Pros are good...because it's their job?

[golfer07840]

So often times I'll point something great out that a Pro does to a buddy of mine. For example the Taylor Made video circulating of Rory guessing his yardages after he hits it, within a yard. I send it to him and his response? "Of course he's good, it's his job " 

 

That's his answer/response, everytime. My argument is, sure it's their job, but they got the job because they were incredibly talented to begin with. 

 

This could be an egg/chicken thing, but I'll stand by the fact they are talented, which got them there. You just don't roll out of bed one day and decide "I'm going to be a Tour pro" and just go do it (there are outliers, I'm sure). 

 

Thoughts on this ludicrous "debate"? *

 

*Yes I know this silly, but I'm genuinely curious. 

[Ross_Albatross]

Talent before it becomes a job, it’s a prerequisite. Lots of stories of guys that quit their real job to make it on Tour and never came close.

[m d g]

Tastes great!

 

Less filling!

 

Repeat...

[luke1333]

38 minutes ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Talent before it becomes a job, it’s a prerequisite. Lots of stories of guys that quit their real job to make it on Tour and never came close.

Agreed, now if everybody on WRX for example had unlimited money and could workout and golf everyday there may be a few more pros but hard to say

[PedronNiall]

Tiger pointed out many a time that he is not especially talented and most of his golf ability comes from the obscene amount of time he puts in. I'm inclined to think this is the case for 98% of golfers. How many end up in the winner's circle repeatedly without practicing golf like an actual job? There have been a lot of series over the years that show some or all of the daily aspects of different pros. The one's who had humdrum routines of maybe an hour or two of practice a day might have earned a living out there but the weren't hoisting multiple trophies every year or winning Majors. Even Koepka's "I don't really care about the game I'm just good at it" veneer broke down in that Netflix series and it was shown the game mattered to him and he was good because he put in time, not with zero effort.

 

Aside from Daly I can't think of anyone who could truly just mail it in when it comes to practicing and still destroy the field when he's on.

 

It's interesting that people think any top athletes on the whole would be all that different than the top 5 or 10% in traditional careers. The best analysts, engineers, programmers, chefs, surgeons, contractors, ad naseum, I know or have come across are all at the top because of the time they put in. Yes, there are rare, rare exceptions who just have talent beyond all reason and don't even have to try, but the exception doesn't negate the rule. Most of the people you see doing things exceptionally well are not talented exceptions, they are people who for whatever reason are drawn to their field and excel in it because they put in time 90+% of people would never be willing to devote.

 

Lastly, almost everyone I've ever met who's really good at something has "the sickness" when it comes to that thing: they simply cannot stop doing it until they do it well. Once they learn to do it well they can't stop refining or honing the good bits.

 

No, talent is not what propels most of the best to where they are. If it were, those same players at the top of golf would stay at the top until their body and nerves waned too much for them to do so. That's not what we see. We generally see the hungriest players who want to win and only to win, who are satisfied with little else, at the top.

[straightshot7]

In someone like Rory’s case…you can say it’s his job and he’s ranked in the top 5 in the world in his profession…that’s the key caveat.

Edited May 18, 2023 by straightshot7

[straightshot7]

15 minutes ago, PedronNiall said:

Tiger pointed out many a time that he is not especially talented and most of his golf ability comes from the obscene amount of time he puts in. I'm inclined to think this is the case for 98% of golfers. How many end up in the winner's circle repeatedly without practicing golf like an actual job? There have been a lot of series over the years that show some or all of the daily aspects of different pros. The one's who had humdrum routines of maybe an hour or two of practice a day might have earned a living out there but the weren't hoisting multiple trophies every year or winning Majors. Even Koepka's "I don't really care about the game I'm just good at it" veneer broke down in that Netflix series and it was shown the game mattered to him and he was good because he put in time, not with zero effort.

 

Aside from Daly I can't think of anyone who could truly just mail it in when it comes to practicing and still destroy the field when he's on.

