When Does a Depression Become a Hole? (and Other Hypotheticals)

[iacas]

Some hypotheticals for y'all, since so many seem to enjoy these…

 

• If the superintendent drops a sledgehammer onto some soft turf while driving in some posts around a tree beside the 12th fairway, and your ball finds that spot and sits 1/3 of the way below the level of the ground in the depression made by the sledgehammer, is it a "hole"? What if it's a few dimples down? 1/2 the ball? Do you have to have seen the superintendent drop the sledgehammer to call it a "hole made by maintenance staff"? What if he told you "yeah, I was using a sledgehammer to drive some spikes in by that tree on  12"? Does a hole created accidentally count?
• Does a heavy superintendent making footprints in a soft area of the course make a new "hole" with each step? Let's say he's maintaining the course while walking around making these deep footprints.
• Who is or isn't a member of "maintenance staff"? Is the head pro? What constitutes setting up or maintaining the course?
• Let's imagine we have a storm grate that's recessed slightly into the ground. How far recessed does the grate have to be to be in a "hole"? What if the ground immediately around it, while still grassed, slopes downward quite a bit? How much is quite a bit, and at what angle does it become a "slope" and not part of the "hole"? (90° would have to be a "hole" I imagine most would say, while 1° is not — so at what point does the slope become sufficient to warrant calling it a "hole")?
• How close does one have to be to be considered to "interfere" with? We know "mental interference" isn't really a thing - a sprinkler head at ground level and four feet ahead of your ball on your line of play is not going to interfere with your swing, but what if you think you're surely going to get within an inch of it at least? Two inches? Half an inch?

 

What similar hypotheticals can you come up with?

[sui generis]

Stick with what you're  good at. 😉

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Stick with what you're  good at. 😉

 

Like you, I can be good at multiple things. You couldn't even answer one? Okey dokey.

[Colin L]

That's mostly silly and not worth answering in detail.   For a hole to  be GUR, it  has to have been deliberately made in the process of work done to the course whether creating something or maintaining something on the course not by somebody's size elevens leaving footprints.  Maybe return to the Definition?  And add on the example of the hole on a double green when it is not the one for the hole you are playing.  

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Some hypotheticals for y'all, since so many seem to enjoy these…

 

• If the superintendent drops a sledgehammer onto some soft turf while driving in some posts around a tree beside the 12th fairway, and your ball finds that spot and sits 1/3 of the way below the level of the ground in the depression made by the sledgehammer, is it a "hole"? What if it's a few dimples down? 1/2 the ball? Do you have to have seen the superintendent drop the sledgehammer to call it a "hole made by maintenance staff"? What if he told you "yeah, I was using a sledgehammer to drive some spikes in by that tree on  12"? Does a hole created accidentally count?
• Does a heavy superintendent making footprints in a soft area of the course make a new "hole" with each step? Let's say he's maintaining the course while walking around making these deep footprints.
• Who is or isn't a member of "maintenance staff"? Is the head pro? What constitutes setting up or maintaining the course?
• Let's imagine we have a storm grate that's recessed slightly into the ground. How far recessed does the grate have to be to be in a "hole"? What if the ground immediately around it, while still grassed, slopes downward quite a bit? How much is quite a bit, and at what angle does it become a "slope" and not part of the "hole"? (90° would have to be a "hole" I imagine most would say, while 1° is not — so at what point does the slope become sufficient to warrant calling it a "hole")?
• How close does one have to be to be considered to "interfere" with? We know "mental interference" isn't really a thing - a sprinkler head at ground level and four feet ahead of your ball on your line of play is not going to interfere with your swing, but what if you think you're surely going to get within an inch of it at least? Two inches? Half an inch?

 

What similar hypotheticals can you come up with?

 

You said you know the Rules really well. So why do you ask all these questions as they are easily answered?

 

Oh, you also said you do not care for hypotheticals. Not a man of your word..? 

