Most likely score on a ball not searched for

[dugue4]

I was playing poorly and pace of play was slow, and I was considering leaving the course early.  When I hit my 4th shot into the par 4 14th right.  It was in an area where a ball could have been lost.  If I had chosen to leave (I ended up staying), would I need to have found the ball to be able to post a most likely score?

 

Side note - I played one more hole and posted net par for the holes not finished.

[iacas]

Your 4th shot on a par 4 missed the green in an area where it's likely lost.

 

I've had similar discussions before, and the two sides seem to be split beside whether it's a hole not played under the Rules of Golf and thus you take par+handicap (and thus you only truly played 13 holes if you had left after that hole…) or whether you are able to say "I'll take net double bogey as that's the best I could have reasonably scored anyway" or something.

 

I am in the latter camp — I think you can say your most likely score is an NDB (I'm assuming you get 0 or 1 stroke here, not two).

[nsxguy]

40 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

I was playing poorly and pace of play was slow, and I was considering leaving the course early.  When I hit my 4th shot into the par 4 14th right.  It was in an area where a ball could have been lost.  If I had chosen to leave (I ended up staying), would I need to have found the ball to be able to post a most likely score?

 

Side note - I played one more hole and posted net par for the holes not finished.

 

Most Likely Score

 

Holes required to post a score

[dugue4]

12 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Most Likely Score

 

Holes required to post a score

I understand that, I'm asking if choosing to not locate the ball means it would be a lost ball and would assume S&D then go most likely from previous spot, or go most likely from the area the ball would be located.

[Abh159]

1 hour ago, dugue4 said:

I understand that, I'm asking if choosing to not locate the ball means it would be a lost ball and would assume S&D then go most likely from previous spot, or go most likely from the area the ball would be located.

 

If you didn't look for it then you've "abandoned" the ball. Therefore, you'd be playing your 6th shot from the previous spot using stroke and distance.

 

FWIW, I think if you had decided to leave (after searching for the original ball or not) then you'd post net double bogey like the previous posted suggested.

 

You said you hit it into an area where it was likely to be lost so I'm assuming water, tall grass, trees, or something like that. Even if you had found the ball it seems highly unlikely that you would have gotten it up and down from that spot for a 6 so NDB makes the most sense regardless of whether or not the ball was lost. 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Abh159

[dugue4]

FWIW, I never said likely, i did say "could have been lost"

 

Also, if running up against NDB is clouding the issue, What if I hadn't gone OB on the tee shot and that was my 2nd shot off to the right of the green?

Edited May 22, 2023 by dugue4

[QEight]

Post NDB and be done with it. No need to worry about random "most likely score".

[nsxguy]

51 minutes ago, dugue4 said:

I understand that, I'm asking if choosing to not locate the ball means it would be a lost ball and would assume S&D then go most likely from previous spot, or go most likely from the area the ball would be located.

 

It is up to you.

 

What would you have done to complete the hole ?

 

You are not required by the ROG to look for your ball. Would you have bothered looking for it and just taken S&D ? Or gone looking for it ? You certainly could've hit a provisional and continued on and completed the hole.

 

For all intents and purposes though, in most cases, incurring a 2 stroke penalty for the lost ball would most likely incur a net double bogey MAX score for the hole anyway for handicap posting purposes.

 

And given you weren't playing very well the only effect posting the round would have on your handicap is bumping the 20th score OUT of your last 20 - highly unlikely it would've gotten into your best 8.

 

[golfinbrad]

Is this what you are asking?  USGA says double bogey + any handicap strokes you are receiving on that hole.  So if you are a 9 handicap, and you walked about from the 6th handicap hole, you would post a triple.  Or at least that is my interpretation.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/world-handicap-system/world-handicap-system-usga-golf-faqs/faqs---what-is-the-maximum-hole-score-.html

[Augster]

When you don’t finish a hole you post MLS or NDB, whichever is lower. 
 

In your case it’s most certainly NDB. 

