Across the line at the top from overactive wrists/swivel, not flying elbow...

[KMeloney]

I'm convinced (from mirror work and playing partner feedback) that my crossing-the-line at the top of my swing, especially with longer clubs, is not due to a flying right elbow kicking the club across, but rather from rotating my right wrist counter-clockwise combined with arm run-off by the top of my swing. Even after feeling like I get my right wrist into the waiter-holding-a-tray position, I can swivel that wrist/forearm and get the club pointing across the line.

 

I'm sure that a too-long backswing promotes this result. And, we all know that what I feel like I'm doing in the course of an actual swing isn't always what I'm actually doing -- so even though I might feel like I get that right wrist bent back on itself at the top of the swing, I might fall short, and might be getting the club too steep also, which add to the issue.

 

I think I need an intent that will both shorten up my backswing and keep the club from crossing the line. Has anyone had any luck with maybe feeling as though they point the club directly behind them (perpendicular to the target) at the top of the swing, feeling like they look like Rahm or Berger at the top of the swing? If so, am I going to achieve that feel by really externally-rotating my right shoulder at the top, or by feeling it in my wrist/forearm (or both)? I'm thinking that if I can feel like I limit the club travel at the top by feeling that I point my right thumb behind me (instead of at my ear) at the top, then I could be in a much better top-of-backswing position.

 

Thoughts? Thanks.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

I have tried the laid off feeling but to me it is a bandaid and doesn't tackle the root cause. Pause work (stopping at the top of the backswing) is the most effective for me. The smart ball is a good tool for maintaining connection between the arm swing and shoulder turn. Berger is very much an outlier, what Rahm does is a bit different and more what you should feel in transition. 

[GoGoErky]

Alignment rind under the trail arm and swing til lead arm hits the alignment rod

 

proper pressure shifts and hips working in transition before upper body completes the turn will prevent overswinging 

 

 

[MPStrat]

This is a tricky one and super common in single digit index amateur golf. Disconnected overswing with the arms, across the line, EE in the downswing.
 

I’m not a fan of trying to point the club in a certain direction at the top to fix across the line. The one exception might be if the swing is short and across the line, but if the arm swing is long, across the line is normal. Many things affect the pitch of the shaft at p4 including intended shot shape. You might be surprised what changes the shaft pitch at the top of the swing without even trying to do it. I wouldn’t worry about that in isolation. 
 

A few things might help what you’re trying to accomplish. Faster overall tempo will match a shorter arm swing. The second thing, and this is the hard part, is to make sure the body movements and arm structure are complimenting each other into one flowing motion. It will be a never ending battle trying to piece together lever movement on its own. Unathletic and often not super repeatable. 
 

 

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

This is a tricky one and super common in single digit index amateur golf. Disconnected overswing with the arms, across the line, EE in the downswing.
 

I’m not a fan of trying to point the club in a certain direction at the top to fix across the line. The one exception might be if the swing is short and across the line, but if the arm swing is long, across the line is normal. Many things affect the pitch of the shaft at p4 including intended shot shape. You might be surprised what changes the shaft pitch at the top of the swing without even trying to do it. I wouldn’t worry about that in isolation. 
 

A few things might help what you’re trying to accomplish. Faster overall tempo will match a shorter arm swing. The second thing, and this is the hard part, is to make sure the body movements and arm structure are complimenting each other into one flowing motion. It will be a never ending battle trying to piece together lever movement on its own. Unathletic and often not super repeatable. 
 

 

 

This is a really thoughtful response. Thank you.

 

I'm glad you mentioned the intended shot shape, because my miss (and something I battle more often than not when my swing is "off") is a hook. I could never hit an intentional fade with my driver as I tend to get the club coming from too inside and up, leading to snap hooks or big blocks if I drop my right shoulder. When I get too long with my swing, it's easy for me to lose a sense for where it is, to spin my lower body out before the club can get down into a good place, and that all contributes to the bad path, getting stuck on my back foot, etc.

 

Oh -- and when I don't think about it, my hips can often turn back at the same rate as my shoulders, and that throws everything out of whack (including really letting the arms run back too long).

 

I really like the idea of increasing my tempo going back. If I can greatly reduce the time I have to think about placing the club in a good spot in the backswing, I'll probably be much better off.