 

It's interesting that people think any top athletes on the whole would be all that different than the top 5 or 10% in traditional careers. The best analysts, engineers, programmers, chefs, surgeons, contractors, ad naseum, I know or have come across are all at the top because of the time they put in. Yes, there are rare, rare exceptions who just have talent beyond all reason and don't even have to try, but the exception doesn't negate the rule. Most of the people you see doing things exceptionally well are not talented exceptions, they are people who for whatever reason are drawn to their field and excel in it because they put in time 90+% of people would never be willing to devote.

 

Lastly, almost everyone I've ever met who's really good at something has "the sickness" when it comes to that thing: they simply cannot stop doing it until they do it well. Once they learn to do it well they can't stop refining or honing the good bits.

 

No, talent is not what propels most of the best to where they are. If it were, those same players at the top of golf would stay at the top until their body and nerves waned too much for them to do so. That's not what we see. We generally see the hungriest players who want to win and only to win, who are satisfied with little else, at the top.

not disagreeing with anything you said but Tiger is full of crap when he says that. 
 

he probably likes to think of himself as made by his work ethic, but he was insanely talented and gifted.

 

no one swings like that as a child and has that short game without being extremely talented.

he’s also naturally very flexible, his dad said so. 
 

his work ethic and mental approach put him into the goat category, but he definitely had top 1% talent. 

[shoot4par]

Quote

Pros are good...because it's their job?

 

Well, if they weren't job retention would become a issue.  

[iBanesto]

9 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

So often times I'll point something great out that a Pro does to a buddy of mine. For example the Taylor Made video circulating of Rory guessing his yardages after he hits it, within a yard. I send it to him and his response? "Of course he's good, it's his job " 

 

That's his answer/response, everytime. My argument is, sure it's their job, but they got the job because they were incredibly talented to begin with. 

 

This could be an egg/chicken thing, but I'll stand by the fact they are talented, which got them there. You just don't roll out of bed one day and decide "I'm going to be a Tour pro" and just go do it (there are outliers, I'm sure). 

 

Thoughts on this ludicrous "debate"? *

 

*Yes I know this silly, but I'm genuinely curious. 

 

GolfWRX members on here can hit their shots to the nearest inch...

 

[IndyArcher]

My dad was a cop for 35 years. He spent the first 20 on the road. As kids my brother and I  used to test his ability to gauge car speeds against a radar. I don’t recall him ever being more than 2 mph off even with cars approaching rather than just passing by. Why? It’s what he did say in and day out. Did he have a knack for it? Sure! But it was also the life he lived constantly and eventually it becomes rote. 

[bladehunter]

7 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Tiger pointed out many a time that he is not especially talented and most of his golf ability comes from the obscene amount of time he puts in. I'm inclined to think this is the case for 98% of golfers. How many end up in the winner's circle repeatedly without practicing golf like an actual job? There have been a lot of series over the years that show some or all of the daily aspects of different pros. The one's who had humdrum routines of maybe an hour or two of practice a day might have earned a living out there but the weren't hoisting multiple trophies every year or winning Majors. Even Koepka's "I don't really care about the game I'm just good at it" veneer broke down in that Netflix series and it was shown the game mattered to him and he was good because he put in time, not with zero effort.

 

Aside from Daly I can't think of anyone who could truly just mail it in when it comes to practicing and still destroy the field when he's on.

 

It's interesting that people think any top athletes on the whole would be all that different than the top 5 or 10% in traditional careers. The best analysts, engineers, programmers, chefs, surgeons, contractors, ad naseum, I know or have come across are all at the top because of the time they put in. Yes, there are rare, rare exceptions who just have talent beyond all reason and don't even have to try, but the exception doesn't negate the rule. Most of the people you see doing things exceptionally well are not talented exceptions, they are people who for whatever reason are drawn to their field and excel in it because they put in time 90+% of people would never be willing to devote.

