AI - Caddie and the rules?

[2bGood]

I am sure someone is working on it, but the technology is ready to create an extremely good (too good?) AI Caddie. You would need to combine a few elements, but mix in an AI chat bot, voice command, speakers, gps an e-cart and few sensors and you could replicate everything you get from a caddie. You could even sync up a heart monitor so the AI knows when you might need some help calming down. It would not take long for the AI to learn to club you and gather other data about you and of course it could access course info, weather, the contours of greens etc.

 

At any rate given this will come at some point, how do you think the RoG should handle it? 

[Mr. Bean]

It should be forbidden, that's how.

[2bGood]

45 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

It should be forbidden, that's how.

Well that was fun conversation Mr. Bean 😁. What if there were restrictions put on them so they could not exceed the abilities of a human caddie?

Edited April 29, 2023 by 2bGood

[Colin L]

 It would have to be embodied in a human looking robot which could walk the course toting a ginormous bag and come with a range of clothes including a white boiler suit for the Masters.  There could be a range of characteristics from the taciturn grumpiness of the St Andrews caddie of folklore to relentless cheerfulness and optimism and optional features like the ability to whistle a merry tune and hand out bananas.  Above all, it should have such a facility to understand and apply the Rules that forums such as this would be redundant.   Now that would be a shame.   

[antip]

If it has any genuine intelligence, it won't allow itself to be used on the golf course, it will be too busy discussing rules issues on WRX. 😁

[ChipStrokes]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

It should be forbidden, that's how.

why?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

why?

 

A caddie is a person, that is not a person. 

[ChipStrokes]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

A caddie is a person, that is not a person. 

traditionally, yes.  but nothing lasts forever.

 

caddies are people employed in jobs that don’t actually need a human being to be done successfully. 

 

a caddie carries clubs, gives distances, reads putts, and cleans a golf ball. 

 

all of those things, and more, can be done without having to pay a person to do them.  

 

the caddie will go the way of the cashier, receptionist, and travel agent.  welcome to the future!

Edited April 29, 2023 by ChipStrokes

[QEight]

We can already have some of those with rangefinder/phone app. And e.g. club suggestions are already forbidden 

[davep043]

16 hours ago, 2bGood said:

I am sure someone is working on it, but the technology is ready to create an extremely good (too good?) AI Caddie. You would need to combine a few elements, but mix in an AI chat bot, voice command, speakers, gps an e-cart and few sensors and you could replicate everything you get from a caddie. You could even sync up a heart monitor so the AI knows when you might need some help calming down. It would not take long for the AI to learn to club you and gather other data about you and of course it could access course info, weather, the contours of greens etc.

 

At any rate given this will come at some point, how do you think the RoG should handle it? 

Use of "equipment" in most of these ways is already against the RoG, and I don't see that changing, nor do I think it should change.    

[2bGood]

4 hours ago, davep043 said:

Use of "equipment" in most of these ways is already against the RoG, and I don't see that changing, nor do I think it should change.    

 

Eventually in most situations the choice will be robotic-caddie or no-caddie. It is unrealistic that the job will be held by humans indefinitely.

 

 

[antip]

19 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

A caddie is a person, that is not a person. 

Precisely. And the caddie role is only supported by tradition/history. There are plenty of electronic assistance tools available now that are technology based and anything that is other than a simple distance information or public weather information, especially anything that calculates live, is banned - first use general penalty, second use DQ. Everything that is AI fits into this banned camp. (And so it should.)

[davep043]

12 hours ago, 2bGood said:

 

Eventually in most situations the choice will be robotic-caddie or no-caddie. It is unrealistic that the job will be held by humans indefinitely.

Sure, and the "caddie" will be defined as Equipment, and the limitations on the allowed uses of Equipment will still apply.  You can get club selections, slope-adjusted distances, real-time data on your heart rate and blood pressure now on your Equipment, but you are not allowed to access those features during your Round.

And I wrote this before I read @antip's post immediately above this.

[ChipStrokes]

6 hours ago, antip said:

Precisely. And the caddie role is only supported by tradition/history. There are plenty of electronic assistance tools available now that are technology based and anything that is other than a simple distance information or public weather information, especially anything that calculates live, is banned - first use general penalty, second use DQ. Everything that is AI fits into this banned camp. (And so it should.)

why can a person supply you with all of that information, but an app can’t?

[Naptime]

It would level the playing field for a typical golfer who doesn't have access to caddies or can't afford to hire one.  I think caddies have a significant role for the pros.  I wonder what they would shoot without a caddie.  Especially help with reading greens.  

[davep043]

Just now, Naptime said:

 I wonder what they would shoot without a caddie.  Especially help with reading greens.  

I think they'd be fine, and might play a bit faster if they didn't need to hold a Committee meeting before each and every decision.

[Mr. Bean]

30 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

why can a person supply you with all of that information, but an app can’t?

 

Why do you think a person can give you that information as it is against the Rules?

 

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Rule 4.3.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[ChipStrokes]

6 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why do you think a person can give you that information as it is against the Rules?

 

I suggest you familiarize yourself with Rule 4.3.

 

 

antip’s post said “anything outside of…” and then “everything ai fits into this banned camp”

 

so your caddy can say “hey the wind switched directions and you’re breathing really heavily right now, why don’t you sit down”

 

but you can’t get that same information from technology?

[davep043]

2 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

but you can’t get that same information from technology?

