. If you can see from the cart path that your ball is between the 100 and 150 poles you can probably pull two clubs and have everything you need to play the shot. Once you're at the ball you'll know which one you'll be swinging. Easy. We used to do it all the time before rangefinders were available. 

[vandyfan]

Here's the other thing (and apologies I haven't seen it brought up in here), if you are taking more than your allotted time on numerous shots throughout a round...you are cheating. It is not as blatant as claiming your ball is plugged when it is not or saying there are "fire ants" and you need to move your ball but it is going against the spirit of the rules. Never mind it is boring and annoying to watch, it is actually unfair to other players in the field. By not doing anything about it, you are basically making everyone slow down. 

[Wardonation]

Cantlay is slowest player on tour. I cannot believe he was not put on the clock. Watching him putt on 16 was border line stupid.

[me05501]

21 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

Here's the other thing (and apologies I haven't seen it brought up in here), if you are taking more than your allotted time on numerous shots throughout a round...you are cheating. It is not as blatant as claiming your ball is plugged when it is not or saying there are "fire ants" and you need to move your ball but it is going against the spirit of the rules. Never mind it is boring and annoying to watch, it is actually unfair to other players in the field. By not doing anything about it, you are basically making everyone slow down. 

 

Agreed. It can become an advantage to the few who like a glacial pace and really throw off the rest of the field. 

Also, the opposite tactic is impossible to execute. You can play your own shots as fast as you like but a fast player can't impact the pace of the entire tournament like a slow one can. 

 

I'm back and forth on thinking Cantlay was slowing down on purpose. Knowing he had strokes to make up, and knowing the guys behind him were likely hating the slower pace, I find it hard to believe he wasn't trying to put them on tilt with his B.S. 

[rmc26]

I haven't played golf outside of work in 2 years...because of 5 hour rounds at every course in Denver. 

 

I could not watch Sunday as it was a slog. 

 

Golf is close to dead to me if they don't fix it. 

 

I can go fishing an hour away, fish for 4 hours, and still be home before going to a golf course 20 minutes away. I've chose fishing everytime lately.  

Edited April 10, 2023 by rmc26

[subrew]

Step 1 - Let's see if any of the Golf related magazines and web sites will actually turn this into an issue, and point blank ask the tour officials why they disregard the pace-of-play section of the rulebook.  The rules are there, they rarely (pretty much never) get enforced at the men's level.  I watch a lot of LPGA coverage, and pace-of-play rules do get enforced quite regularly.  A match-play event was decided when penalty was assessed on the 18th hole a couple years ago.

 

Step 2 - Start labelling slow play and pace-of-play violations as they truly are; cheating.  Patrick Cantlay cheats.  The fact he has a pre shot routine that in his mind provides him with an advantage, that also violates the pace-of-play rules, means he cheats.  It shouldn't be treated any differently than other rules infractions.

 

 

[farmer]

Cantley on 16 was awful.  After all the time, he hit a putt that embarrassingly bad.  On 18 he had 4-5 feet, took an eternity and missed.  The only thing that might speed him up would be if every player refused to play practice rounds with him.

[vandyfan]

3 minutes ago, farmer said:

Cantley on 16 was awful.  After all the time, he hit a putt that embarrassingly bad.  On 18 he had 4-5 feet, took an eternity and missed.  The only thing that might speed him up would be if every player refused to play practice rounds with him.

 

Or if a reporter or podcaster (or someone with a sizeable audience basically) went to an event and clocked Cantlay and had an aggregate amount of time he took as well as average and his 5 longest clock times. This person would have to be pretty adept at knowing the rules and when to start the clock and maybe no one would care but I, for one, would be interested. I think enough bad press will get these guys to speed up unless they are complete sociopaths. 

[So_Cal]

So how many seconds should a player get when it’s their turn?

[subrew]

14 minutes ago, So_Cal said:

So how many seconds should a player get when it’s their turn?

