Ball believed to be lost in a hazard. Continued play as lateral. Found ball after hole. What to do?

[davep043]

1 minute ago, Schulzmc said:

 

In an effort to learn the rules better, I have a couple questions about this statement. 

 

Let’s assume that he did NOT have KVC that the ball was in the hazard and that he should have played the ball as lost - but not knowing this he proceeded as he did, lateral drop and a one shot penalty. (I agree that he in fact DID proceed properly in “real life.”) He has played in a Wrong Place. I see two possible outcomes:

 

1. This is deemed to NOT be a Serious Breach. In this case he completes the hole without correcting his error and is given the General Penalty (two strokes).

2. This is deemed to be a Serious Breach. Since he did not correct it before playing the next hole he is disqualified.

3. The standard for deciding if this was a Serious Breach is not his knowledge or ignorance of the rules, but rather if he gained a significant advantage by his error.

 

So here are my questions:

 

1. Are my three statements above correct in and of themselves?

2. By playing his ball at the point he did and not going back to the tee he gained a significant advantage, making this a Serious Breach and therefore he should have been DQ’d, correct?

 

I’m basing this on the relevant section of 14.7(b) btw

Without looking back at the Rules themselves (I'm leaving to play in a few minutes), all of that seems correct.  The only thing to add is that if the Player isn't sure whether its a Serious Breach, he's allowed to play another ball under Stroke and Distance from the tee, and report to the Committee for a final decision as to which ball must count.

[Schulzmc]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Without looking back at the Rules themselves (I'm leaving to play in a few minutes), all of that seems correct.  The only thing to add is that if the Player isn't sure whether its a Serious Breach, he's allowed to play another ball under Stroke and Distance from the tee, and report to the Committee for a final decision as to which ball must count.

Great! Thanks. 

 

I suppose this gets interesting if the Local Rule was in effect, in which case he would no longer be playing from a wrong place and it would only be a matter of how many penalty strokes he would take…

[Mr. Bean]

55 minutes ago, Schulzmc said:

Great! Thanks. 

 

I suppose this gets interesting if the Local Rule was in effect, in which case he would no longer be playing from a wrong place and it would only be a matter of how many penalty strokes he would take…

 

Here it indeed gets interesting.

 

If E-5 was in effect and he dropped according to the PA Rule he STILL may have played from a wrong place relative to requirements of E-5. Thus he might first earn 2 PS for invoking E-5 and an additional GP (= 2 PS) for playing from wrong place. No DQ possible, though, I believe.

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[betarhoalphadelta]

Thanks all. 

 

Sounds like he played it reasonably correctly, but I'll educate him a little bit more on what KVC means as that's really the only sticking point here between whether a ball should be deemed lost or KVC to be in the hazard area. 

 

He's a freshman on his HS JV golf team, so I'm trying to help him to know the rules even better than I do (because he's in real competitions where it matters), hence my reliance on you fine folks 😉 

 

[Schulzmc]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

He's a freshman on his HS JV golf team, so I'm trying to help him to know the rules even better than I do (because he's in real competitions where it matters), hence my reliance on you fine folks 😉 

 

I think it is great that you are helping him learn the rules, and especially in this area. I have a good friend who coaches HS golf and according to him this is the exact area where his players get messed up the most. (In a penalty area vs. lost, can you hit a provisional if you think it might be in a penalty area, etc.)

[Schulzmc]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

If E-5 was in effect and he dropped according to the PA Rule he STILL may have played from a wrong place relative to requirements of E-5. Thus he might first earn 2 PS for invoking E-5 and an additional GP (= 2 PS) for playing from wrong place. No DQ possible, though, I believe.

I believe you are right. Even though the potential drop area for E-5 is huge, I can imagine a scenario in which a lateral drop by the hazard could potentially be outside that E-5 area. But that said, it would not be far off and so no significant advantage was received hence only the General Penalty and not a DQ. Thanks for the clarification.

[nsxguy]

22 hours ago, llewol007 said:

So what do you want the player to do now, he made the wrong call but it sounds like the whole Pace of play and not wanting to go back to the tee to retee which would have been the correct move didn’t happen. We know what he should have done, heck probably the dad or whoever was playing with him should have known what to do but it’s obvious they didn’t want to go back to the tee because of POP. 

 

Good grief, what are you talking about NOW ?!?!?!

 

Who said he "made the wrong call or anything about he should have gone back to the tee" ?

 

Seriously dude, what ARE you talking about ?