You can.  You're not allowed to.  Whether you like it or not, the Rules require lines to be drawn.  This is a specific line that has been drawn between advice from a human Caddie, and information obtained from Equipment.  

[ChipStrokes]

7 minutes ago, davep043 said:

You can.  You're not allowed to.  Whether you like it or not, the Rules require lines to be drawn.  This is a specific line that has been drawn between advice from a human Caddie, and information obtained from Equipment.  

understood completely. 

 

however this is a hypothetical conversation with an eye towards the future. 

 

@2bGood is addressing the emerging ubiquity of ai, which eventually will be something the rules of golf will have to address. 

 

for one, i hope it’s allowed. id rather have an ai enabled electric cart follow me around on the course than an 18 year old kid. 

[caniac6]

At first, I was going to say it’s ok for fun rounds, or resorts, but then I remember sitting at the rail at the Duece, and watching all the caddies walk by. This could eliminate a lot of jobs, and take the tradition and human element out of the game.

[Soloman1]

Sounds like a good movie premise.

 

Golf pro (who went to a couple of schools in Georgia maybe) hires the kid from War Games to hack the AI caddie of other players.

 

Wrong yardages, wrong breaks for putts, wrong wind, wrong club, AI caddies secretly bend putters slightly, breaks into a free form rap during a backswing.

[davep043]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:26 PM, 2bGood said:

At any rate given this will come at some point, how do you think the RoG should handle it? 

 

22 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

understood completely. 

 

however this is a hypothetical conversation with an eye towards the future. 

 

@2bGood is addressing the emerging ubiquity of ai, which eventually will be something the rules of golf will have to address. 

 

for one, i hope it’s allowed. id rather have an ai enabled electric cart follow me around on the course than an 18 year old kid. 

The Rules already address this possibility.  And I believe the limits in the use of Equipment should continue pretty much as they are right now. 

[antip]

We need to keep this discussion in context. The ever-advancing AI is being applied constantly to all aspects of the game. The equipment, playing techniques, prepping the players physically, shot data, etc, etc. Nothing is going to stop that juggernaut. 

But it just can't operate live once the round has started until it has completed - in that specific window, it is just down to the player, and the traditional role that the caddie has played (if you have one) to do the job. 

[ChipStrokes]

1 minute ago, davep043 said:

 

The Rules already address this possibility.  And I believe the limits in the use of Equipment should continue pretty much as they are right now. 

the capabilities of ai (basically everything a human can do, minus the heartbeat) haven’t been considered by the rules of golf, unless you want to lump ai in with other forms of technology. and i see your point in doing that. 

 

but we’re not talking about an app that pulls weather data from a website. we’re talking about the capability to wholesale replace people where people have become expensive and inefficient. there are companies running entire divisions solely using ai. 

 

in golf, i see it no differently than the rangefinder

 

there was nothing in the rules about rangefinder. then they were invented, became very popular, and now there are rules about rangefinders. 

 

im not trying to be contrary, and i see your point that the rules address certain things that ai presents. but the rules change. 

 

 

[ChipStrokes]

4 minutes ago, antip said:

it is just down to the player, and the traditional role that the caddie has played

but if machines can replace caddies - and they can - which allows courses to offer caddies to more golfers for less money, why does the caddie need to be a person?  just because of tradition? 

 

traditionally, golfers walked their rounds. now there are carts.

 

it’s not all that different. 

[2bGood]

37 minutes ago, ChipStrokes said:

understood completely. 

 

however this is a hypothetical conversation with an eye towards the future. 

 

@2bGood is addressing the emerging ubiquity of ai, which eventually will be something the rules of golf will have to address. 

 

for one, i hope it’s allowed. id rather have an ai enabled electric cart follow me around on the course than an 18 year old kid. 

Thanks for nailing the point of this thread. It is about broad ideas, what we will see in the future and not the current rules. 

 

I am traditionalist when it comes to the game. Caddies have been part of the game since its origins. We have largely lost them. AI represents an opportunity to bring the game closer to its roots rather than take it further away.....

[nsxguy]

47 minutes ago, caniac6 said:

At first, I was going to say it’s ok for fun rounds, or resorts, but then I remember sitting at the rail at the Duece, and watching all the caddies walk by. This could eliminate a lot of jobs, and take the tradition and human element out of the game.

 

Eliminate a lot of jobs ?

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a caddie at a daily fee golf course.

 

Maybe there are still some at country clubs ?

 

No matter, outside the professional tours and some fairly rare instances elsewhere, in the grand scope of things, I have to imagine caddies have moved on to other professions long ago.

[caniac6]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Eliminate a lot of jobs ?

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a caddie at a daily fee golf course.

 

Maybe there are still some at country clubs ?

 

No matter, outside the professional tours and some fairly rare instances elsewhere, in the grand scope of things, I have to imagine caddies have moved on to other professions long ago.

There were a fair amount of caddies at Pinehurst, and I imagine most high end resorts have a fair number. 

Edited April 30, 2023 by caniac6

[Mr. Bean]

I fail to understand the need of a caddie for an everyday golfer. If you cannot asnwer your own questions yourself and make a stroke it is advisable to start another hobby.

 

Afa professionals are concerned, they just have to pay the money of carry their clubs themselves, just like the rest of us mortals do.

 

Although AI is gaining territory it does not mean it has to be present everywhere.