 

A player will be allowed a maximum of 40 seconds to complete his/her stroke. NOTE: An additional 10 seconds will be allowed for a) the first to play from the teeing ground on a par 3 hole; b) the first to play a second stroke on a par 4 or par 5 hole; c) the first to play a third stroke on a par 5 hole; or d) the first to play on or around the putting green.

 

If a player exceeds the time limit on one (1) occasion, he/she will then be cautioned that if he/she exceeds the time limit on one more occasion, (total of 2), he/she will automatically incur a penalty of one stroke, under Rule 6-7. If the player exceeds the time limit on one more occasion (total of 3), he/she will incur an additional two-stroke penalty. If a player exceeds the time limit a total of four (4) times, the penalty is disqualification.

 

Other than on the putting green, the timing of a player's stroke will begin when he/she and his/her caddy have had reasonable opportunity to reach his/her ball, it is his/her turn to play, and he/she can play without interference or distraction. Time spent walking backward or forward for determining yardage will count as part of the time taken for that stroke.

 

On the putting green, timing will begin after a player has been allowed a reasonable amount of time to lift, clean, and replace his/her ball. Time spent looking at the line from beyond the hole and/or behind the ball will count as part of the time taken for that stroke.

 

---snip---

 

Cantlay routinely takes twice this allowable time.  We're not nit-picking about a guy taking 48 seconds or 60 seconds, you can clock him taking upwards of two minutes on a regular basis.  

[me05501]

15 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

Or if a reporter or podcaster (or someone with a sizeable audience basically) went to an event and clocked Cantlay and had an aggregate amount of time he took as well as average and his 5 longest clock times. This person would have to be pretty adept at knowing the rules and when to start the clock and maybe no one would care but I, for one, would be interested. I think enough bad press will get these guys to speed up unless they are complete sociopaths. 

 

 

Honestly, it'd be way better if the pressure came from real stakeholders like sponsors or broadcasters. The big PGAT sponsors are being leaned on now to help fund these huge purses. It'd be a good time for them to say "While we're at it, let's talk about how our corporate tent guests are waiting twenty minutes between groups." 

[vandyfan]

I mean, 5 hour rounds in TWOSOMES! That is completely insane. 

[Mp14forlife]

These slow players need to be heckled. It worked for Sergio getting him to exorcise his fidgety hands. Unfortunately that demon jumped to Xanders thumb and Cantlays toes. 

[mikewohlwend]

On 4/7/2023 at 9:46 PM, 3whacker said:

not a chance...could you imagine the uproar if you penalized Jordan Spieth for being methodical as he can get on the greens....lets not use other technology that is used in other sports , because you cant sit still and watch paint dry

 

The announcers made a comment on Saturday (I believe) about him taking 8 minutes to hit a ball from the woods. They were showing the conversation he had with his caddie, cut to another shot, came back to more talking. Then he finally hit.

 

On 4/7/2023 at 10:48 PM, bcjim said:

Slow playing pros are not a problem beyond a few extreme outliers.  

 

Slow playing hacks are a problem. But they're not learning bad habits from pros. They're just ignorant or inconsiderate  or both.

 

This is the truth. People waiting for greens to clear when they can't get there and 5 practice swings are the issue.

 

5 hours ago, chillybilly said:

Ready golf will probably never reach the yardage-checking, caddie-counselor Tour but the generations coming up have been taught - or are emulating - all the wrong lessons...still.

 

Lots of practice swings, alignment checks etc.

 

Ready golf is a discipline unto itself meaning it takes practice to develop a skill or a habit just like the golf swing.

 

Full list omitted but estimating a yardage, a shot, a club before arriving at the ball, for example. Some people think they're Cinderella and wait for the horse and coaches (cart) to deposit them 5 ft from their ball. Then and only then will they assess the distance and pull a club out - rather than take 2 or even 3 (?!) clubs with them and walk the interminable 40 yds to their ball while they also mentally decide what shot to hit.