 

I believe Colin nailed it, as did Sui.

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

For a hole to  be GUR, it  has to have been deliberately made in the process of work done to the course whether creating something or maintaining something on the course not by somebody's size elevens leaving footprints.

 

Where is the word "deliberate" in the Rules? The definition says any hole made by maintenance staff in maintaining the course. In the example I gave above, a member of the maintenance staff is maintaining the course when he makes what might be described as "holes."

 

6 hours ago, Colin L said:

not by somebody's size elevens leaving footprints. Maybe return to the Definition?

 

I did. So, how is a superintendent making holes while maintaining the course not meet the definition?

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

You said you know the Rules really well. So why do you ask all these questions as they are easily answered?

 

Then please, by all means, flex on me and answer them all definitively.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Oh, you also said you do not care for hypotheticals. Not a man of your word..?

 

I didn't care for hypotheticals in that topic, because we had a very real and direct situation, with a photo. So, I put the hypotheticals over here.

[sui generis]

Some good advive about holes is, when you find yourself in one . . . stop digging.

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, sui generis said:

Some good advive about holes is, when you find yourself in one . . . stop digging.

 

I'm not in a hole, as I'm not a member of the maintenance staff in maintaining the course. I am, however, facing a number of immovable obstructions (who won't answer the questions in the first post).

 

🤣

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by iacas

[Colin L]

Are you seriously suggesting that you would allow a player relief from a footprint?

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

Are you seriously suggesting that you would allow a player relief from a footprint?

 

Not to mention how to distinguish a footprint created by a maintenance staff from all other footprints?

 

Cannot wait to see the answer...

[Mr. Bean]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Then please, by all means, flex on me and answer them all definitively.

 

 

Why bother? Even when you are given the right answers you refuse to accept them. Some referee.

[antip]

15 hours ago, Colin L said:

That's mostly silly and not worth answering in detail.   For a hole to  be GUR, it  has to have been deliberately made in the process of work done to the course whether creating something or maintaining something on the course not by somebody's size elevens leaving footprints.  Maybe return to the Definition?  And add on the example of the hole on a double green when it is not the one for the hole you are playing.  

Significant agreement from me (including on footprints), but I have some minor nuance to float. While I agree that, generally, the GUR definition covers greenkeeper damage (such as a hole) that results from intentional actions, I don't think a hole made unintentionally ALWAYS precludes it from being GUR. For example, the greenkeeper is cruising across the fairway in the ute with the mower in the back, rear gate is insecure and in going over a bump it opens and the mower falls out, gouging the ground. I'm calling that hole GUR - I see this sort of non-trivial, one-off example as significantly different from the general guidance on 'rut made by tractor' (no relief unless Committee blessed). (I would also like to think the greenkeeper had the necessary smarts to immediately get out the white paint can and mark the damage but, sadly, I don't see that demonstrated often.)

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Colin L said:

Are you seriously suggesting that you would allow a player relief from a footprint?

I’m not suggesting anything.

 

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Why bother?

Better to just continue with the ad hominem attacks I guess?

 

2 hours ago, antip said:

For example, the greenkeeper is cruising across the fairway in the ute with the mower in the back, rear gate is insecure and in going over a bump it opens and the mower falls out, gouging the ground. I'm calling that hole GUR - I see this sort of non-trivial, one-off example as significantly different from the general guidance on 'rut made by tractor' (no relief unless Committee blessed). (I would also like to think the greenkeeper had the necessary smarts to immediately get out the white paint can and mark the damage but, sadly, I don't see that demonstrated often.)

 

Thanks for answering a little piece of the questions and putting your opinion out there a bit.

 

How does a player know if a member of maintenance staff made the gouge? Was driving around “maintaining the course”? How deep does that gouge need to be to count as a hole? Does the ground have to be broken to count as a “gouge”?

[antip]

26 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Thanks for answering a little piece of the questions and putting your opinion out there a bit.

