One Length Hybrids

[WVP]

Does anyone have any experience with one length hybrids? I may have stumbled onto something and wondering if anyone has had similar results.

 

I grabbed a 21 degree Cobra LTDx one length hybrid off the used rack last night and tried it out. Honestly it was a revelation how consistent it was as far as the distance and trajectory. So easy to make consistent contact with the shaft length. 

 

I'm now considering picking up a 24 degree LTD or Aerojet one length hybrid. Super tempting to have a simple, stress-free 190 to 200-yard shot. 

[bluedot]

I did it with Ping G30 hybrids.  It was an easy DIY because Ping doesn’t tip trim the stock shafts, and I was able to get after market head weights to make all of them identical except for loft.

 

If it was in any way beneficial, I couldn’t see it.  I didn’t hit the 3 hybrid better than before; nothing changed that I could quantify, and I was using Arrcos before and after, so I wasn’t just guessing.  No harm done, but no benefits that I could find.

 

When I switched to G410 hybrids, I got fitted with the Tensei Blue shaft, and I left them alone.

[WristySwing]

On 5/31/2023 at 3:19 PM, WVP said:

Does anyone have any experience with one length hybrids? I may have stumbled onto something and wondering if anyone has had similar results.

 

I grabbed a 21 degree Cobra LTDx one length hybrid off the used rack last night and tried it out. Honestly it was a revelation how consistent it was as far as the distance and trajectory. So easy to make consistent contact with the shaft length. 

 

I'm now considering picking up a 24 degree LTD or Aerojet one length hybrid. Super tempting to have a simple, stress-free 190 to 200-yard shot. 

 

An alternative to this might be the Mizuno JPX Fli-Hi hybrids.  They are iron length hybrids and come with iron shafts (so you could order with Recoil 95 or other lighter weight steel options).  Bonus is they cost the same as the irons as well.  If you are thinking about making it easy, that could be a cheap experiment.

[VA_Astra]

Ive been bagging one for a while now. I removed the stock KBS shaft, went with a Steelfiber FC 70 and added 1" to the length.

 

Making it 1" longer actually helped me hit it more consistent than stock length.

[mlwenzlick]

Not enough height, same as the long irons. If that aspect of physics could be turned over I think everyone would play OL.

[VA_Astra]

3 hours ago, mlwenzlick said:

Not enough height, same as the long irons. If that aspect of physics could be turned over I think everyone would play OL.

I dont agree with that. You cant hit it like a hybrid, hit it like a 7 iron and it has tons of height!

[mlwenzlick]

1 hour ago, VA_Astra said:

I dont agree with that. You cant hit it like a hybrid, hit it like a 7 iron and it has tons of height!

dont know what to tell you, it’s simple physics. bryson can do it better with his ss, but mortals (the target market) can’t elevate the long clubs. it’s pretty well documented.

[myspinonit]

I  got a used G410 stock shaft a year or so ago to try in my G410 5  hybrid to  try to get a bit more gap from my 6 iron.  And just maybe a couple more yards period for this senior swinger. I also have the 4H and had a Ping 4g weight to get the SW back to stock.

 

After going back to the stock setup early this season, I've gone back to the 5H shaft and 4g weight. It may just be in my head, but it does feel  a touch "soft-stepped" and goes straight and  a touch higher with  a nice smooth swing.

 

I've also have tried it with a stock 3W shaft in my Ping 5W a time or too (with and without headweight adjustments).  Same softer feel, and easy elevation, but it tended to go right and shorter.  My usual shape is straight or baby draw.

[ShakeyT]

I've been playing the OL F9 Hybrids since their release & I can't ever see myself going back to variable length hybrids. Once you figure out how to swing them, it is so much more consistent than longer shafted hybrids.

 

I think they work for me because I have a steep AoA, so I have zero problem getting launch. If you're a sweeper, I don't think they will work at all.

[jarediogolf]

I have a Radspeed OL 24* 5 hybrid. 
I liked it, but it’s not currently in the bag, my standard 5 iron won. 

Also have an F9 OL 4 iron. Again liked it, but did not win a spot in the bag, too darn upright. 

Sticking with a 5 wood, 7 wood in that area. 
 