 

Lastly, almost everyone I've ever met who's really good at something has "the sickness" when it comes to that thing: they simply cannot stop doing it until they do it well. Once they learn to do it well they can't stop refining or honing the good bits.

 

No, talent is not what propels most of the best to where they are. If it were, those same players at the top of golf would stay at the top until their body and nerves waned too much for them to do so. That's not what we see. We generally see the hungriest players who want to win and only to win, who are satisfied with little else, at the top.

The only other one I can think of is Bubba in his prime … he’s on record as saying he didn’t really practice. Just played. 
 

most are who they are from work ethic. The brian harmons and Kevin kisners lr the world aren’t gifted freaks in any category.  Except maybe golf cart jumping and or trash talking.  

[golfer07840]

So I was initially right; this is a, what came first, the chicken or the egg, thing.

 

Guess it depends on how your look at it. 

 

As for Tiger, he was literally bred and groomed to be this. 

 

Mods can now close this. Appreciate it.

[gvogel]

7 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

not disagreeing with anything you said but Tiger is full of crap when he says that. 
 

he probably likes to think of himself as made by his work ethic, but he was insanely talented and gifted.

 

no one swings like that as a child and has that short game without being extremely talented.

he’s also naturally very flexible, his dad said so. 
 

his work ethic and mental approach put him into the goat category, but he definitely had top 1% talent. 

Totally agree.  If he hadn't had the talent, he wouldn't have practiced as much, because it would not have been rewarding.  He would have given up before he reached his teens.  If he only had the talent of a lesser touring pro, he would have scaled back his practice much earlier in life.

[Carson33]

8 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Tiger pointed out many a time that he is not especially talented and most of his golf ability comes from the obscene amount of time he puts in. I'm inclined to think this is the case for 98% of golfers. How many end up in the winner's circle repeatedly without practicing golf like an actual job? There have been a lot of series over the years that show some or all of the daily aspects of different pros. The one's who had humdrum routines of maybe an hour or two of practice a day might have earned a living out there but the weren't hoisting multiple trophies every year or winning Majors. Even Koepka's "I don't really care about the game I'm just good at it" veneer broke down in that Netflix series and it was shown the game mattered to him and he was good because he put in time, not with zero effort.

 

Aside from Daly I can't think of anyone who could truly just mail it in when it comes to practicing and still destroy the field when he's on.

 

It's interesting that people think any top athletes on the whole would be all that different than the top 5 or 10% in traditional careers. The best analysts, engineers, programmers, chefs, surgeons, contractors, ad naseum, I know or have come across are all at the top because of the time they put in. Yes, there are rare, rare exceptions who just have talent beyond all reason and don't even have to try, but the exception doesn't negate the rule. Most of the people you see doing things exceptionally well are not talented exceptions, they are people who for whatever reason are drawn to their field and excel in it because they put in time 90+% of people would never be willing to devote.

 

Lastly, almost everyone I've ever met who's really good at something has "the sickness" when it comes to that thing: they simply cannot stop doing it until they do it well. Once they learn to do it well they can't stop refining or honing the good bits.

 

No, talent is not what propels most of the best to where they are. If it were, those same players at the top of golf would stay at the top until their body and nerves waned too much for them to do so. That's not what we see. We generally see the hungriest players who want to win and only to win, who are satisfied with little else, at the top.

This is very well put. I do think Tiger was insanely gifted and THEN also put in the effort to be great. He could have just practiced like the rest and maybe won 3-4 majors and 30 tournaments without going the extra mile, but that is what made him great (and his mind).

 

As far as the talented without having to work at it - Fred Couples has said he didn't have to work at it in his prime; it was just there. - Bruce Leitzkie never practiced, Bubba Watson just liked to goof off on the range; which is why he got limited playing time at UGA.