 

I'd also like to hear more about what can affect the pitch of the shaft like you mentioned.

[Ross_Albatross]

3 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I'm convinced (from mirror work and playing partner feedback) that my crossing-the-line at the top of my swing, especially with longer clubs, is not due to a flying right elbow kicking the club across, but rather from rotating my right wrist counter-clockwise combined with arm run-off by the top of my swing. Even after feeling like I get my right wrist into the waiter-holding-a-tray position, I can swivel that wrist/forearm and get the club pointing across the line.

 

I'm sure that a too-long backswing promotes this result. And, we all know that what I feel like I'm doing in the course of an actual swing isn't always what I'm actually doing -- so even though I might feel like I get that right wrist bent back on itself at the top of the swing, I might fall short, and might be getting the club too steep also, which add to the issue.

 

I think I need an intent that will both shorten up my backswing and keep the club from crossing the line. Has anyone had any luck with maybe feeling as though they point the club directly behind them (perpendicular to the target) at the top of the swing, feeling like they look like Rahm or Berger at the top of the swing? If so, am I going to achieve that feel by really externally-rotating my right shoulder at the top, or by feeling it in my wrist/forearm (or both)? I'm thinking that if I can feel like I limit the club travel at the top by feeling that I point my right thumb behind me (instead of at my ear) at the top, then I could be in a much better top-of-backswing position.

 

Thoughts? Thanks.

Though without video, but this happens to me when the focus is solely on not having an inside takeaway 'steering to the left' where the trail wrist sets horizontally (extension) and not vertically (radial) and that position : extension without any radial combined with forerarm pronation at the top can bring the club across the line. Try having a 'vertical than horizontal' set wrist right off the bat (look at Porzak students), seems weird but the radial aspect blocks your wrist/forearm combo from over extension/pronation. Food for thought

[johnrobison]

How well do you do with braking drills? Can you swing hard and brake at P8? If not, do braking drills until you can and then check your P4 again. It's been my experience that players who don't recruit their entire body in the swing - where virtually all the power is coming from the arms - will be have runoff in a full swing, whether arms or wrists, no matter how hard they try.

 

If you're already good with braking drills and your pivot's not the problem, post a swing. It's really hard for anyone to suggest a fix otherwise.

[KMeloney]

11 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

How well do you do with braking drills? Can you swing hard and brake at P8? If not, do braking drills until you can and then check your P4 again. It's been my experience that players who don't recruit their entire body in the swing - where virtually all the power is coming from the arms - will be have runoff in a full swing, whether arms or wrists, no matter how hard they try.

 

If you're already good with braking drills and your pivot's not the problem, post a swing. It's really hard for anyone to suggest a fix otherwise.

 

Braking drills = split-grip thrusts down to club parallel?

[pappaf2]

What do you mean when you say rotate the right hand counter clockwise? Are you saying you are losing extension in the right wrist at the top of the swing (as if the waiter is tipping the tray off their hand)?

 

 

[KMeloney]

3 minutes ago, pappaf2 said:

What do you mean when you say rotate the right hand counter clockwise? Are you saying you are losing extension in the right wrist at the top of the swing (as if the waiter is tipping the tray off their hand)?

 

 

 

No. I'm swiveling my hand counter-clockwise like I'm unscrewing a light bulb from a ceiling socket. (But, as I suggested earlier, I may not be "holding the tray" level to begin with.)

[Zitlow]

You can apply more force with less effort from here provided you pivot correctly. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[fjk]

I’ve had this issue for a long time. Different swing changes would eventually result in the wrists loading across the line. 
 

I don’t think you can change that position in isolation. You have to change the before and after and your concept of loading and delivering the club. 
 

The club is going where your swing concept thinks it needs to go to get to the delivery you are trying to execute. Including where and how you are applying force to the grip and club. 

[johnrobison]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

Braking drills = split-grip thrusts down to club parallel?

Braking drills are taking a hard swing but stopping fast - stopping the club at last parallel. No follow through - hands stop at waist high.

If you can't swing hard and hit the brakes at last parallel, you're using too much arms, not enough pivot. And, in my experience, guys who do that have more tendency for runoff at the top of the backswing because they know subconsciously that they wont' have the pivot to supply power so need arm speed in the downswing. 

