Help with OB wording scenario

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

I haven't quite grasped why you need to keep the ties on the course.

Same.  They don't solve any real drainage problem, just a band aid.  The area is apparently a perpetual mess at certain times of the year (which is why I was suggesting just calling it GUR adjacent too the OB) but the real issue is the course needs to come up with a proper solution to the erosion problem.  Get someone who knows even a little bit about landscaping in there and would be an easy solution but . . . . . might have to spend a little money, make a couple changes, instead of throwing part of a railroad tie on the ground.  Our course is no different.  When the choice is spend a little money or take a little time and effort to do something right vs. a cobbled up "solution" that just keeps a problem going for years, doing it right doesn't happen, lol.  

 

Must be frustrating to see that area year after year, I can relate.

[st1800e]

12 hours ago, antip said:

I'm talking about when a precise assessment must be made. White stakes some distance apart are next to useless for that purpose unless someone has brought the string.

It’s the case on every course that uses white stakes, really doesn’t factor into this particular discussion unless the suggestion is to install white stakes “some distance apart “, which I doubt.  
many many courses have parking lots that are out of bounds with the use of white stakes. String not required.  It’s quite simple to eyeball down the line between stakes.  
 

 

[st1800e]

As Hawkeye referenced , don’t see the point of those ties. Are parking lot users driving over the curbs?  If so put the ties on

the parking lot as tire stops, pin them with rebar. Put white stakes in the inside of the curb. 
Not sure why that area is always a mess/eyesore, seems a shame it isn’t cleaned up , does no one care? Hope that’s not an indication of general maintenance everywhere.  

If it’s a funding/staffing issue have a volunteer morning  where the members pitch in and do the work.  

Edited April 22, 2023 by st1800e

[buckshotgriz]

Good morning - as a career golf course superintendent let me offer how I would proceed - much of which has already been discussed.

 

The immediate solution is a combination of temporary turf paint and enough ob stakes to clearly mark interior edges.   This seems to be a regular point of contention so you'll  unfortunately need enough stakes to make it painfully obvious)...If a ruling is needed - the painted line is 1st assessed (if it clearly exists) and then a string pulled taut between posts will be the 2nd assessment (if visual evidence is unclear   That should be enough to determine if any part of the ball breaks the plane. 

  & It doesn't matter if it's crooked, wavy or if there's a bit of turf or playable areas between the ob marking and the parking lot, the line is the line.

 

As far as the rr ties go - (ignoring the one clearly out of place).- they should be deemed 'integral to the course' - With free relief.

 

Given the slope - it'll likely be two drops and a placement.

 

Until the area can be addressed properly ( when funds, material, labor and TIME are available) - this will be your most useful remedy.

 

Curious if the road sand is managed by the ground staff or an outside contractor.... I would not be very happy having it piled or pushed out of the confines of the parking lot corner.... Not much will grow there without some soil remediation in the future.

 

Good luck. 

 

And when you think you have too many ob stakes - add another - so that one board member who no one likes can't squeak thru the gap.

 

"Don't count that, I was interfered with!'

Edited April 22, 2023 by buckshotgriz

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, buckshotgriz said:

Good morning - as a career golf course superintendent let me offer how I would proceed - much of which has already been discussed.

 

The immediate solution is a combination of temporary turf paint and enough ob stakes to clearly mark interior edges.  If a ruling is needed - the painted line is 1st assessed (if it clearly exists) and then a string pulled taut between posts will be the 2nd assessment (if visual evidence is unclear   That should be enough to determine if any part of the ball breaks the plane. 

 

 

 

Temporary turf paint for an area that needs to be re-marked through the season if not weekly just seems to invite an inevitable problem with the fact it isn't going to last and the edges won't remain consistent?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why use temporary paint to mark an out of bounds area? Why paint the ground when you can use white stakes for OB? I know turf paint is used in many situations, see it quite a bit, but here there is already a known drainage/erosion issue where you want to paint - seems like the stakes should be sufficient and invite less trouble.  Can't imagine the members out enjoying the course over 1000s of rounds would ever even need to get out the string.

[Hawkeye77]

So reading through all this again, and the comment above about the issue with dropping and placement . . .

 

Can't it simply be white stakes for the OB, identify the area adjacent as GUR, which would also allow a designated dropping area?  

[Augster]

3 hours ago, Colin L said:

I haven't quite grasped why you need to keep the ties on the course.

Not to turn into Tufts or anything, but the objective is to keep the ball on the course. A player that has his ball end up lying in grass on the course side of the tie, or on top of the railroad tie, has done that when the definition of OB on that hole is “The Parking Lot is OB on 10”. 
 

By keeping the ties in play, not lying OB and not defining OB, it will make application of the Rules easier across all groups. 
 