 

Sadly, the 20+ hdcps are the ones nodding along when the starter or their playing partners stress ready golf then slip into a time warp anyway, especially with the first bad shot. It's almost as if their joints lock up with the frustration. And let's not get started on poor players who don't watch their ball land, roll out or assess the general area where it enters the junk - and then think they're going to find it, extricate it and/or play it in a swamp, thick woods, etc. Get another ball out of your 18 pack and let's get on with it.

 

With all the stat-tracking I wish there was one for time spent reading putts correlated with success at making putts. I imagine all the palaver on the greens isn't as productive as they imagine.

 

I don't know if ready golf would work for televised events. The cameras wouldn't know where to be for any video's

[Fairways_and_Greens]

The only place it's needed is around the greens.

[woodriff]

Baseball has a clock. The fastest sport in the world, F1, has a time clock on the total race. Football has a clock on plays. Why not golf? 
 

Cantly is getting demolished on social media today. 
Reached for comment he said he would be issuing a media release shortly. That was 5 hours ago.

Edited April 10, 2023 by woodriff

[vandyfan]

Deleted. I missed the joke!

Edited April 10, 2023 by vandyfan

[Blaiser]

Can a playing partner/competitor call out another player to be on the clock?

 

I used to watch/play a lot of poker. If someone was taking way too long to make a decision during a hand, you could call them to be "on the clock" and an official would start timing them. Maybe this would be a good way to self regulate? I know some poker tournaments have a clock for every single player on every hand, and while it makes things go way quicker it can also diminish the suspense of really big hands. Sometimes the delay helps with the suspense.

 

To me, the problem with a strict clock is there are times when it is sort of necessary to take more time on a shot. Back 9 at a major, it almost helps to build the suspense.

[jimecherry]

16 minutes ago, Blaiser said:

Can a playing partner/competitor call out another player to be on the clock?

 

I used to watch/play a lot of poker. If someone was taking way too long to make a decision during a hand, you could call them to be "on the clock" and an official would start timing them. Maybe this would be a good way to self regulate? I know some poker tournaments have a clock for every single player on every hand, and while it makes things go way quicker it can also diminish the suspense of really big hands. Sometimes the delay helps with the suspense.

 

To me, the problem with a strict clock is there are times when it is sort of necessary to take more time on a shot. Back 9 at a major, it almost helps to build the suspense.

Right now the group gets put on the clock not 1 player. So you would be hurting yourself cause after several infractions your fined

[Blaiser]

16 minutes ago, jimecherry said:

Right now the group gets put on the clock not 1 player. So you would be hurting yourself cause after several infractions your fined

Sounds like this needs to be changed. Typically it is very obvious which player is slowing things down, so penalizing the group doesn't seem to be the right thing.

[LBB]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:58 AM, MtlJeff said:

 

This is very important---The networks have the time already bought and paid for---They don't care at all about pace of play. If the tournament ended like an hour early would people want Jim Nantz doing stand-up comedy for 60 mins? 

 

As you say, for the viewer it makes little difference, they rarely show a full routine except leaders in the final round.....it's pretty bang - bang before that jumping from one shot to another

 

Other than the majors, networks are paying for X number of hours that does not include the entire round of the contenders.  So for normal tournaments, networks could keep their X hours, keep the same number of advertisements, and actually show more golf in between.

[2over]

On 4/7/2023 at 4:16 PM, subrew said:

Rule 6-7 and 5.6.  But the PGAT never actually enforces it.

This is my point. Enforce the rule! And two words: Patrick Cantlay. His brutally slow play undeniably threw off Hovland and Koepka. One slow player should not dictate the play for the field behind him.

[vandyfan]

6 minutes ago, 2over said:

This is my point. Enforce the rule! And two words: Patrick Cantlay. His brutally slow play undeniably threw off Hovland and Koepka. One slow player should not dictate the play for the field behind him.

 

I blame his Dewalt sponsorship has made him think he is a carpenter now. I think he is muttering to himself "Measure (at least) twice and putt once."