That being said I can’t bring myself to get rid of either of these. If the lie angles were 7 iron lie angles… they might have stayed in the bag. 
 

At least with the rad speed hybrid, I found it really liked to be hit higher on the face and did not handle thin shot well at all. You really need to compress them, no sweeping. 

[cavemeister]

On 6/2/2023 at 9:09 AM, WristySwing said:

 

An alternative to this might be the Mizuno JPX Fli-Hi hybrids.  They are iron length hybrids and come with iron shafts (so you could order with Recoil 95 or other lighter weight steel options).  Bonus is they cost the same as the irons as well.  If you are thinking about making it easy, that could be a cheap experiment.

it says they have a draw bias?

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 6/10/2023 at 8:55 PM, mlwenzlick said:

dont know what to tell you, it’s simple physics. bryson can do it better with his ss, but mortals (the target market) can’t elevate the long clubs. it’s pretty well documented.

 

Eh. I'm a mere mortal (~100 mph driver SS) and I have no trouble elevating my OL set... 4h at 20*, 5i at 24*, and irons gapped 4* thereafter up to GW at 48*. 

 

Yeah, there can be a distance issue at the low lofts. My 4h at 20* and 37.5" length doesn't give me the distance that my old 3i at (unknown loft but gonna guess ~21*) and 40.5" length would give me. The swing speed is just lower. But I can actually hit the sweet spot a lot more often, so the results are better and I can *absolutely* elevate it. Getting 100' apex is achievable, even with my mortal swing speed.

 

But IMHO the goal of a set of irons/hybrids isn't more distance, but is consistency and gapping. 

 

I'd mention that a lot of the mortals I play with can't elevate the ball with any club... I hit a higher ball across the board than they do. I suspect it's their impact conditions, not the length of the club. 

[Drrussell]

On 6/10/2023 at 10:55 PM, mlwenzlick said:

dont know what to tell you, it’s simple physics. bryson can do it better with his ss, but mortals (the target market) can’t elevate the long clubs. it’s pretty well documented.

No that’s not really accurate. For sure you can run into a physics problem for every speed. The single length hybrids have different club profiles which definitely generate a higher ballflight than the irons. 

 

For the OP, I have experience with the single length hybrids, utility irons, and low lofted single length irons. They all have different flight patterns. 

 

If I am playing a course with thick rough, the OL hybrid goes in the bag. If the course is over 7000 yards, I also put the OL hybrid in the bag for the times where I might need the 220 carry with softer landing.  If I am playing a links style course, the OL hybrid is out and the 3 utility is in.

 

The reality is there is a physics problem with all golf clubs. That is to say for every ball speed you will have ideal launch angle, spin rate, descent angles to maximize carry. This is typically seen in carry distance gapping problems. So, once you get to the point where you see gapping problems, the easiest thing to do is to transition from an iron to the OL hybrid. You can do a ton more to address the gapping problems too, but it does take some work with proper fitting and club adjustments. 

 

Personally, I don’t like hitting hybrids so it’s kind of a specialty club for me and it’s a club I hope to never hit. But when the situation calls for it, it’s a good stick to have in the bag. If you struggle with low lofted irons it can be especially effective. 

[Drrussell]

On 6/14/2023 at 6:11 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Eh. I'm a mere mortal (~100 mph driver SS) and I have no trouble elevating my OL set... 4h at 20*, 5i at 24*, and irons gapped 4* thereafter up to GW at 48*. 

 

Yeah, there can be a distance issue at the low lofts. My 4h at 20* and 37.5" length doesn't give me the distance that my old 3i at (unknown loft but gonna guess ~21*) and 40.5" length would give me. The swing speed is just lower. But I can actually hit the sweet spot a lot more often, so the results are better and I can *absolutely* elevate it. Getting 100' apex is achievable, even with my mortal swing speed.

 

But IMHO the goal of a set of irons/hybrids isn't more distance, but is consistency and gapping. 

 

I'd mention that a lot of the mortals I play with can't elevate the ball with any club... I hit a higher ball across the board than they do. I suspect it's their impact conditions, not the length of the club. 