[rogolf]

Pick it up, net double bogey for handicap purposes and move on. 
We call it “bipli”, ball in pocket, lost interest. 

[DaveLeeNC]

49 minutes ago, Augster said:

When you don’t finish a hole you post MLS or NDB, whichever is lower. 
 

In your case it’s most certainly NDB. 

 

I used to think that it was that simple. But some years back (based on a discussion here in this forum) I emailed a question to the USGA Handicap folks with the following two scenarios. 

 

1) On a par 4 a player hits 2 balls OB off the tee and abandons the hole hitting no more shots until the next tee.  

 

2) The player hits 2 balls OB off the tee and proceeds to where the last ball went OB and plays out the hole from that point. 

 

The question was 'does the player post his (ESC limited) most likely score in both cases starting with his 5th shot off the tee. And the answer was MLS in case #1 and par plus strokes in case #2 (because it is a hole not played under the Rules of Golf). So basically you can (for posting purposes) nullify your bad score at pretty much any point in the hole by changing what you are doing and not playing by the Rules of Golf, although I am not sure that I know exactly what that means. Certainly abandoning a hole is not playing by the Rules of Golf but MLS is the right answer in that case. Playing out the hole from near where the ball went OB is either practicing on the course or playing from the wrong place - both of which are defined in the Rules of Golf. But strokes plus par was the response. I like to call it the 'double OB nullification rule". 

 

That response surprised me. 

 

dave

[rogolf]

I wonder if the answer would be the same now, or if the answer was based on the player not having a ball in play on the hole?

[DaveLeeNC]

1 minute ago, rogolf said:

I wonder if the answer would be the same now, or if the answer was based on the player not having a ball in play on the hole?

 

I just don't know - the 'ruling' surprised me and the only rationale given was that 'the hole was not played under the Rules of Golf' so par + strokes. As far as I was concerned neither scenario was played under the rules of golf, but the 'email in a question' procedure does not lend itself to more detailed discussions. 

 

dave

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

The question was 'does the player post his (ESC limited) most likely score in both cases starting with his 5th shot off the tee. And the answer was MLS in case #1 and par plus strokes in case #2 (because it is a hole not played under the Rules of Golf).

 

That's basically what I was hinting at above.

 

10 hours ago, iacas said:

I've had similar discussions before, and the two sides seem to be split beside whether it's a hole not played under the Rules of Golf and thus you take par+handicap (and thus you only truly played 13 holes if you had left after that hole…) or whether you are able to say "I'll take net double bogey as that's the best I could have reasonably scored anyway" or something.

 

I've never really been on that side of things. You played enough of the hole to know you weren't going to make par+handicap.

[DaveLeeNC]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

That's basically what I was hinting at above.

 Yeah - I probably should have double quoted that and included your comment, but I am lazy 🙂

 

dave

[iacas]

1 minute ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 Yeah - I probably should have double quoted that and included your comment, but I am lazy 🙂

 

No worries.

[Augster]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

I used to think that it was that simple. But some years back (based on a discussion here in this forum) I emailed a question to the USGA Handicap folks with the following two scenarios. 

 

1) On a par 4 a player hits 2 balls OB off the tee and abandons the hole hitting no more shots until the next tee.  

 

2) The player hits 2 balls OB off the tee and proceeds to where the last ball went OB and plays out the hole from that point. 

 

The question was 'does the player post his (ESC limited) most likely score in both cases starting with his 5th shot off the tee. And the answer was MLS in case #1 and par plus strokes in case #2 (because it is a hole not played under the Rules of Golf). So basically you can (for posting purposes) nullify your bad score at pretty much any point in the hole by changing what you are doing and not playing by the Rules of Golf, although I am not sure that I know exactly what that means. Certainly abandoning a hole is not playing by the Rules of Golf but MLS is the right answer in that case. Playing out the hole from near where the ball went OB is either practicing on the course or playing from the wrong place - both of which are defined in the Rules of Golf. But strokes plus par was the response. I like to call it the 'double OB nullification rule". 

 

That response surprised me. 

