Wedge for 50y on bone dry ground?

[Brokensticks]

Hello. 
 

Summer is around the corner and it has not rained in a few weeks. Its really dry and the grass has seen better days. 
 

You have 50y to the green and want to land it soft, preferably a higher type of shot. 
 

What wedge, grind and bounce?

 

I tried to do a few difference shots but the bounce (12 I think) made the club just bounce of the ground and topping the ball. Sure I can lean the shaft more and take off some lofts.

 

Or, is this a case of ”you cant hit that shot” so doing a long low chip with plenty of rollout is the only option?

[WristySwing]

Low, low bounce.  Vokey T grind comes to mind (4*).  Only you can answer the last question.  To me, that is probably the better option but yeah, you do you.

[LKNgolf]

That is a shot with a very low margin for error.  I’d say as low a bounce as you can find or…..if the front of the green is open just chip it up there with less loft.  It doesn’t look as cool but sometimes it takes the big number out of play in those conditions

[golfinbrad]

Like already said low bounce.  I would use my Cobra 58* wide low with 6* bounce.  Easier to hit it high off a harder lie.  With the wedge you have, you almost need to take it in lower to prevent the bounce from taking over.  Of course, when the rain comes and fairways get really soft, you will want that bounce.  That is the advantage the pros have.  They can change wedge bounce/grind each week based on the conditions. 

[hagimihale]

Concur with other comments about the low margin for error.   I've played in 2 different "bone dry" conditions: 

 

• hardpan (almost concrete) fairways.  Likely what you get in Texas.  The club will bounce off the fairway if you try to compress the ball, leading to a thinned shot
• Dry sandy soil.  What we get here in FL.  The ground isn't hard, but you can't compress the ball as the club will just slide underneath the ball, and the ball only goes a partial distance.

In both of the above conditions, you need to pick the ball, and low bounce is your friend.  Very shallow angle of attack.  

 

Or you could say screw it and just bump-and-run a shot up on the green.  Like I do.  :)

[me05501]

You have to let the lie you face dictate the shot you play.

 

In this case it seems like you're trying to make your gear and/or the lie fit the shot in your head. That's the wrong way to think about it.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by me05501

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Hello. 
 

Summer is around the corner and it has not rained in a few weeks. Its really dry and the grass has seen better days. 
 

You have 50y to the green and want to land it soft, preferably a higher type of shot. 
 

What wedge, grind and bounce?

 

I tried to do a few difference shots but the bounce (12 I think) made the club just bounce of the ground and topping the ball. Sure I can lean the shaft more and take off some lofts.

 

Or, is this a case of ”you cant hit that shot” so doing a long low chip with plenty of rollout is the only option?

We judge bounce from 2 directions
- Static bounce, or simply "sole angle"
- Effective bounce or the leading edge height above ground in address position

This makes it a bit complicated, since some OEMs specify Static bounce, other specify Effective bounce, so the parameters we are delivered is often NOT compatible values...

Play from a hard surface can be done with high static bounce, but low effective bounce
(read SHORT sole from leading edge to trailing edge), or with a low static bounce.

The right choice would be a wedge that fits TODAYs playing conditions, but still able to handle other conditions...

Thats why i play sole grinds thats "self adjusting" to the surface the ball lies on.'

My swing style is DIGGER, so i should play wedges with high EFFECTIVE bounce (high leading edge), but thats very problematic when turf conditions is stone hard, so i need a sole that able to REDUCE and lower effective bounce if the surface demands that.

My set up is quite simple, i play 2 wedges on top of my 47.5* PW, and thats a GW with 53/17* and a LOB with 59/17*, but both can be played from concrete hard surfaces without issues at all.

The GW has whats called a "full shot grind", its a rather wide sole and high static and effective bounce, but the MID section of the leading edge is pushed forward against the middle of the sole, so is the surface is hard, i have LOW effective bounce, and no problems even with a wide sole and 17* as static bounce.

Look at the head to the left, and pay attention to the trailing edge
Its shortened "all over", and EXTRA at the middle, so if the surface is hard, its only the mid section of the sole that comes to play, and it can handle concrete hard surfaces without lifting the leading edge. IF the surface is soft, it will go deeper, and the "wide shoulders" heel and toe side comes to assistance. (The original sole to the right)



For LOB wedge, i use my own "PM grind" (Phil Michelson grind, or a modified version of what Bob Vokey once made for him). The difference to todays PM grind is the channel in the sole, who in the modified version, delivers a "bounce delay", so if the surface is hard, i can still get full access to the ball, and full ball compression before the sole starts to work. Again "self adjusting" to the surface its played from, so it works silly good for what ever shot and surface its played from.

It can be made in several different versions, depending on the general turf conditions and how its
played. (from back to front, Hard sand, medium sand, loose sand - wider the sole/channel is, the better it is in LOOSE sand and opposite)

.