People always forget a variable and since we were talking physics, it’s equally important. When we say the swing speed is lower. That is true when compared to a club that is a couple inches longer. However, people always forget the single length club has more mass than the commensurate longer iron. 

 

A traditional variable length iron head, say a 3i has substantially less mass than a single length 3i. However, really to get proper carry distances the biggest problem is off the rack clubs have pretty much the exact same lofts as a traditional variable length club. The single length iron needs more tuning to address the gapping issues at the top of the bag. Depending on speed, loft may need to be stronger or weaker. That just comes down to math…but if you optimize launch conditions throughout the set you will find the gapping problem at the top largely disappear. Until you reach the point where the optimal flight conditions can’t be met. . .that’s when you switch to a hybrid, longer club, etc. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Drrussell

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 hours ago, Drrussell said:

People always forget a variable and since we were talking physics, it’s equally important. When we say the swing speed is lower. That is true when compared to a club that is a couple inches longer. However, people always forget the single length club has more mass than the commensurate longer iron. 

 

A traditional variable length iron head, say a 3i has substantially less mass than a single length 3i. However, really to get proper carry distances the biggest problem is off the rack clubs have pretty much the exact same lofts as a traditional variable length club. The single length iron needs more tuning to address the gapping issues at the top of the bag. Depending on speed, loft may need to be stronger or weaker. That just comes down to math…but if you optimize launch conditions throughout the set you will find the gapping problem at the top largely disappear. Until you reach the point where the optimal flight conditions can’t be met. . .that’s when you switch to a hybrid, longer club, etc. 

 

True. BTW I did a comparison between VL and SL irons here:

 

 

The goal was to look at two variables--kinetic energy and momentum.

• The variable length set I used in my example has *almost* perfectly consistent momentum across the set assuming PGAT swing speeds. As the length increases, the speed does too, but the heads get lighter, and it evens out. A single length set has *absolutely* consistent momentum across the set because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical. 
• However, for kinetic energy, it's the square of velocity. So as the VL set gets longer and the heads get lighter, the head is carrying more kinetic energy for the longer clubs. Whereas the SL set again has absolutely consistent kinetic energy because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical across the set. 

Tutelman says that speed is more important for distance than clubhead weight: https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/physics4.php

 

That leads me to believe that kinetic energy is the dominant factor, not momentum. Which is why, despite heavier head weights in a single length set, it's more common to find gapping issues at the low-lofted end of the set. 

 

As you point out, this is *not* an argument that the SL concept doesn't work. It's just that you are solving for a different issue (consistency) and that has effects on the ability to develop the necessary speed at the top of the bag. Which is why companies like Wishon don't even offer a SL 4i (only 4h), and recommend hybrids up to 6h for slower swing speeds. Also why you can't just throw a titanium head of the same weight on a driver, fit it to a shorter steel shaft and lie angle to match your irons, and hit it as far, developing optimal launch conditions, as you'll hit a lighter head at 45". You just can't develop the speed, no matter the head weight. 

 

[Drrussell]

8 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

True. BTW I did a comparison between VL and SL irons here:

 

 

The goal was to look at two variables--kinetic energy and momentum.

• The variable length set I used in my example has *almost* perfectly consistent momentum across the set assuming PGAT swing speeds. As the length increases, the speed does too, but the heads get lighter, and it evens out. A single length set has *absolutely* consistent momentum across the set because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical. 
• However, for kinetic energy, it's the square of velocity. So as the VL set gets longer and the heads get lighter, the head is carrying more kinetic energy for the longer clubs. Whereas the SL set again has absolutely consistent kinetic energy because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical across the set. 

Tutelman says that speed is more important for distance than clubhead weight: https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/physics4.php

 

That leads me to believe that kinetic energy is the dominant factor, not momentum. Which is why, despite heavier head weights in a single length set, it's more common to find gapping issues at the low-lofted end of the set. 

 

As you point out, this is *not* an argument that the SL concept doesn't work. It's just that you are solving for a different issue (consistency) and that has effects on the ability to develop the necessary speed at the top of the bag. Which is why companies like Wishon don't even offer a SL 4i (only 4h), and recommend hybrids up to 6h for slower swing speeds. Also why you can't just throw a titanium head of the same weight on a driver, fit it to a shorter steel shaft and lie angle to match your irons, and hit it as far, developing optimal launch conditions, as you'll hit a lighter head at 45". You just can't develop the speed, no matter the head weight. 

