Green Speed at Majors is out of Control

[2over]

The 13+ stimpmeter green speeds at all majors now is ruining the game. To prove the point look at the first round of the US Open compared to the 4th. The soft greens in the 1st round were quick but you could make putts long and short. The 62s were awesome to watch! So exciting! Hit a bad shot, or a bad putt and you'd be punished in the 1st round. But a good shot or good putt got good results and great putts or great shots got great results. But by Sunday, the greens were so hard and dried out and much more like putting on the kitchen floor. When greens are that fast, 13+ you have to hit the putt so softly that at the hole it just doesn't have the pace to hold its line and wanders off unpredictably as we saw again and again on Sunday. Rory hit one excellent putt after another (as did Clark and the others) and they just trickled past the hole. Sheffler's long back 9 birdie bomb on Sunday would have gone 10 feet past if it hadn't hit the hole, and was pure desperation! I found the 1st round scintillating viewing and the 4th round was just... boring. I stopped watching live and let the DVR get it and FF'd through it, knowing what I was going to see. Great shots and no putts holed. I want to see good shots rewarded not punished and on any kind of fairly set up test of golf, the best players in the world are not going to go all day and not hole a putt over 5 feet.

 

The obsession with par the USGA (and PGA Tour and all the majors now have) has got to stop. The average pro is what a +5 'cap? And the top ones are like +8, +9? 65 should be the normal score for these guys on a reasonably set-up par 70 course. It's just vanity on the part of the aging ams who run the USGA, RA, PGA Tour and of most viewers. We want to imagine that us low single digits and scratch players are close to the pros when the truth is (as many internet golf pros show when they go up against a tour player) there is no comparison. They are playing a game we can only imagine and their scores should reflect this reality.

 

Also rough that you can only advance the ball 40 yards or so out of is ridiculous. Augusta has it right... a "first cut"3/4 iinch or so or whatever it is, that just makes it a bit harder to spin and stop the ball but still allows a perfectly struck shot to get a good result is what I want to see (although no rough at all as Augusta was in Bobby Jones day is even better!). But the greens are too f%$*ing fast at Augusta for it to be fun anymore. The ball really needs to be rolled back too, so that a 7400 yard course is a real challenge even with wide fairways and greens rolling 10 on the stimp.

 

Greens over 10 are simply no fun to putt, especially for ams. A number of courses that I play roll 12+ routinely. You just can hardly make a putt especially if it's downhill even slightly. It just wanders off at the hole, the "donut-effect" being so pronounced as to make putting incredibly frustrating. 10 should be the max green speed for pro tournaments and then we'd see reasonable speed greens at the better clubs and a more fair and enjoyable game to watch and play for everyone. Actually if you want to make it hard and borderline unfair, slow the greens down to 5 or 6 and force 'em to use wedge on the green to hole shots! That would at least keep the skill involved.

Edited June 20, 2023 by 2over

[Chazb]

You have to compensate somehow with over 300 yard drives to even the field.With easier greens to putt because of speed golf  would not be fun to watch anymore.

[golfing_penguin]

Only in America. The Open never gets over 10

[Ferguson]

6 hours ago, golfing_penguin said:

Only in America. The Open never gets over 10

 

 

The British Open requires a different game for sure.  

[kasting333]

Talk about an easy way to improve pace and make the game more “sustainable”

[412BryanC]

I always thought they should make the fairways less firm so they don’t get as much roll from their drives rather than snow the greens. Though Oakmont for the open typically slows their greens down to 13 from around 14.5 I believe. 

[kasting333]

2 minutes ago, 412BryanC said:

I always thought they should make the fairways less firm so they don’t get as much roll from their drives rather than snow the greens. Though Oakmont for the open typically slows their greens down to 13 from around 14.5 I believe. 

I love when these members say that stuff when they host a US Open or PGA
 

“We had em’ running faster for the member-guest” 😂

[Soloman1]

They weren’t that fast Sunday. Take a look at how long of a stroke players used on relatively flat putts. Dried out greens have more friction. Some pin placements were not easy and approaches were harder to stop, but green speed didn’t seem excessive to me.