 

I think what is necessary to be a professional golfer (or anything you want), it usually starts in childhood where you have no other responsibilities whatsoever, and then you get "the sickness" as you say it. Whatever you choose, it has to be your PASSION and OBSESSION, and you become great at a young age and that propels you to seek it as a career.  When I was a kid, I fell in LOVE with flying. I ate, slept, walked, talked and dreamed about flying 100% of the time. I flew everyday, I pushed myself to hone my skills even better than most, taught other people to fly, and after college, I became a fighter pilot and then had a career in the airlines. Lastly, I had a father that was a decorated fighter pilot and a Great-uncle that was one of the best instructors in the nation teaching me (think Earl and Butch).  Without arrogance, I can honestly say I was better than most at what I did. If I would have taken up flying after college and received the typical training almost all other pilots received, I doubt I would have had the skills that I eventually had throughout my career. I would have been good, but not great.

 

While the list of those that never had to practice and had a good career on the PGA Tour is short, I bet the list of professionals that took up the game later in life and just had unlimited time to practice and then "made it" is even shorter.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Carson33

[ShortGolfer]

A good example is Carly Rae Jepsen, who's Call Me Maybe video has an astonishing 1.5Billion hits on YouTube.

She could have retired as a one hit wonder, but has walked through many of the doors that were now open to her!

She did a broadway stage debut!  Her latest video uses the connections she made doing that!  

She tours constantly, and has gotten better and better.  You can't get that good without putting in the work.

 

As far as talent goes, she placed 2nd on Canadian Idol.  No, she wasn't insanely talented to begin with but is arguably at the top with her on stage presence right now.

She put in the work to get there, singing at minor venues to gain valuable experience.  

She also did concerts in Japan and other foreign countries. Places where she wanted to travel.  

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, IndyArcher said:

My dad was a cop for 35 years. He spent the first 20 on the road. As kids my brother and I  used to test his ability to gauge car speeds against a radar. I don’t recall him ever being more than 2 mph off even with cars approaching rather than just passing by. Why? It’s what he did say in and day out. Did he have a knack for it? Sure! But it was also the life he lived constantly and eventually it becomes rote. 

 

This. It's Rory guessing his yardages after he hit the ball. Rory has the talent to hit a ball within a very specific distance most of the time, but that's a completely different skill than guessing his yardages. Guessing yardages is something that IMHO just comes with experience of hitting hundreds of thousands of golf shots, knowing the feel and sound of it coming off the club, seeing the trajectory, etc. Basically the same skill your dad picked up from watching cars and looking for speeders for 20 years. 

 

Is it pretty impressive to watch? Yes. But it's a skill that I would basically expect anyone in that situation (pro golfer, policeman) to attain over time such that it's basically second nature. 

[Anser]

9 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

not disagreeing with anything you said but Tiger is full of crap when he says that. 
 

he probably likes to think of himself as made by his work ethic, but he was insanely talented and gifted.

 

no one swings like that as a child and has that short game without being extremely talented.

he’s also naturally very flexible, his dad said so. 
 

his work ethic and mental approach put him into the goat category, but he definitely had top 1% talent. 

He played no other sport, couldn't dribble a basketball, and was a stunt double for Urkel.

 

Little kids often have amazing swings because they don't care.  He was programmed by watching his dad hit balls while he sat in a high chair and would just mimic what he saw.

 

Only on WRX could Tiger Woods tell you that effort was the key to his success, a fact we all know was how Hogan saw it as well, and someone would challenge their belief lol

 

If natural athletic ability, flexibility, etc were present in Tiger, then Michael Phelps or half the NBA should be dominating the tour 🙂

[TiScape]

I’m going with. It’s their job bcs they better at it than 99.9% of the population of planet earth. 

[Long_Left]

There is a "natural gift" element to great players, but it isn't innate alethic ability, it's body awareness aligning with intent. The "feel vs real" gap is narrower in people who progress quickly in sports. 