 

Everything you said makes perfect sense. I have experienced that first hand. 3 years ago (and earlier), I didn’t have gapping problems all the way to 3i. However, age is catching up and I am losing some speed. Unfortunately, the speed isn’t without other confounding variables even in my anecdotal experience because I have also become a better golfer. As a result, going back in time, my speed was higher with a single length 3, 3 hybrid and 4 iron. Truth is, I just went after them more. So, holding speed as constant is probably not really accurate because maybe playing a round of golf you swing at 70%, not redlining…but when you are hitting a lower lofted club, you up intensity to 80-90%. When you add the change of intensity to the additional mass of a single length hybrid you actually do get more speed + more mass. This can further be enhanced by doing things like adding some counterweight to the hybrid (making swing weight lighter). Result - more speed, more mass, more distance while maintaining same setup, swing plane, distance from ball, etc. 

 

Everyone is different so I don’t know how sensitive other people are to swing weight changes. But for me, I have to get bigger changes in total weight or swing weight before I really notice anything…but the speed improvements happen well before I actually notice a difference.

 

As I have gotten better, I really don’t like “going after it” much any more. So, while I like to blame my loss of speed on age when I get on a launch monitor I still see that I am capable of amping the speed up, but it feels too hard and feels like I lose too much control.

 

I say all of this to say, I found my gapping issues were resolved by making adjustments to the clubs. For starters, I use the 3 utility iron and single length hybrid that I have that club configured with a slightly lighter and softer shaft (85g stiff hybrid, 105g stiff 3 utility vs 130g XS irons). That does allow me to get more speed and still keep all the benefits of single length without putting in more effort. Next, I adjusted lofts. With more speed, I saw higher spin. I didn’t want to see that. I wanted the same launch window/descent angle. I found that for me to get the proper gapping through the set, I actually moved some of the higher lofted clubs a little weaker and the stronger lofted clubs stronger.

 

In the end, I don’t think the problem with gapping is particularly a single length issue as much as trying to take tools that aren’t customized to get the most benefit. This is especially true of the single length hybrid. With this club, I would typically go with a lighter/softer shaft and potentially even decrease the loft to optimize flight. 

 

 

[Drrussell]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:01 PM, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

True. BTW I did a comparison between VL and SL irons here:

 

 

The goal was to look at two variables--kinetic energy and momentum.

• The variable length set I used in my example has *almost* perfectly consistent momentum across the set assuming PGAT swing speeds. As the length increases, the speed does too, but the heads get lighter, and it evens out. A single length set has *absolutely* consistent momentum across the set because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical. 
• However, for kinetic energy, it's the square of velocity. So as the VL set gets longer and the heads get lighter, the head is carrying more kinetic energy for the longer clubs. Whereas the SL set again has absolutely consistent kinetic energy because the length (swing speed) and head weight are identical across the set. 

Tutelman says that speed is more important for distance than clubhead weight: https://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/physics4.php

 

That leads me to believe that kinetic energy is the dominant factor, not momentum. Which is why, despite heavier head weights in a single length set, it's more common to find gapping issues at the low-lofted end of the set. 

 

As you point out, this is *not* an argument that the SL concept doesn't work. It's just that you are solving for a different issue (consistency) and that has effects on the ability to develop the necessary speed at the top of the bag. Which is why companies like Wishon don't even offer a SL 4i (only 4h), and recommend hybrids up to 6h for slower swing speeds. Also why you can't just throw a titanium head of the same weight on a driver, fit it to a shorter steel shaft and lie angle to match your irons, and hit it as far, developing optimal launch conditions, as you'll hit a lighter head at 45". You just can't develop the speed, no matter the head weight. 

 

I have read the tutelman explanation and he’s 100% correct if you had iron Byron hitting the ball. Where he’s wrong is that single length clubs are not actually swinging at a consistent speed. This is at the heart of why Cobra changes lie angles throughout the set. They recognized that people swing a single length 4i faster than they swing a single length 9i.