 

 

18 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Not even sure anymore. We have story telling and I fell asleep. Based on the OP’s accounts, the player made his best judgment call and played it to what he deemed correct and took the penalty and holed out so him finding his original ball is mute. This whole thing of putting ideas out there specially when it is a “rules forum” is good dialogue for those who don’t know. Not a point to where a another member decides he needs to defend what the forum is about. Makes for a horrible experience of future members posting and getting attacked. Keep it light. Not here to ruffle the rule book. 

 

And now, right after your previous post about going back to the tee, you AGREE with the rest of us ? Sans missing information, the player made ALL the right moves and  posted the correct score.

 

Make up my mind, will ya ?

 

As to what the forum's about, nobody's attacking (even) you. You keep going back and forth with foolishness and seemingly changing your mind with each post.

 

As you can see, a poster asked what KVC is, a term most that come in here are familiar with, and was answered very politely.

 

No sarcasm. Nothing. Just an answer.

 

Nobody that frequents this forum, and is far more knowledgeable than your average player/rules newbie, is flat out rude or obnoxious - but when someone like yourself just keeps going back and forth and doesn't won't understand what they're talking about, what do you expect ?

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by nsxguy

[llewol007]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Good grief, what are you talking about NOW ?!?!?!

 

Who said he "made the wrong call or anything about he should have gone back to the tee" ?

 

Seriously dude, what ARE you talking about ?

 

 

 

And now, right after your previous post about going back to the tee, you AGREE with the rest of us ? Sans missing information, the player made ALL the right moves and  posted the correct score.

 

Make up my mind, will ya ?

 

As to what the forum's about, nobody's attacking (even) you. You keep going back and forth with foolishness and seemingly changing your mind with each post.

 

As you can see, a poster asked what KVC is, a term most that come in here are familiar with, and was answered very politely.

 

No sarcasm. Nothing. Just an answer.

 

Nobody that frequents this forum, and is far more knowledgeable than your average player/rules newbie, is flat out rude or obnoxious - but when someone like yourself just keeps going back and forth and doesn't won't understand what they're talking about, what do you expect ?

 

Right Nxs and when someone comes in here and throws ideas from different ways a player can think the process through, you go on a man hunt. The rules are interpreted often times differently depending on what the course seems fit as well. Just throwing ideas out there. Like I said, not here to ruffle the rules but take a breather. The forums are here for discussions aren’t they? Last I thought? I’ve posted on here enough and had many a conversation albeit good ones with you involved. So not sure about what the deal is.

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, llewol007 said:

Right Nxs and when someone comes in here and throws ideas from different ways a player can think the process through, you go on a man hunt. The rules are interpreted often times differently depending on what the course seems fit as well. Just throwing ideas out there. Like I said, not here to ruffle the rules but take a breather. The forums are here for discussions aren’t they? Last I thought? I’ve posted on here enough and had many a conversation albeit good ones with you involved. So not sure about what the deal is.

 

*I* go on a manhunt ? Manhunt ? Hyperbole pure and simple.

 

I am addressing YOUR posts. How is that a manhunt ?

 

*I* am here to learn. And that happens far more often than I (try to) offer any answers. When I do learn, I am appreciative.

 

You otoh, have basically twisted everything up, as in your preceding post. Earlier you implied you'd have hit a provisional. And immediately after it was explained to you why a provisional was NOT allowed, you said "pretty sure I would have made the correct call". How ? You said you'd hit a provisional.

 

So someone (me) who decides to discuss your posts, is "on a manhunt" ? This shows the others are smarter than I, because they've (mostly) just given a single answer or made a single "observation" (to/about) you and then just ignored you since.

 

*I* otoh would rather YOU (finally) get it right.

 

So, *I* am discussing your posts with you instead of just ignoring you - as I probably should. Maybe I should take THIS lesson from the boyz to heart ? 🙃

 

You, just before, said, "he made the wrong call but it sounds like the whole Pace of play and not wanting to go back to the tee to retee which would have been the correct move didn’t happen"

 

*I* asked you what you were talking about. It never HAD anything to do with pace of play. And once again, you're back to the provisional, which was NOT allowed.

 

YOUR answer ? None. Discussions work well only when both parties are responsive.

 

I've seen many of your posts and I recall thinking you're generally pretty balanced. So what happened here ? <---feel free to ignore this question (about your "wrong call") and let the thread die as my actual question was answered a few posts in.

 

Yes, the forums ARE here for discussion, but you're just making up things that were not said. As above.