 

How does a player know if a member of maintenance staff made the gouge? Was driving around “maintaining the course”? How deep does that gouge need to be to count as a hole? Does the ground have to be broken to count as a “gouge”?

My answers, respectively: they may not know; they may not know; if you can show me the specific hole I'll offer a view (but that isn't going to happen); probably not.

RBs have decided not to define a "hole" for these purposes and have not attempted to pre-determine answers to the sort of minutia that you have invited everyone else here to offer specific solutions to. I think that is wise, a laudable model.

So how does the player resolve these issues? The short answer is they don't need to. The stroke play player is protected by 20.1c(3). If confronted with the minutia you asking about and uncertain on how to proceed, the player should play two balls and place the decision making where it belongs - on the Committee. In a match, the opponents can resolve things themselves, or seek a ruling.

Do you think that RBs should be providing further guidance on the questions that you have posed?

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, antip said:

Do you think that RBs should be providing further guidance on the questions that you have posed?

 

Not necessarily, and TBH, I haven't gotten that far. There are parts of the Rules of Golf that are always going to be somewhat subjective, and I'm trying to get at some of those somewhat related to the other discussion in asking these questions.

 

How does everyone define these things? If you (or anyone else) were the Committee or the RO tasked with making those decisions in the OP in those moments… where would you/they fall on the spectrum of decisions? "How big does a depression have to be before it's considered a 'hole'?" Who is a member of the "maintenance staff"? Etc.

 

But again, thank you for at least saying something and putting something out there.

Edited May 22, 2023 by iacas

[antip]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Not necessarily, and TBH, I haven't gotten that far. There are parts of the Rules of Golf that are always going to be somewhat subjective, and I'm trying to get at some of those somewhat related to the other discussion in asking these questions.

 

How does everyone define these things? If you (or anyone else) were the Committee or the RO tasked with making those decisions in the OP in those moments… where would you/they fall on the spectrum of decisions? "How big does a depression have to be before it's considered a 'hole'?" Who is a member of the "maintenance staff"? Etc.

 

But again, thank you for at least saying something and putting something out there.

I agree that some issues, unavoidably, are subjective. The Rules seek to minimise that but there's only so much that can be done. Depth of the hole/damage is, IMO, definitely one of those.

Most commonly, when I'm the referee/Committee, I'm empowered to make a call on GUR. And if I think it justified, out comes the white paint. I don't actually care or want to know if it was the maintenance staff or some looney kid flipping their scooter and damaging the middle of the fairway - it was clearly not intended to be part of the challenge of playing the course so players should not be exposed to that. 

But generally, there's no 'one size fits all' answer.

[SNIPERBBB]

Deer tracks, or other large animal tracks depending on the part of the world you're in, on the green? Though that rule already exists. 

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, antip said:

 For example, the greenkeeper is cruising across the fairway in the ute with the mower in the back, rear gate is insecure and in going over a bump it opens and the mower falls out, gouging the ground. I'm calling that hole GUR - I see this sort of non-trivial, one-off example as significantly different from the general guidance on 'rut made by tractor' (no relief unless Committee blessed). (I would also like to think the greenkeeper had the necessary smarts to immediately get out the white paint can and mark the damage but, sadly, I don't see that demonstrated often.)

 

Without a Local Rule in effect that kind of damage would not automatically be GUR in my eyes. However, in a competition a referee would most likely declare that as GUR when challenged.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

How does everyone define these things? If you (or anyone else) were the Committee or the RO tasked with making those decisions in the OP in those moments… where would you/they fall on the spectrum of decisions? "How big does a depression have to be before it's considered a 'hole'?" Who is a member of the "maintenance staff"? Etc.

 

Around here on the national level competitions (and hopefully in very many others as well...) holes made by the maintenance staff are limited to those made on purpose. Accidentally created damages type of "deep rut made by tractor" are covered by a Local Rule.

