Pros are good...because it's their job?

[WidespreadPanic]

While it is ridiculous to think people could become your pros if they had the time/money, I don’t find it that impressive that they can guess their yardages. Saying “it’s their job” is actually a response that makes sense for this. They practice a TON, and if a top 10 golfer in the world couldn’t “guess” their yardages, they wouldn’t be a top 10 player.

[Naptime]

I've known a couple Olympic quality middle distance runners, one of who won an individual gold medal.  Good genes, tons of talent, and real dedication.  No comparison at all to recreational runners or even really good amateurs who place high in lesser events.  

[ChipStrokes]

15 hours ago, iBanesto said:

 

GolfWRX members on here can hit their shots to the nearest inch...

 

this argument happened on the tee box on 8 today. 

 

me: i shot it at 176 playing 172

 

other guy: i got 180

 

me: oh, ok. 

 

other guy: the number is 180, not 176

 

me: none of us are good enough for those 4 yards to matter. 

 

other guy: it matters. gotta get the right number. 

 

me: ok go hit it 180 then. 

 

he ended up 15 yards short of the green and left of the bunker on the left. 

 

he obviously wasn’t a wrx’er. my ball pitched at 176 and rolled out to 180 for a tap-in birdie. 

[MUNIGRIT]

A good thread would be who is the golfer who got the most out of his game woth the least amount put in? I think I named the winner earlier but there has to be similar type of players 

Edited May 19, 2023 by MUNIGRIT

[OBbogey5]

22 minutes ago, MUNIGRIT said:

A good thread would be who is the golfer who got the most out of his game woth the least amount put in? I think I named the winner earlier but there has to be similar type of players 

Old Bruce. Every time.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

8 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

...You won't ever convince me that talent is the heavier weight over the drive to practice to excel...

Not claiming at all that talent outweighs drive in Tiger's case.  I am claiming that drive is not the only thing Tiger had going for him and that Tiger was absurdly talented at golf from a very early age.  As those Mike Douglas clips showed.

 

To discount Tiger's talent as merely being a byproduct of his work ethic is just silly.  You, I, 99% of the golfers on Earth could work as hard as Tiger or harder, want it as much as Tiger, and not even sniff the Tour.  Minitours are filled with guys chock full of desire, drive, and work.  Doesn't mean anything if they don't also have talent.

 

Of course, when you combine his amazing talent with a stunning work ethic and a champion's mindset, you emd up with a GOAT leading contender.  I don't think we're really disagreeing here.

[golfer07840]

16 hours ago, MtlJeff said:

It's a bit of both, you have to have natural ability and you have to work at it....it's not an either/or

 

I'm sure we all remember kids from our high school basketball teams or etc, where it wouldn't matter if they put in 50000 hours, they would never be great. 

 

Like , whose kid do you think will be better at soccer, that of Alex Morgan and her husband who are both pro soccer players....or some random. I'm taking the former. 

 

I was good at a lot of sports, my dad played in the CFL and ran marathons....probably not a coincidence. 

It's absolutely no coincidence. Genetics play a huge part in this. Coincidentally that's  something else he always agues with me about. "Genetics don't help" so I put that one to the test last August when I attended one of Monte's clinics. I flat out asked him "your dad being a pretty good baseball player, think they has anything to do with you being good at this?" His answer? "Absolutely" turns out his grandfather was a professional soccer player. Are we shocked his 12 yr old son is reaching 500 yd par 5's in 2? 

 

Yeah, you got to put in the work, obviously. But a good gene pool helps. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by golfer07840
Typos

[TexasTurf]

You give any average mildly athletic guy their lifestyle and they will qualify for any mini tour. Just met Harry Higgs today and he would agree with that.

Edited May 19, 2023 by TexasTurf

[golfer07840]

2 hours ago, ChipStrokes said:

this argument happened on the tee box on 8 today. 

 

me: i shot it at 176 playing 172

 

other guy: i got 180

 

me: oh, ok. 

 

other guy: the number is 180, not 176

 

me: none of us are good enough for those 4 yards to matter. 

 

other guy: it matters. gotta get the right number. 

 

me: ok go hit it 180 then. 

 

he ended up 15 yards short of the green and left of the bunker on the left. 

 

he obviously wasn’t a wrx’er. my ball pitched at 176 and rolled out to 180 for a tap-in birdie. 