 

You want to continue this particular discussion ? By all means, let's go, but don't make stuff up.

 

You want to ask other questions ? Find a thread on the subject and maybe your question will have already have been answered. Or start your own thread, and ask away.

 

Most everyone/anyone will be glad to help you out.

 

Later 👍

 

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:26 AM, hammersia said:

If he found it on the way back, it was on the other side of the creek, ie a big pull, therefore it easily passes the KVC test. 

 

Columbo me. 

 

After talking to him about it, it was on the same side of the creek but shorter than where he was looking. I told him two things. One that when looking for a ball, it's always best to start short of where you think it is located. Two, that a mistake on where to look for the ball might be an inexperience thing at this point in his golf career, as he plays more he'll get a better sense of where the ball is based on visual cues from the tee. 

 

On 4/24/2023 at 6:42 PM, davep043 said:

Once he substituted a ball with the intent for it to be in play (when he dropped it), the original ball becomes a Wrong Ball.  If he did not have KVC, he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place, potentially a Serious Breach, which must be corrected before he makes a stroke on the next hole.  The playing partners agreement has nothing to do with it, he has to get it correct, even if they disagree.  That's different in match play, if you and your Opponent agree to something, that agreement stands, as long as you're not intentionally ignoring a rule.  From all of the descriptions, he did play it correctly.

 

That brings up another question. As stated above, he looked for his ball farther along the creek than it was actually found. Obviously he did this under his best estimate of where the crossing point must have been, which was wrong. But this means that he then dropped his ball farther along the creek than it actually would have crossed, had it crossed, and this drop point was therefore closer to the hole. 

 

This was obviously not a competition. There were no spectators or rules officials to see where the crossing point [or lack thereof] occurred. Assessing a crossing point from the tee maybe 150 yards away may not always be an exact science. 

 

I looked at this: https://fsga.org/sections/content/Wrong-Ball-vs.-Wrong-Place/959

 

While the drop point was closer to the hole, I'm not sure it was closer in such a way that it would be deemed a "significant advantage", per the definition of serious breach. While it would be slightly closer to the hole, we're talking about the difference in a pitch shot, not 50 yards on a full swing being 4 or more clubs shorter kind of thing. The difficulty of the stroke was unchanged (both in similar rough), and it may have actually brought the left side bunker into play which may have needed to be cleared. So I don't think it was a serious breach. 

 

But would finding the ball after completing the hole in a different area than where he made his drop mean that he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place and should have taken an additional two stroke general penalty after the hole? Or does a player's best estimate of crossing point into a hazard mean that it's not "wrong place" as long he has KVC the ball is in the hazard? 

 

 

[rogolf]

51 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

After talking to him about it, it was on the same side of the creek but shorter than where he was looking. I told him two things. One that when looking for a ball, it's always best to start short of where you think it is located. Two, that a mistake on where to look for the ball might be an inexperience thing at this point in his golf career, as he plays more he'll get a better sense of where the ball is based on visual cues from the tee. 

 

 

That brings up another question. As stated above, he looked for his ball farther along the creek than it was actually found. Obviously he did this under his best estimate of where the crossing point must have been, which was wrong. But this means that he then dropped his ball farther along the creek than it actually would have crossed, had it crossed, and this drop point was therefore closer to the hole. 

 

This was obviously not a competition. There were no spectators or rules officials to see where the crossing point [or lack thereof] occurred. Assessing a crossing point from the tee maybe 150 yards away may not always be an exact science. 

 

I looked at this: https://fsga.org/sections/content/Wrong-Ball-vs.-Wrong-Place/959

 

While the drop point was closer to the hole, I'm not sure it was closer in such a way that it would be deemed a "significant advantage", per the definition of serious breach. While it would be slightly closer to the hole, we're talking about the difference in a pitch shot, not 50 yards on a full swing being 4 or more clubs shorter kind of thing. The difficulty of the stroke was unchanged (both in similar rough), and it may have actually brought the left side bunker into play which may have needed to be cleared. So I don't think it was a serious breach. 

 

But would finding the ball after completing the hole in a different area than where he made his drop mean that he dropped the ball in a Wrong Place and should have taken an additional two stroke general penalty after the hole? Or does a player's best estimate of crossing point into a hazard mean that it's not "wrong place" as long he has KVC the ball is in the hazard? 