 

But again, this is pure speculation without seeing your swing. Though, if you can't do the braking drill, work on pivot until you can and see if it cleans up your arms/wrists at the top.

[KMeloney]

15 hours ago, johnrobison said:

Braking drills are taking a hard swing but stopping fast - stopping the club at last parallel. No follow through - hands stop at waist high.

If you can't swing hard and hit the brakes at last parallel, you're using too much arms, not enough pivot. And, in my experience, guys who do that have more tendency for runoff at the top of the backswing because they know subconsciously that they wont' have the pivot to supply power so need arm speed in the downswing. 

 

But again, this is pure speculation without seeing your swing. Though, if you can't do the braking drill, work on pivot until you can and see if it cleans up your arms/wrists at the top.

 

Yeah, I'd like to get a swing vid soon, but these comments are relevant and helpful even though I don't have a video. I'm interested in learning what the various factors are that lead to this position, as well as what can be done to combat it. The discussion in general is very helpful to me.

 

Incidentally, I've struggled in the past with being able to make swings and stop my arms as in the the video you posted. So, that video is definitely relevant as well.

 

[KMeloney]

16 hours ago, Zitlow said:

You can apply more force with less effort from here provided you pivot correctly. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...More force than what (or from where)?

[Zitlow]

You can hit the ball much harder by using your whole body to apply force to the club. 

[MK7Golf21]

I know the move you are talking about with that right wrist counterclockwise wise that brings it across the line. Typically feeling really wide with the right arm at the top helps but it will feel weird.

[KMeloney]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

You can hit the ball much harder by using your whole body to apply force to the club. 

 

Ok, but he's across-the-line in that photo (assuming his target is at 9:00). Are you making the case that if you can turn your shoulders more than 90° and get the club across the line, that's a good thing?

[pappaf2]

21 hours ago, KMeloney said:

 

No. I'm swiveling my hand counter-clockwise like I'm unscrewing a light bulb from a ceiling socket. (But, as I suggested earlier, I may not be "holding the tray" level to begin with.)

Gotcha. I know some people describe the wrist movement from the top as turning a doorknob behind you, which would be screwing in a lightbulb (opposite of what you are doing).

 
not sure how much you look at your swing on video but how does your clubface look from dtl at shaft parallel? How does your clubface and left wrist look at the top of the swing? 
 

when trying to rein in my overswing I found it helpful to get the left wrist into a flater position as soon as I started the takeaway. So the clubface angle matches the spine angle at P3 and a flat to slightly bowed left wrist at the top. 

 

you also mentioned you’d hip turn in another post. I had to work on letting my shoulder turn cause my hip turn, not the other way around. 
 

these things helped me but your mileage may vary 

[Zitlow]

It's done with the right forearm pronating as the body winds and supinating as the body unwinds. 

[CAT GOLFER]

Two thumbs back, YouTube it. It helped me with the same issue, results may vary.

Edited May 5, 2023 by CAT GOLFER

[sdonoghue]

I rarely if ever post here but read quite a few.  I've spent 7 years trying to fix the exact same thing while playing at between a 2-5 hdcp.  I've also seen multiple pros locally who all said it was basically the "cancer" in my swing.  Takeaway was fine, some arm overrun and definite over bending of the right elbow, but the swivel was not obvious.  One pro said it was almost imperceptible how I cause the ATL.  He suggested a late increase in grip pressure in my right hand preparing to pull down.  The unfortunate result was a steep downswing with EE and tons of side bend to shallow it.  With these pros, I tried the Hangar, ProSendr, rotate right forearm (which actually works but impossible for me to play that way), etc.  Finally, and just recently, I decided to figure out a way to at least swivel it back if I could, so it wasn't so steep.  I'm now 53 and my back hurts from years of this affliction.  Over the past month, I've been able to correct it and it was one video that was different from every other ATL solution that did it- Adam Porzak video with a guy around my age.  The feeling on the course is awesome because all I focus on is the butt of the club and having it pointed slightly in front from transition all the way to impact.  Also, I'll use the Right Angle device set at 70-80 degrees of elbow bend to control that while doing this drill.  On and off with the RIght Angle every 5-10 swings.  Because I've gotten so much from the people on this site, I had to write this post.  Good luck!