I had a similar situation last yr, but it was more about his club selection and of course, thinking he could hit father than he could. 

 

Started on a par 3, 5th hole. 140 to the middle, elevated green, id say 5 or 6 ft, nothing crazy. 

 

He goes "hmm, If I hit PW really hard, I can get it there." So I said "ok" and he goes "you don't believe me?" I told him politely that it wasn't a matter of believing him, but why? You hit a PW that hard, you're just going to balloon it in the air. 

 He scoffs.. hits it thin and left and is annoyed. He asks me what I'm going to hit..I told him a flighted 6i. I hit it to 7 ft, made par. 

 

Next tee, par 4, he's grumbling on the tee that he knows what clubs to hit. So hits a nice drive, has 85 yds left..Comes up short. Why? Used a LW 🤦‍♂️

 

Par 3 9th, all water. 140 to clear the water, 150 to the pin. "PW!" He says. Well now he's aggravated me and I never do these sorts of things, but I just blurt out "I've got 10$ cash in my back pocket, you clear the water with your PW, it's yours." I tee off first, hit a 6i and damn near aced it. 

 

He hits his shot, the moment I see the apex I start walking to the cart and all I hear is the sound of a ball hitting water. 🤣 He didn't really say much the rest of the round.

 

[Hankshank]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:55 AM, golfer07840 said:

That's his answer/response, everytime. My argument is, sure it's their job, but they got the job because they were incredibly talented to begin with. 

Its a lot in this. I’m a frequent ”its their job” sayer. And people find me a killjoy. But I do have respect for all professionals. People get incredibly good at what they do nine to five. Including low profile jobs. And people will if possible seek careers where they did reasonably well in school or where they had a talent. 
 

Now, thats a big difference btw growing up in a daytime workers habitat and in the semi-posh neighborhood where dads and mums including me an missus are academics, kids here will twist their brains inside out to find out what their talents are and what they want to do with their lives. While we guys who did better in school than on the ice hockey rink or in the garage all became some kind of engineers… sure, a talent was appreciated there too, but a job well done wasnt cat sh*t either.

[KennyP]

5 hours ago, MUNIGRIT said:

A good thread would be who is the golfer who got the most out of his game woth the least amount put in? I think I named the winner earlier but there has to be similar type of players 

 

Pros who don't practice much will still have hit hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of balls getting their game to where it is. The idea that Lietzke, Daly or Carlos Franco just picked up a club and hit it great first time is ludicrous.

 

 

[Short Pete]

3 hours ago, KennyP said:

 

Pros who don't practice much will still have hit hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of balls getting their game to where it is. The idea that Lietzke, Daly or Carlos Franco just picked up a club and hit it great first time is ludicrous.

 

 

This!

 

They all played and played and played when they were younger. In the Seventies and Eighties you could get away with a low maintenance swing because the fitness level was different from today. The stress on the body playing pro golf is huge. These guys are all athletes, you have to have talent, work ethics and a good head on your shoulders. And the overall level of play is so much better than 30 years ago. A John Daly with his erratic play wouldn’t keep his card, though he might be the dude with the most raw talent in the field. 
 

 

[Anser]

I grew up with a guy who ended up spending several years on tour.  In HS we were pretty equal despite me being 6" taller, stronger and more athletic than him and definitely more athletic than Urkel Woods who lifted some weights and got jacked but otherwise was very much not an athlete.  There is no evidence he could do anything else at a high level.  He's the ultimate example of what Hogan agreed to "If you work harder than everyone else, you become the best"  

 

Near the end of HS I was burned out but he kept going, hard.  I'd never see him at parties etc.  He spent every waking moment because he never burned out no matter how much time he spent.  He was a 5'7 hit driver 265 guy who won 3 million dollars playing golf.  There is nothing else in sports he could have done that with lol   

 

I do believe in innate ability for some things.  In 8th grade I could dunk a basketball at 6'3.  I could sort of just always jump higher than my peers.  I don't believe that helped me have any advantage in golf.  I've just never seen anyone pick up a club and be on plane and understand why the ball went right or left without spending time learning those things.  

 

 

 

 

[mbb86]

9 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

You give any average mildly athletic guy their lifestyle and they will qualify for any mini tour. Just met Harry Higgs today and he would agree with that.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "qualify for a mini tour", but if you mean Canadian/KFT, you are unequivocally 100% wrong. 