Mine looks like this now, they should had a new treatment of black oxide but...


So, make sure you get what you seek, and dont look at "specs" like they was compatible from brand to brand, they are NOT, and ask yourself HOW do you want to play them? Full shots? only partials? open? flop shots? general turf and sand conditions...

Anything is possible, we just need to know what we want.

[golfinbrad]

6 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

We judge bounce from 2 directions
- Static bounce, or simply "sole angle"
- Effective bounce or the leading edge height above ground in address position

This makes it a bit complicated, since some OEMs specify Static bounce, other specify Effective bounce, so the parameters we are delivered is often NOT compatible values...

Play from a hard surface can be done with high static bounce, but low effective bounce
(read SHORT sole from leading edge to trailing edge), or with a low static bounce.

The right choice would be a wedge that fits TODAYs playing conditions, but still able to handle other conditions...

Thats why i play sole grinds thats "self adjusting" to the surface the ball lies on.'

My swing style is DIGGER, so i should play wedges with high EFFECTIVE bounce (high leading edge), but thats very problematic when turf conditions is stone hard, so i need a sole that able to REDUCE and lower effective bounce if the surface demands that.

My set up is quite simple, i play 2 wedges on top of my 47.5* PW, and thats a GW with 53/17* and a LOB with 59/17*, but both can be played from concrete hard surfaces without issues at all.

The GW has whats called a "full shot grind", its a rather wide sole and high static and effective bounce, but the MID section of the leading edge is pushed forward against the middle of the sole, so is the surface is hard, i have LOW effective bounce, and no problems even with a wide sole and 17* as static bounce.

Look at the head to the left, and pay attention to the trailing edge
Its shortened "all over", and EXTRA at the middle, so if the surface is hard, its only the mid section of the sole that comes to play, and it can handle concrete hard surfaces without lifting the leading edge. IF the surface is soft, it will go deeper, and the "wide shoulders" heel and toe side comes to assistance. (The original sole to the right)



For LOB wedge, i use my own "PM grind" (Phil Michelson grind, or a modified version of what Bob Vokey once made for him). The difference to todays PM grind is the channel in the sole, who in the modified version, delivers a "bounce delay", so if the surface is hard, i can still get full access to the ball, and full ball compression before the sole starts to work. Again "self adjusting" to the surface its played from, so it works silly good for what ever shot and surface its played from.

It can be made in several different versions, depending on the general turf conditions and how its
played. (from back to front, Hard sand, medium sand, loose sand - wider the sole/channel is, the better it is in LOOSE sand and opposite)

.


Mine looks like this now, they should had a new treatment of black oxide but...


So, make sure you get what you seek, and dont look at "specs" like they was compatible from brand to brand, they are NOT, and ask yourself HOW do you want to play them? Full shots? only partials? open? flop shots? general turf and sand conditions...

Anything is possible, we just need to know what we want.

Man, loved those Scratch wedges.  That line of irons and wedges were awesome!!!!

[bmbsawy]

This shot is absolutely possible but the margin of error bringing it in high and soft is slim.. make sure you have 30y behind the green to play back from if you’re not 100% confident lol

[Bye]

Im going with my 60 degree M grind, face open handle lowered, delivered with a bit of speed.  

[IndyArcher]

2 hours ago, golfinbrad said:

Like already said low bounce.  I would use my Cobra 58* wide low with 6* bounce.  Easier to hit it high off a harder lie.  With the wedge you have, you almost need to take it in lower to prevent the bounce from taking over.  Of course, when the rain comes and fairways get really soft, you will want that bounce.  That is the advantage the pros have.  They can change wedge bounce/grind each week based on the conditions. 

 

First of all, small world. I live in fayetteville and play Caroll and Gettysburg National somewhat regularly. As for club choice, I was under the impression that design of the WideLow was primarily for soft conditions? Maybe I completely misunderstand the design of that club? I admit to being somewhat confused about all the bounce and grind options out there, even after watching some of the videos from Vokey et al., so to have that wrong would be anything but a surprise. 

[golfinbrad]

1 minute ago, IndyArcher said:

 

First of all, small world. I live in fayetteville and play Caroll and Gettysburg National somewhat regularly. As for club choice, I was under the impression that design of the WideLow was primarily for soft conditions? Maybe I completely misunderstand the design of that club? I admit to being somewhat confused about all the bounce and grind options out there, even after watching some of the videos from Vokey et al., so to have that wrong would be anything but a surprise. 

Small world in deed.  A lot of which bounces are going to depend on technic for sure.  Steeper vs shallow will have a big impact.  Just another variable that will vary person to person.

 

I play most of my rounds at CV.  It uses to be at GN, until the ownership change and everyone and their brother joined.  Still play there, but not as a single.  Can be a lot of standing around.

[hammergolf]

4 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Hello. 
 