 

That’s the primary factor in their changing lie angle configuration.

 

The other factor that theoretically contributes to different lie angle is the different blade length. In theory a 4i has a longer blade and thus more downward pulling force on the clubhead. Because I have played Cobra clubs for so long, at least anecdotally, the longer blade has a very minimal contribution to downward deflection My full swing with LW to 3i is the same speed. My 3/4, 1/2 are as well. When I went through lie angle testing, I ended up adjusting all lie angles to be the same. However, I do end up swinging 3/4 shots with everything below 7i more than full swings. 

 

My point is, holding speed consistent is NOT going to provide accurate real world results. When I swing my 3u or my 3h, I will routinely be at 92-90mph. Most of the time when i am playing my 1/2-3/4 shots my speed will be closer to 85-87mph. That’s why my gapping on the top end still works. Speed is different because the intention is different. 

 

If you are someone that does have different swing speeds based on the intended shot, then gapping will be more appropriate. If you are swinging at 80mph regardless of club, then gapping will be an issue and you either have to make a change. It can be loft, length, or shaft flexibility. All are variables you can use to address gapping. The real question is, will people just take clubs off the shelf and say “there are gapping issues” or will they make the proper adjustments to fix the gapping issue. 

[bekgolf]

On 5/31/2023 at 12:19 PM, WVP said:

Does anyone have any experience with one length hybrids? I may have stumbled onto something and wondering if anyone has had similar results.

 

I grabbed a 21 degree Cobra LTDx one length hybrid off the used rack last night and tried it out. Honestly it was a revelation how consistent it was as far as the distance and trajectory. So easy to make consistent contact with the shaft length. 

 

I'm now considering picking up a 24 degree LTD or Aerojet one length hybrid. Super tempting to have a simple, stress-free 190 to 200-yard shot. 

 

I recently purchased a Cobra LTDx One Length 4 hybrid 21*.  It took a little while to convince myself to hit it.  First time on course I whiffed, lol (didn't take it to the range first).  Things have changed since then, I love it.  It goes about as far as my 23* 5 iron.  It's so easy to hit off the deck, just like a 7 iron.

 

I'm thinking of trying a 19* version.  My concern is that 21* is the most I can get away with at 7 iron length and still get positive returns.  I was searching for posts about a 19* One Length hybrid when this popped up.

[DocBrown3887]

On 5/31/2023 at 7:32 PM, bluedot said:

I did it with Ping G30 hybrids.  It was an easy DIY because Ping doesn’t tip trim the stock shafts, and I was able to get after market head weights to make all of them identical except for loft.

 

If it was in any way beneficial, I couldn’t see it.  I didn’t hit the 3 hybrid better than before; nothing changed that I could quantify, and I was using Arrcos before and after, so I wasn’t just guessing.  No harm done, but no benefits that I could find.

 

When I switched to G410 hybrids, I got fitted with the Tensei Blue shaft, and I left them alone.

 

Did your descent angle change with the shorter shaft vs. regular length? What length did you cut down to?

[Multipass613]

I've gone the middle road, built a super cheap 21 degree Cobra SpeedZone hybrid with -1" length. It's my money club for 200 yards, can use it to escape any rough or punch out under trees.

 

It's longer than a one length, but feels like a really short cheat stick. Will never play standard length again.

 

Note: it helps to do this with an upright clubhead, if you did this with an already flat lie angle you might run into trouble.

[bluedot]

21 hours ago, DocBrown3887 said:

 

Did your descent angle change with the shorter shaft vs. regular length? What length did you cut down to?

First question: I have no idea about any descent angle bore and after.  

Second question: I made them all the length of my 4 hybrid, which was not only in the middle, but the one I hit best.

[BackYardPar]

On 6/10/2023 at 11:55 PM, mlwenzlick said:

dont know what to tell you, it’s simple physics. bryson can do it better with his ss, but mortals (the target market) can’t elevate the long clubs. it’s pretty well documented.

Sounds like you might be referring to the single length irons. This whole thread is about one length hybrids. Completely different club types. Apples to grapes

[NorCal678]

I'm really interesting in going this route.  I have the speed to make this work.  What i want to know is who makes hybrids with a upright enough lie angle other than cobra?