Your average rube group, in this situation, is going to walk to the ball that has rolled down the hill and butted up against the railroad tie. They will see that their ball is lying on grass, and has stayed on the course, and that their swing is interfered with by an IO. They will take free relief and keep going. 
 

If the ties define OB, or lie OB, in most cases your average rube group won’t know that they don’t get free relief from the railroad ties in that situation. So they will take incorrect free relief and play on, not knowing they breached the rules. 
 

Same situation, but a player knows the Rules and knows they don’t get free relief from an IO that is OB or one that defines OB, and that player takes 1PS relief and plays on. 
 

Both are in the same competition. The player that knows the Rules is at a disadvantage for knowing the Rules. That isn’t fair to me. 
 

By keeping the railroad ties in bounds and, not making them a part of the “parking lot”, all players should be able to take relief in that situation correctly regardless of their knowledge of the rules. 

[buckshotgriz]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

 

Temporary turf paint for an area that needs to be re-marked through the season if not weekly just seems to invite an inevitable problem with the fact it isn't going to last and the edges won't remain consistent?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but why use temporary paint to mark an out of bounds area? Why paint the ground when you can use white stakes for OB? I know turf paint is used in many situations, see it quite a bit, but here there is already a known drainage/erosion issue where you want to paint - seems like the stakes should be sufficient and invite less trouble.  Can't imagine the members out enjoying the course over 1000s of rounds would ever even need to get out the string.

We use both paint and stakes - especially where the line isn't linear.  

 

All turf paint used (red/yellow/penalty areas, drop areas, ob, GUR, etc) are constantly being remarked - repainted on a constant basis.  The grass grows, the line fades, etc...

 

And yes you don't want the Havercamps uncoiling string checking OB during the Tuesday morning hit n giggle - but until there's a more permanent remedy for this very specific area - there are minimal options.  

 

Written / worded rules still leave gaps in interpretation - which is what the op is addressing... 

 

And yes - repainting penalty areas through the season is tedious and costly - but it necessary.  We try to use enough stakes where appropriate to make simple visual determinations adequate with weekly or biweekly painting.

 

I would recommend enough stakes along the parking lot to make visual rulings and minimize painting - but on occasional both are needed.

 

Sometimes these areas aren't linear.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

3 minutes ago, buckshotgriz said:

We use both paint and stakes - especially where the line isn't linear.  

 

All turf paint used (red/yellow/penalty areas, drop areas, ob, GUR, etc) are constantly being remarked - repainted on a constant basis.  The grass grows, the line fades, etc...

 

And yes you don't want the Havercamps uncoiling string checking OB during the Tuesday morning hit n giggle - but until there's a more permanent remedy for this very specific area - there are minimal options.  

 

Written / worded rules still leave gaps in interpretation - which is what the op is addressing... 

 

And yes - repainting penalty areas through the season is tedious and costly - but it necessary.  We try to use enough stakes where appropriate to make simple visual determinations adequate with weekly or biweekly painting.

 

I would recommend enough stakes along the parking lot to make visual rulings and minimize painting - but on occasional both are needed.

 

Sometimes these areas aren't linear.

 

 

Just talking about this defined parking lot and curb area here, wouldn't the placement of the stakes by definition make it "linear" between the stakes? 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[buckshotgriz]

Personally - I would use the fewest number of stakes possible - placing them clearly interior to the parking lot & move on. Interior to the rr ties as well - 

 

I would ignore the outlier where there might be a ball in the 6" of muck between the stakes and curbing / concrete / asphalt....

[buckshotgriz]

16 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Just talking about this defined parking lot and curb area here, wouldn't the placement of the stakes by definition make it "linear" between the stakes? 

Yes- indeed. 

 

Sometimes it's just that simple. 

 

Sometimes it isn't.  Like the op suggests - is the curb part of the lot?  I would look at whoever asked that question and simply turn and walk away.... Some people are their own worst enemy.

 

Use stakes (& paint if necessary) and reduce the ambiguity of words.

[rogolf]

I'm glad it doesn't take this long in the real world to make a decision on marking the course for a competition that starts tomorrow morning!  😉

[buckshotgriz]

30 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I'm glad it doesn't take this long in the real world to make a decision on marking the course for a competition that starts tomorrow morning!  😉

Yep - it’s amazing how sometimes the simplest things become the most obscure….
 

All it took was a ball to come to rest against a curb & whether that exists as part of a parking lot….hehe

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, antip said:

I appreciate that is not in line with your past-received answer (we've been here before). I have tried your past answer in multiple workshop settings and no-one agreed with it. 

 

I have also been told that the boundary edge is not on the course, and that is why just touching the boundary edge is not on the course.

Here's the most recent written (2023) response on this issue from the USGA:

If my ball come to rest on out of bound line with no part of the ball is touching the fairway, is my ball consider OB?