 

dave

That’s the old system. Not WHS. 
 

They got rid of ESC. They also got rid of par-plus for holes played outside the ROG. 
 

What is left is MLS or NDB, whichever is less. 

[Newby]

Rule 3.3 from the USGA version of the WHS Manual.

 

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their most likely score or net double bogey, whichever is lower, as appropriate for
the situation and depending on the format of play.

 

Rule 3.3 from the CONGU version of the WHS Manual.

 

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.

Notes:
1. If the format of play does not allow a player to pick-up their ball before holing
out, for example an individual gross score or net score stroke play
competition, the player will be disqualified from the competition.
2. In a Maximum Score format of stroke play, there may be situations where a
player has not reached their net double bogey score before reaching the
maximum score as determined by the Terms of the Competition. In such
cases, the player should record either a net double bogey or zero Stableford
points (see Rules of Golf, Rule 21.2).

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, Augster said:

That’s the old system. Not WHS. 
 

They got rid of ESC. They also got rid of par-plus for holes played outside the ROG. 
 

What is left is MLS or NDB, whichever is less. 

 

To me they simply changed how ESC is calculated (and dropped the name). I did not realize that this whole 'not played under the Rules of Golf' thing is gone. So I assume that if you were playing a casual round and just decided to try out a Bandit SB (non-conforming) ball on a par 5 (only on that hole), that would now count as a 'hole not played' (par + strokes). And if you hit your drive using a conforming ball OB and THEN decided to try out that Bandit ball on your 2nd tee shot (through the end of the hole) then it is MLS + strokes (max NDB) starting with a 3rd shot off the tee (probably NDB but maybe not). It is kind of hard to read that in Rule 3.x of the USGA manual, but I assume that to be the case. Of course I assumed that to be the case under the old rules and I was wrong. 

 

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Rule 3.3 from the CONGU version of the WHS Manual.

 

When a player starts a hole but does not hole out for a valid reason, subject to
other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping, the player must record
their score as appropriate for the situation and depending on the format of play,
for example, net double bogey or zero Stableford points.

Notes:
1. If the format of play does not allow a player to pick-up their ball before holing
out, for example an individual gross score or net score stroke play
competition, the player will be disqualified from the competition.
2. In a Maximum Score format of stroke play, there may be situations where a
player has not reached their net double bogey score before reaching the
maximum score as determined by the Terms of the Competition. In such
cases, the player should record either a net double bogey or zero Stableford
points (see Rules of Golf, Rule 21.2).

 

It is interesting how different the WHS is across various regions - thanks for pointing that out. 

 

dave

[Augster]

13 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

To me they simply changed how ESC is calculated (and dropped the name). I did not realize that this whole 'not played under the Rules of Golf' thing is gone. So I assume that if you were playing a casual round and just decided to try out a Bandit SB (non-conforming) ball on a par 5 (only on that hole), that would now count as a 'hole not played' (par + strokes). And if you hit your drive using a conforming ball OB and THEN decided to try out that Bandit ball on your 2nd tee shot (through the end of the hole) then it is MLS + strokes (max NDB) starting with a 3rd shot off the tee (probably NDB but maybe not). It is kind of hard to read that in Rule 3.x of the USGA manual, but I assume that to be the case. Of course I assumed that to be the case under the old rules and I was wrong. 

 

 

It is interesting how different the WHS is across various regions - thanks for pointing that out. 

 

dave

You would have to have a “valid reason” for not playing that hole by the rules. I don’t think intentionally using a non-conforming ball for one hole would be a “valid reason”. 
 

You shouldn’t post that round. At all. 
 

[DaveLeeNC]

3 minutes ago, Augster said:

You would have to have a “valid reason” for not playing that hole by the rules. I don’t think intentionally using a non-conforming ball for one hole would be a “valid reason”. 
 

You shouldn’t post that round. At all. 
 

 

That would not be my 'ruling' if I were asked to make one. But my track record of matching USGA 'rulings' is poor, so .....

 

dave