Summer is around the corner and it has not rained in a few weeks. Its really dry and the grass has seen better days. 
 

You have 50y to the green and want to land it soft, preferably a higher type of shot. 
 

What wedge, grind and bounce?

 

I tried to do a few difference shots but the bounce (12 I think) made the club just bounce of the ground and topping the ball. Sure I can lean the shaft more and take off some lofts.

 

Or, is this a case of ”you cant hit that shot” so doing a long low chip with plenty of rollout is the only option?

Very tough shot that requires perfect impact regardless of the wedge used. A lower bounce with a thinner sole would help, but still requires almost perfect technique. Not trying to be a smartWord not allowed, but don’t leave yourself with that shot. Lay it back to full shot distance like the pros do.

[golfwb]

Low bounce is the correct equipment answer.

Personally, I would go more into the course management way of looking at it.

I have big weakness in my game and have a very small chance of hitting a good shot 45 - 75 yards out so I either lay back or get closer to chipping range. 

[phizzy30]

You can always pick up a low bounce wedge with a higher than desired loft and have it bent 1-2* strong to get the desired loft and at the same time lower bounce even more.  That's what I did with my 58* Miura wedge.  It was originally 60* with 6* bounce but is now 58* with 4* bounce.  Also, in terms of the actual chip/pitch off of hard pan, what I do is open the face, aim more to the left, put the ball slightly in the back of my stance and take a slightly steeper swipe at it making sure I make contact with the ball first.  Ball usually comes out with plenty of height and enough spin.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

27 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Also, in terms of the actual chip/pitch off of hard pan, what I do is open the face, aim more to the left, put the ball slightly in the back of my stance and take a slightly steeper swipe at it making sure I make contact with the ball first.  Ball usually comes out with plenty of height and enough spin.

This is my experience as well.  But I grew up with these sort of janky, hardpan conditions.  (One reason it took me forever to learn how to take a divot.)  I aim body 20-30° left, and point face at target.  Even with a swing thought of keeping the hands well ahead of the clubhead, and keeping the body turning, I am decent at putting loft on the ball.  Don't ask me to flight anything low though.  And it's rough on the soles of my clubs, when I do it.

 

I marvel at the story of Paul Azinger hitting balls off blacktop (Maybe there was a rain delay?  These sorts of things always happen during rain delays...) with a wedge, and getting asked if he was worried about hitting the ground with his club.  Paul replied that, "No, I'm a professional."  'K then...

[Righty to Lefty]

You didn't top the ball because of the bounce, you topped it because your low point of your swing arc was behind the ball and the leading edge struck above the equator of the ball.  You should engage the turf on partial wedge shots prior to striking the ball no matter the turf conditions but the low point of your swing arc still needs to be in front of the ball. This is a flaw in your technique. The "flat spot" that is often talked about is only possible if you engage the turf prior to striking the ball, yet the bounce keeps he leading edge above the level of the turf making it skid along the surface to the other side of the ball. Striking shots off tight turf are the easiest because there is so much room for error as long as you just keep the club moving.  

 

 

 

[grochol17]

4 hours ago, me05501 said:

You have to let the lie you face dictate the shot you play.

 

In this case it seems like you're trying to make your gear and/or the lie fit the shot in your head. That's the wrong way to think about it.

 

 

^^^This.  Sometimes you just have to suck it up and not try to get it close because you're in a tough spot and the shot you need to hit to get it close is one that you *shouldn't* try to hit.

 

If I've got 50 yards on a tight lie with nothing in between me and the hole, I'd probably grab my 54.14 (bent 1* strong), play the ball a little back, take an aggressive half swing, focusing on hitting the ball first to get some spin, and plan to land it a bit short so that it will hop and stop (hopefully). 

 

If I need to come in high (hole cut just over the water or a bunker with a big lip in the way), I'd probably do something similar, but with my 58* wedge.  Or I might still use the 54*, but with the ball in more of a normal position.  Either way, I'd aim to hit it 55-60 yards... I'd rather worry about a 15-30 foot putt than figuring out how to extricate myself from a deep bunker or where to drop the ball after taking a penalty shot.

[Pepperturbo]

7 hours ago, Brokensticks said:

Hello. 
 

You have 50y to the green and want to land it soft, preferably a higher type of shot. 
 

What wedge, grind and bounce?

 

I tried to do a few difference shots but the bounce (12 I think) made the club just bounce of the ground and topping the ball. Sure I can lean the shaft more and take off some lofts.

 

Or, is this a case of ”you cant hit that shot” so doing a long low chip with plenty of rollout is the only option?

I use M-58'/8' bounce, and open the face half-way and go at the pin, typically short 10' or so, allowing for release and a little rollout.

 

A long low pitch/chip depends on speed of the green, and how much green and undulations are between green edge and pin.  Depending on your spin control, the lower chip shot has more run out, so executing can be challenging too.