 

Afa the depth of a "depression" is concerned we have a rule of thumb: "If the depression is more than half a ball deep, relief is granted". This applies to aot rup made by a maintenance vehicle and canyons in bunkers created by rain.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Deer tracks, or other large animal tracks depending on the part of the world you're in, on the green? Though that rule already exists. 

 

From the top of my head there is no Rule granting relief unless those tracks are declared as GUR in LR's. Rule 13.1c allows repair of such tracks but there is no relief.

[Colin L]

A passing thought as I stood beside our 4th green and looked down on a well sunken sprinkler head.  As with much else in golf, seeing for real what was being talked about on an internet forum makes you realise that the old adage I'll know one when I see one has a good deal of truth in it.  I looked at it thought briefly of this thread and wondered,  "What was all that about, then?."

 

 And I remembered that last season I gave a player relief from the hole that a drain was sunk into.  It looked like a hole; it sat there with the drain cover open to the sky in a hole-like sort of way.   And here's why it was a hole and not just a depression:  the surface of the ground had been broken into. .  Does that not help characterise a hole?

Edited May 22, 2023 by Colin L

[Mr. Bean]

33 minutes ago, Colin L said:

A passing thought as I stood beside our 4th green and looked down on a well sunken sprinkler head.  As with much else in golf, seeing for real what was being talked about on an internet forum makes you realise that the old adage I'll know one when I see one has a good deal of truth in it.  I looked at it thought briefly of this thread and wondered,  "What was all that about, then?."

 

 And I remembered that last season I gave a player relief from the hole that a drain was sunk into.  It looked like a hole; it sat there with the drain cover open to the sky in a hole-like sort of way.   And here's why it was a hole and not just a depression:  the surface of the ground had been broken into. .  Does that not help characterise a hole?

 

But, you did not include "deliberately" 🤣

 

Colin, I believe this is a battle we cannot win. As already proven.

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Mr. Bean

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Colin, I believe this is a battle we cannot win.

 

What is "winning"? It's a discussion, and one on which not everyone will agree. Much of this is opinion. Subjective. This isn't some sort of "competition."

 

@Colin L seems to think that the ground must be "broken" to constitute a "hole," but I could probably show him a "hole" with unbroken ground. You think the holes must be made "on purpose" but didn't share how someone is supposed to determine whether a hole was made intentionally or even by a member of the maintenance staff. You yourself said a depression being half a ball warranted relief as a rule of thumb… but how steep do the sides of this "depression" have to be? What if they're grass-covered - does that conflict with @Colin L and his "broken-ground" idea?

 

The point, if there was one… there are still a lot of subjective areas of the rules, and even rules officials will occasionally disagree or give a slightly different ruling based on how they see something.

[Colin L]

Perhaps it would be better to say that a hole is where the surface of the ground has been opened up and some material moved to form  a cavity.   That could be caused by natural forces, animals other than humans, or  humans - these distinctions being important in terms of what you are allowed to do under Rules if there is interference.    A further distinction in the human category is whether the hole is made purposefully or accidentally and by whom.  

 

By the way, it was someone else who referred to a depression half a ball deep and I think it was in the context of defining what constitutes a "deep rut" for the purposes of a local rule - which is another story.

 

So far, I can't say I've had any difficulty in practice in identifying what is and what isn't a hole.  One difficulty used to be deciding whether one was made by a burrowing animal which at least has been modified a bit although still leaving the question of whether made by an animal.  And quite honestly I've never have had nor would anticipate difficulty in recognising a "hole made by a greenkeeper".  Now there's hostage to fortune. 😳

Edited May 23, 2023 by Colin L

[Schulzmc]

SO if our Super is out playing a round of golf and leaves an unfilled divot in the middle of the fairway, do I FINALLY get free relief if my ball ends up in that divot in the fairway because it is a hole made by the maintenance staff??!!

 

LOL - kidding of course. Still think that is the dumbest rule in golf.