 

 

Here is a Rules Clarification that may be of assistance:

17.1d(3)/2 – Player Drops Ball Based on Estimate of Where the Ball Last Crossed Edge of Penalty Area That Turns Out to Be the Wrong Point

If the point where a ball last crossed the edge of a penalty area is not known, a player must use their reasonable judgment to determine the reference point.

Under Rule 1.3b(2), the player’s reasonable judgment will be accepted even if that reference point turns out to be wrong. However, there are situations when, before the player has made a stroke, it becomes known that the reference point is wrong and this mistake must be corrected.

For example, in stroke play, it is virtually certain that a player’s ball is in a red penalty area. The player, having consulted with the other players in the group, estimates where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area. The player takes lateral relief and drops a ball in the relief area based on that reference point.

But before making a stroke at the dropped ball, one of the players in the group finds the player’s original ball in the penalty area in a position indicating that the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area approximately 20 yards closer to the hole than the reference point the player had estimated.

Because this information became known before the player made a stroke at the dropped ball, the player must correct the error under Rule 14.5 (Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball). In doing so, the player must proceed under Rule 17.1  or Rule 17.2a with respect to the correct reference point and may use any relief option under the relevant Rule (see Rule 14.5b(2)).

[betarhoalphadelta]

Got it. So if it's a reasonable judgment, but later proven wrong, it's not a problem. 

 

If it's determined wrong BEFORE the next stroke, then it must be corrected before the stroke is played (which makes perfect sense). 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Got it. So if it's a reasonable judgment, but later proven wrong, it's not a problem. 

 

If it's determined wrong BEFORE the next stroke, then it must be corrected before the stroke is played (which makes perfect sense). 

The other part of this concerns the Known or Virtually Certain bit.  If he has KVC the ball is in a Penalty Area, he can take PA relief, using reasonable judgement to determine the entry spot.  If he makes a stroke from that spot, and later learns that the spot was wrong, he's in the clear.  If he learns before making a stroke that he's dropped in he wrong spot, he's required to correct that mistake.  This is all in the Clarification that @rogolf quoted for you. 

However, if he doesn't have KVC, the Original Ball is lost, and he must play from the spot of the previous shot under Stroke and Distance.  If he mistakenly drops where the ball entered the PA, he's in a Wrong Place, probably much closer to the hole than the spot of the previous stroke.  THAT is there the Serious Breach could come in, if he makes a Stroke at that ball.  Even in this case, he's allowed to correct that mistake before he makes a stroke at the Substituted ball, he could lift that ball and return to the tee, with only the single Penalty Stroke from the Stroke and Distance (Lost Ball).

[betarhoalphadelta]

41 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The other part of this concerns the Known or Virtually Certain bit.  If he has KVC the ball is in a Penalty Area, he can take PA relief, using reasonable judgement to determine the entry spot.  If he makes a stroke from that spot, and later learns that the spot was wrong, he's in the clear.  If he learns before making a stroke that he's dropped in he wrong spot, he's required to correct that mistake.  This is all in the Clarification that @rogolf quoted for you. 

However, if he doesn't have KVC, the Original Ball is lost, and he must play from the spot of the previous shot under Stroke and Distance.  If he mistakenly drops where the ball entered the PA, he's in a Wrong Place, probably much closer to the hole than the spot of the previous stroke.  THAT is there the Serious Breach could come in, if he makes a Stroke at that ball.  Even in this case, he's allowed to correct that mistake before he makes a stroke at the Substituted ball, he could lift that ball and return to the tee, with only the single Penalty Stroke from the Stroke and Distance (Lost Ball).

 

Yeah, and to an extent I think we're working with the assumption he has KVC. 

 

Based on his description after the fact that the ball was short of his search area, I think he could have been more diligent looking for it, and a little bit smarter in his search method, but he's 15 and has only been playing golf a little while. So that's something that will come with experience. As mentioned, I've already explained KVC to him and told him that in a similar case, he should be searching up along the creek well short of where he actually thinks it went in. Especially since finding his ball would have saved him a penalty stroke; there's benefit to diligence. 

 

So it's definitely been a learning experience for him. I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't an "extra two shot penalty" on top of the stroke because of where he dropped. 

[davep043]

15 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

he's 15 and has only been playing golf a little while

I think its great that you're encouraging him to learn the Rules as he also learns to play the game.  The USGA has some really good learning resources at https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/education.html.  The Rules 101 is free, and offers modules on the most common rules.  The Rules of Golf Explained section has 12 relatively short videos covering much of the same ground.  They're all pretty well done, a good way to get started in golf Rules.