 

Anyone who has ever been a competitive athlete at any reasonably high level, let alone one that has played golf at a reasonably high level, would ever say this. 

 

Let's start with the ridiculous assumption that any athletic guy with some resources could become a +4 (which as roughly a +2, I can assure you is not even remotely accurate). The gap between hitting the ball like a +4 handicap on the driving range, in your casual weekend group on the course, and repeatably on command in a tournament where you have to execute for your livelihood is the size of the Pacific Ocean. Plenty of people fall apart just being on a course vs the range. Another huge slice of them fall apart on the first tee of any competitive round. And another huge slice are fine on the first tee of a tournament and fall apart down the stretch. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by mbb86

[mbb86]

I think this thread has figured it out that the top ~100 players in the world are mostly top 1% in talent, top 1% in physical gifts (height, flexibility, not prone to injuries, etc.) and the top 1% in working hard. With a few exceptions like John Daly that are truly generational (or multi-generational) talents that are prolific enough in one area that it doesn't matter. 

 

Things like Rory knowing how far he hit it just based on the contact is less impressive than it sounds. As a reasonably high level amateur, I can certainly tell you +- 3 yards within any iron based off the contact feeling, and +- 10 yards with a wood. The biggest difference I notice between myself and a single digit handicap is when we go to look for a ball in the rough, I know where it is just based on the feel of the shot. The average good single digit (~5 handicap) has no f****** clue half the time. 

 

A top 10 player in the world that practices 10x as much as me (or more) will be even better at that, so I'm not surprised. 

[golfer07840]

1 hour ago, mbb86 said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "qualify for a mini tour", but if you mean Canadian/KFT, you are unequivocally 100% wrong. 

 

Anyone who has ever been a competitive athlete at any reasonably high level, let alone one that has played golf at a reasonably high level, would ever say this. 

 

Let's start with the ridiculous assumption that any athletic guy with some resources could become a +4 (which as roughly a +2, I can assure you is not even remotely accurate). The gap between hitting the ball like a +4 handicap on the driving range, in your casual weekend group on the course, and repeatably on command in a tournament where you have to execute for your livelihood is the size of the Pacific Ocean. Plenty of people fall apart just being on a course vs the range. Another huge slice of them fall apart on the first tee of any competitive round. And another huge slice are fine on the first tee of a tournament and fall apart down the stretch. 

I can prove that theory wrong: 

 

Go read a book by Tom Coyne called "Paper Tiger" He's a pretty good golfer, single digits, in fact. He's 6'3 so he has speed/distance already but in. For the book, he actually moved to Florida from Philadelphia for 1 year to accomplish 1 thing: Get a Tour card. He practiced everyday, had a top notch golf coach in Dr Jim Suttie. After 1 year he was able to pass the PGA players test to get a PGA teaching card. He couldn't sniff any major tour. 

 

It's an excellent read; this is also the epitomy of hard work and dedicating yourself to the craft. 

 

Point being, you need talent above anything else to make it there far. You will never convince me otherwise that anyone can make it with just hard work. We aren't talking getting to scratch from 10. We are talking a Tour that has golfers whose handicap averages, what? +6?  

[khalespace]

On 5/18/2023 at 5:30 AM, bladehunter said:

The only other one I can think of is Bubba in his prime … he’s on record as saying he didn’t really practice. Just played. 
 

most are who they are from work ethic. The brian harmons and Kevin kisners lr the world aren’t gifted freaks in any category.  Except maybe golf cart jumping and or trash talking.  

Just because they are small doesn't mean Brian Harmon isn't gifted with extremely good hand eye coordination. Of course, he needs to work harder than DJ or Rahm.

[khalespace]

1 hour ago, Anser said:

I grew up with a guy who ended up spending several years on tour.  In HS we were pretty equal despite me being 6" taller, stronger and more athletic than him and definitely more athletic than Urkel Woods who lifted some weights and got jacked but otherwise was very much not an athlete.  There is no evidence he could do anything else at a high level.  He's the ultimate example of what Hogan agreed to "If you work harder than everyone else, you become the best"  

 

Near the end of HS I was burned out but he kept going, hard.  I'd never see him at parties etc.  He spent every waking moment because he never burned out no matter how much time he spent.  He was a 5'7 hit driver 265 guy who won 3 million dollars playing golf.  There is nothing else in sports he could have done that with lol   

 

I do believe in innate ability for some things.  In 8th grade I could dunk a basketball at 6'3.  I could sort of just always jump higher than my peers.  I don't believe that helped me have any advantage in golf.  I've just never seen anyone pick up a club and be on plane and understand why the ball went right or left without spending time learning those things.  