 

This is, of course, an opinion. It's based on roughly 30 years of playing public golf with thousands of random pairings. I have watched people play incredibly well (for a middle aged amateur weekend warrior) with some of the most ridiculous fundamental "flaws" because they can match up their intent with their movements. Ludicrous alignment, 30 degrees off target, trail hand so strong it looks painful, lines up the putter a ball out towards the toe. Stress free 76 on a tough course they've never seen from 6800 yards. 

 

45 yard cut with driver, every single swing, misses 2 fairways all day, draws every approach shot.

 

Flip so hard they can't get the ball 75 feet in the air, hits 15 greens. This guy doesn't do great on a firm course admittedly, but he's from the deep south, and it works for him, really well. I have pictures, it's ugly, he also beats me most of the time and has been as low as a +1. Don't bet him, he's been to a range less than 5 times over the last 3 years.

 

I've played with so many of these people that I could write 5 pages of this. Along with another 5 of players who have an aesthetic beauty to their action that couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat because they stand over it and haven't got a faint clue of where the ball is going to start, much less curve. 

 

I have probably a dozen videos on my phone of swings by random pairings that make Charles Barkley's worst look mundane, some of them weren't successful, but most times I grabbed the phone was due to the shock of how effective they were at making it work, repeatedly. One guy had enough overrun in his backswing that the club was, quite literally, pointed 80 degrees right and the shaft was angled 50+ degrees down when the club head changed direction to the downswing, it went over the top of his head, arms fully collapsed and wrists went dead limp. His clubhead moved more past and back to parallel than Jon Rahm's does from address to impact but he hit the clubface and his start line on every swing I watched that day. 

 

Tour (and other elite) players have either the ability to align their motion with their intent, or the mental and physical ability to ingest external feedback and turn it into internal actions. This ability is rare, or rarely utilized, among the rest of us.

 

I could write 50 pages about the player that lines up 25 degrees right, hits it OB right, dead down the aim line, then goes to youtube and the range to figure out why they are hitting a push... even after their issue is plainly communicated and proven to them with alignment sticks or launch monitors, they go right back to their safe spot and next Saturday they line up OB, hit it OB, and here we go again. Mind made of concrete, attitude of a badger with a toothache.

 

Combine the player who understands how they are moving with why they are moving that way, consciously (Morikawa) or unconsciously (Bubba), and push that with some ability to generate power and effective coaching(or not, in Bubba's case) and you have a player. 

 

Watch the Colt Knost/Max Homa Barstool video. In a blind test, anyone here would look at Colt's swing and put his handicap over 10, while he wasn't wildly successful on Tour, you cannot argue he isn't an incredibly good golfer. 

 

 

[PureStrikes54]

Really dumb statement that mediocre golfers use to hide their own insecurities. Have also heard the "I'd be +4 instead of a 2 handicap if I just practiced" which drives me crazy. 

 

Plenty of examples of kids in high school or college with significant time commitments to academics that are at a very high level. Also, some teaching pros that can really play as well with significant teaching schedules. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by PureStrikes54

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

11 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Tiger pointed out many a time that he is not especially talented and most of his golf ability comes from the obscene amount of time he puts in.

I'm sure he put in a ton of work as a 2 year old, when his dad was dragging him along to perform on the Mike Douglas Show to hit trick shots.

 

I get that Tiger likely believes that, and that mindset is part of how he got as great as he did, but get real already.

[MUNIGRIT]

13 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

 

Aside from Daly I can't think of anyone who could truly just mail it in when it comes to practicing and still destroy the field when he's on.

Bruce Lietzke was easily the guy who was a good player and didn't practice. He had a swing that didn't require much maintenance. Could he have been better practicing? Who knows as it may have ruined his attitude. There is no guarantee that practice will make you better. Talent is what counts. 

 

DJ wasn't a big practice guy either for a lot of his career. I'm guessing he is back to that stage.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

I'm sure he put in a ton of work as a 2 year old, when his dad was dragging him along to perform on the Mike Douglas Show to hit trick shots.