USGA RESPONSE

The OB edge is essentially a vertical plane that extends above and below the ground based on the course-side edge of that OB line. If any part of the ball breaks that plane onto the course, then it is on the course - regardless of whether the ball is touching the ground at the point it breaks that plane. If no part of the ball is inside the boundary edge then it is OB.

 

Thanks.

 

I just wonder why the approach is different between on course or in a Penalty Area, as that was the point in the response I got from R&A.

 

Then again, I am glad if this is the current interpretation as it fits with the Rule. 

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

Not to turn into Tufts or anything, but the objective is to keep the ball on the course. A player that has his ball end up lying in grass on the course side of the tie, or on top of the railroad tie, has done that when the definition of OB on that hole is “The Parking Lot is OB on 10”. 
 

By keeping the ties in play, not lying OB and not defining OB, it will make application of the Rules easier across all groups. 
 

Your average rube group, in this situation, is going to walk to the ball that has rolled down the hill and butted up against the railroad tie. They will see that their ball is lying on grass, and has stayed on the course, and that their swing is interfered with by an IO. They will take free relief and keep going. 
 

If the ties define OB, or lie OB, in most cases your average rube group won’t know that they don’t get free relief from the railroad ties in that situation. So they will take incorrect free relief and play on, not knowing they breached the rules. 
 

Same situation, but a player knows the Rules and knows they don’t get free relief from an IO that is OB or one that defines OB, and that player takes 1PS relief and plays on. 
 

Both are in the same competition. The player that knows the Rules is at a disadvantage for knowing the Rules. That isn’t fair to me. 
 

By keeping the railroad ties in bounds and, not making them a part of the “parking lot”, all players should be able to take relief in that situation correctly regardless of their knowledge of the rules. 

 

I don't think anyone suggested having the ties define OB (hope not) and since it's never responded to I'll assume at this point there is no chance of the course cleaning up the mess around there that is the root of the problem which is unfortunate, but not all that uncommon.  Now it sounds like they aren't just in place to prevent erosion, which they don't, but to catch the occasional golf ball to save people from going OB, which creates more rules issues not fewer.

 

They get free relief from GUR - I guess you don't have to, but you haven't suggested why that isn't a pretty easy solution for the rube or the rules savvy player (not sure designing with the notion that players following the rules are at a disadvantage in an actual competition should drive the result).  Free drop in the dropping area, move on - if it hadn't rolled OB. The course is causing the issue, no reason to basically guarantee something penal by being over there other than OB. I think you are making application of the rules more difficult.

 

Or just give up and define a larger OB area along there so the crappy area is OB as well and be done with it.  

 

Is there concern of the suggestion solutions being unpopular or that the course isn't going to address the issue?  That would be a no fun situation if it's "politics" - guessing without knowing that's part of it.

 

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, rogolf said:

I'm glad it doesn't take this long in the real world to make a decision on marking the course for a competition that starts tomorrow morning!  😉

 

This is why I always check the markings on any competition course 2-3 weeks before the comp and day before the comp I make sure they are as they are supposed to be.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, Colin L said:

I haven't quite grasped why you need to keep the ties on the course.

 

Could someone explain to me what is a tie in this scenario? I have no clue.

[Hawkeye77]

54 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Could someone explain to me what is a tie in this scenario? I have no clue.

The wood timbers, partial wood timber, are landscaping timbers often called "railroad ties" and many times they are actual railroad ties.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Hawkeye77

[Colin L]

5 hours ago, buckshotgriz said:

As far as the rr ties go - (ignoring the one clearly out of place).- they should be deemed 'integral to the course' - With free relief.

 

Oops.  The point of changing an obstruction into an integral object is to deny free relief to players.  

 https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-I

[antip]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Thanks.

 

I just wonder why the approach is different between on course or in a Penalty Area, as that was the point in the response I got from R&A.

 

Then again, I am glad if this is the current interpretation as it fits with the Rule. 

Yes, the boundary edge is treated slightly differently than the on-course edge issues where "touching" normally means being in both areas with the defined area being the "winner" over the general area.

[antip]

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

The wood timbers, partial wood timber, are landscaping timbers often called "railroad ties" and many times they are actual railroad ties.

Commonly called "sleepers" in this part of the world.

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, antip said:

Commonly called "sleepers" in this part of the world.

 

Starring Brad Pitt, Kevin Bacon and Robert De Niro 😆

[buckshotgriz]

18 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

Oops.  The point of changing an obstruction into an integral object is to deny free relief to players.  

 https://www.randa.org/rog/definitions#definition-I

Yes sir, you are correct!!

 

A pretty embarrassing mistake on my part, not sure what I was thinking there - as there indeed is no free relief.

 

Thanks for the gentle nudge & link to refresh the memory!