 

 

 

 

I believe height is an advantage in golf. Statistically, there should as many 5'7" guys as there are 6'1" guys. However, you see way more 6'1" guys on Tour than 5'7" guys. I think the optimal golf height is around 6' tall.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, khalespace said:

Just because they are small doesn't mean Brian Harmon isn't gifted with extremely good hand eye coordination. Of course, he needs to work harder than DJ or Rahm.

Sure. He’s probably a good ping pong player. But.  So are tons of more powerful , bigger players. And they never make it.  So the difference 

maker has to be the routine. The opportunity they have at start of life , and most important -or the thing that can overcome the first two , the mental acuity  to both preserve and to make good decisions on course.  

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, khalespace said:

I believe height is an advantage in golf. Statistically, there should as many 5'7" guys as there are 6'1" guys. However, you see way more 6'1" guys on Tour than 5'7" guys. I think the optimal golf height is around 6' tall.

There's a thread over in the LPGA section from a few years back where a Vegas regular breaks it down and it's somewhere around there. 6'2 appeared to be optimal for men and something like 5'6 for women IIRC. It's an interesting read. 

[KennyP]

3 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

I can prove that theory wrong: 

 

Go read a book by Tom Coyne called "Paper Tiger" He's a pretty good golfer, single digits, in fact. He's 6'3 so he has speed/distance already but in. For the book, he actually moved to Florida from Philadelphia for 1 year to accomplish 1 thing: Get a Tour card. He practiced everyday, had a top notch golf coach in Dr Jim Suttie. After 1 year he was able to pass the PGA players test to get a PGA teaching card. He couldn't sniff any major tour. 

 

It's an excellent read; this is also the epitomy of hard work and dedicating yourself to the craft. 

 

Point being, you need talent above anything else to make it there far. You will never convince me otherwise that anyone can make it with just hard work. We aren't talking getting to scratch from 10. We are talking a Tour that has golfers whose handicap averages, what? +6?  

 

 If you've got the ability but lack the discipline, you severely limit your chances of making it. If you've got the discipline but lack the ability, you have no f***ing chance, no matter what you do.

 

 

I was disappointed with Paper Tiger; as you rightly say he never gets a sniff. It's not like he just misses. He never reaches first base. Reminds me of a number of golf YouTubers; failure after failure; excuse after excuse.

[betarhoalphadelta]

7 hours ago, mbb86 said:

 

Things like Rory knowing how far he hit it just based on the contact is less impressive than it sounds. As a reasonably high level amateur, I can certainly tell you +- 3 yards within any iron based off the contact feeling, and +- 10 yards with a wood. The biggest difference I notice between myself and a single digit handicap is when we go to look for a ball in the rough, I know where it is just based on the feel of the shot. The average good single digit (~5 handicap) has no f****** clue half the time. 

 

 

Yeah, and if you look at pros, the second the ball leaves the club they're saying "GET UP" or "SIT" because they know as soon as they strike it whether it's got the distance. 

 

Hell, I'm a 20-cap and I know based just on feel and sound when it's not center contact (usually toe for my miss). Playing partners see it dead on line but I know without even glancing at ballflight it's going to fall short. 

 

4 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

There's a thread over in the LPGA section from a few years back where a Vegas regular breaks it down and it's somewhere around there. 6'2 appeared to be optimal for men and something like 5'6 for women IIRC. It's an interesting read. 

 

Yeah, and I'm in the area of diminishing returns for men at 6'5".

 

Taller should lead to more speed and power, but it also leads to less ability to find the center because the levers are longer. Just as being 2.5* off line on a 310 yard drive is more likely to find the rough than being 2.5* off line on a 250 yard drive. Being the same *proportion* off center contact will be farther from the sweet spot if your arms are 3" longer and your shaft is 1" longer than someone shorter. So you may have the same baseline "accuracy" in your swing, but you'll be more penalized for mishits because the longer levers mean you're actually farther off the sweet spot. 