 

I get that Tiger likely believes that, and that mindset is part of how he got as great as he did, but get real already.

Not sure if you've ever seen the And One mixed tapes, but they are a perfect example of raw talent. Some of the most naturally gifted basketball players ever, even according to NBA greats. You know how many of them made it to the NBA? One. 

 

That player talked in depth about the difference in making it to the top level or not being the practice. He mentioned that there were many players in the NBA who were renowned for their skills and were top scorers, etc., but didn't have anywhere near the talent the guys from the street did. The difference was the guys who made it to the NBA all did the work in the gym and with teams starting early in the morning and going as late as they needed to over and over and over again. 

 

We're all free to believe whatever we want, but almost every single top tier player in every sport has anecdote after anecdote or film after film and so on of them putting in work that most people couldn't be paid enough to do. 

 

Lewis Hamilton & Max Verstappen are no doubt talented, but they've also put in grueling carting and eventually full car sessions in since they were kids and continued to do so even when they had the choice to stop. Same for Jordan, Kobe, Phelps, and any other best of the best athletes. 

 

Jason Day just finished a year and a half rebuild of his swing that required hours of work each day according to him and direct connections here on the forum. You know who's given multiple accounts of Tiger putting in even more time than Day does? Day himself. 

 

You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine as there's no perfect data to form an absolute on this one way or another, but I'm going to defer to the best players themselves as well as their own peers when it comes to whether or not the very best are carried by their talent or their otherworldly work ethic. 

 

You won't ever convince me that talent is the heavier weight over the drive to practice to excel in producing shots like this. 

[jimecherry]

3 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

Bruce Lietzke was easily the guy who was a good player and didn't practice. He had a swing that didn't require much maintenance. Could he have been better practicing? Who knows as it may have ruined his attitude. There is no guarantee that practice will make you better. Talent is what counts. 

 

DJ wasn't a big practice guy either for a lot of his career. I'm guessing he is back to that stage.

practice should be what keeps you good not what makes you better imho. a combination of practice and playing is what should make you better.

[Pepperturbo]

Natural talent to hit shots is one thing, being able to guess exact yardage to a spot, is something else.  Example, there are a lot of LD shooters from sniper school that told a distance to target, can hit a target, but not all can visually guess yardage to a target without technology help.  Has little to do with someone's job but more to do with how someone's brain works.

[Naptime]

It's their job because they are good at it, among other things.  They are also willing to practice and grind to improve and maintain their skills.  Some folks are great golfers but don't need the money or they don't want to devote their adult lives to the game.  It wasn't Bobby Jones' profession.

[MtlJeff]

It's a bit of both, you have to have natural ability and you have to work at it....it's not an either/or

 

I'm sure we all remember kids from our high school basketball teams or etc, where it wouldn't matter if they put in 50000 hours, they would never be great. 

 

Like , whose kid do you think will be better at soccer, that of Alex Morgan and her husband who are both pro soccer players....or some random. I'm taking the former. 

 

I was good at a lot of sports, my dad played in the CFL and ran marathons....probably not a coincidence. 

[MUNIGRIT]

Carlos Franco was another one who didn't practice. Wasn't a great player but he won a couple times and enjoyed himself fishing for practice rounds and no warm ups. 

 

Did Cabrera practice much?

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

You won't ever convince me that talent is the heavier weight over the drive to practice to excel in producing shots like this. 

 

 

No amount of practice is going to turn Joe Hacker into even a mini tour player.

 

Elite athletes in any sport are, just that elite. They have a physical skill set that very few of us can really comprehend. Even the worst of them is miles better than anyone on this forum.

 

Now yes, the guys who work really hard are then able to maximize their talent or perhaps close the gap between themselves and the guys with even MORE freakish natural talent but natural ability comes first and is the dominant factor by a long way.

[farmer]

If a player is not insanely talented, no amount of work is going to put them on tour.