 

It also leads to fitment issues due to equipment design being biased towards normal-sized people. 

[TexasTurf]

11 hours ago, golfer07840 said:

I can prove that theory wrong: 

 

Go read a book by Tom Coyne called "Paper Tiger" He's a pretty good golfer, single digits, in fact. He's 6'3 so he has speed/distance already but in. For the book, he actually moved to Florida from Philadelphia for 1 year to accomplish 1 thing: Get a Tour card. He practiced everyday, had a top notch golf coach in Dr Jim Suttie. After 1 year he was able to pass the PGA players test to get a PGA teaching card. He couldn't sniff any major tour. 

 

It's an excellent read; this is also the epitomy of hard work and dedicating yourself to the craft. 

 

Point being, you need talent above anything else to make it there far. You will never convince me otherwise that anyone can make it with just hard work. We aren't talking getting to scratch from 10. We are talking a Tour that has golfers whose handicap averages, what? +6?  

 

Not going to change my opinion based on this silver spoon fed Notre Dame guy who has won awards for best fiction writing. And obviously can't play very well.

[Valtiel]

On 5/18/2023 at 8:56 PM, TexasTurf said:

You give any average mildly athletic guy their lifestyle and they will qualify for any mini tour. Just met Harry Higgs today and he would agree with that.

I'd be shocked if Higgs agreed with that, lol. This "mildly athletic guy" would have to have already been playing golf his whole life and have a decent amount of natural talent to even have a chance. If you're suggesting that someone with NO golf background could just pick up the game and make it to mini tour level with just a pro's "lifestyle", which I assume to mean resources, then no. Plus handicaps represent 1% of the golfing population, and mini tour players are a fraction of that 1%. If anyone with just the right resources could get to that skinny end of the bell curve then we'd see a lot more rich boys out there. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

There's plenty of gifted pro athletes with money and time that love golf, play a lot and yet would struggle get much below an upper to mid single digit index.

Edited May 20, 2023 by BlackDiamondPar5

[nitram]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:30 AM, bladehunter said:

The only other one I can think of is Bubba in his prime … he’s on record as saying he didn’t really practice. Just played. 
 

most are who they are from work ethic. The brian harmons and Kevin kisners lr the world aren’t gifted freaks in any category.  Except maybe golf cart jumping and or trash talking.  

 

I'll add the late Bruce Lietzke to the conversation.

[MUNIGRIT]

What happened to the guy who was applying the 10k hour rule to a pga tour pro/whatever the goal was? I think it was called Dan's plan or the Dan plan? There is a pod called chasing scratch too which I only listened to a few before it was obvious it probably wasn't happening. 

[Anser3]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:55 PM, golfer07840 said:

So often times I'll point something great out that a Pro does to a buddy of mine. For example the Taylor Made video circulating of Rory guessing his yardages after he hits it, within a yard. I send it to him and his response? "Of course he's good, it's his job " 

 

That's his answer/response, everytime. My argument is, sure it's their job, but they got the job because they were incredibly talented to begin with. 

 

This could be an egg/chicken thing, but I'll stand by the fact they are talented, which got them there. You just don't roll out of bed one day and decide "I'm going to be a Tour pro" and just go do it (there are outliers, I'm sure). 

 

Thoughts on this ludicrous "debate"? *

 

*Yes I know this silly, but I'm genuinely curious. 

 

 

It's their job because they are good at it.  They can get better over time and better able to pinpoint exact yardages, etc but they play a game for a living because they are great at it.  Otherwise, more people would be able to do it.

 

  Brooks Koepka has said he likes baseball better than golf.  He is better at golf  (world class) and plays it for a living.  He can't say that about baseball.   

 

Former Redskins/Raiders QB Jay Schroeder said on several occasions baseball was first love and his greatest love in sports.  He just happened to be better at football.  He was good enough to play football at the highest level and make a career of it.  He was good enough to play professional baseball but likely would have languished at the AA-AAA level his entire baseball career with possible short stints in the Majors.  He made his living playing football, not baseball. 

[golfer07840]

13 hours ago, TexasTurf said:

 

Not going to change my opinion based on this silver spoon fed Notre Dame guy who has won awards for best fiction writing. And obviously can't play very well.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by golfer07840