 

I do agree that over 10 is unreasonable for recreational players

Edited June 20, 2023 by Soloman1

[596]

99% of golfers have zero idea how fast greens run.  They don't even know what a stimpmeter looks like.

 

OP and I will agree. Tour greens are too fast. Saw many good lines with the putt rolling so slow it just wandered all over the place. 

[Ferguson]

1 minute ago, Soloman1 said:

They weren’t that fast Sunday. Take a look at how long of a stroke players used on relatively flat putts. Dried out greens have more friction. Some pin placements were not easy and approaches were harder to stop, but green speed didn’t seem excessive to me.

 

 

 

90% Scheffler's missed putts were short. 

 

[Soloman1]

1 minute ago, Ferguson said:

 

90% Scheffler's missed putts were short. 

 

 

The greens were too slow. 😉

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Soloman1

[Duct Tape]

12 hours ago, 2over said:

The 13+ stimpmeter green speeds at all majors now is ruining the game. To prove the point look at the first round of the US Open compared to the 4th. The soft greens in the 1st round were quick but you could make putts long and short. The 62s were awesome to watch! So exciting! Hit a bad shot, or a bad putt and you'd be punished in the 1st round. But a good shot or good putt got good results and great putts or great shots got great results. But by Sunday, the greens were so hard and dried out and much more like putting on the kitchen floor. When greens are that fast, 13+ you have to hit the putt so softly that at the hole it just doesn't have the pace to hold its line and wanders off unpredictably as we saw again and again on Sunday. Rory hit one excellent putt after another (as did Clark and the others) and they just trickled past the hole. Sheffler's long back 9 birdie bomb on Sunday would have gone 10 feet past if it hadn't hit the hole, and was pure desperation! I found the 1st round scintillating viewing and the 4th round was just... boring. I stopped watching live and let the DVR get it and FF'd through it, knowing what I was going to see. Great shots and no putts holed. I want to see good shots rewarded not punished and on any kind of fairly set up test of golf, the best players in the world are not going to go all day and not hole a putt over 5 feet.

 

The obsession with par the USGA (and PGA Tour and all the majors now have) has got to stop. The average pro is what a +5 'cap? And the top ones are like +8, +9? 65 should be the normal score for these guys on a reasonably set-up par 70 course. It's just vanity on the part of the aging ams who run the USGA, RA, PGA Tour and of most viewers. We want to imagine that us low single digits and scratch players are close to the pros when the truth is (as many internet golf pros show when they go up against a tour player) there is no comparison. They are playing a game we can only imagine and their scores should reflect this reality.

 

Also rough that you can only advance the ball 40 yards or so out of is ridiculous. Augusta has it right... a "first cut"3/4 iinch or so or whatever it is, that just makes it a bit harder to spin and stop the ball but still allows a perfectly struck shot to get a good result is what I want to see (although no rough at all as Augusta was in Bobby Jones day is even better!). But the greens are too f%$*ing fast at Augusta for it to be fun anymore. The ball really needs to be rolled back too, so that a 7400 yard course is a real challenge even with wide fairways and greens rolling 10 on the stimp.

 

Greens over 10 are simply no fun to putt, especially for ams. A number of courses that I play roll 12+ routinely. You just can hardly make a putt especially if it's downhill even slightly. It just wanders off at the hole, the "donut-effect" being so pronounced as to make putting incredibly frustrating. 10 should be the max green speed for pro tournaments and then we'd see reasonable speed greens at the better clubs and a more fair and enjoyable game to watch and play for everyone. Actually if you want to make it hard and borderline unfair, slow the greens down to 5 or 6 and force 'em to use wedge on the green to hole shots! That would at least keep the skill involved.

So much to respond to here. You can’t slow down the greens and thin the rough and expect almost any course to create a US Open challenge for any pro.  Difficult, par golf is the expectation of many (most) fans and the USGA. Witness the explosion of the US Open thread the first day after the low scores.  The last post I read there stated LACC was less “manly than Kapalua”! Your proposal is completely counter to most of what we’ve read this past week. 
 

Todays pros hit driver off everything, they’re so long and straight, unless there’s water or, dare I say, a barranca out past 280-300. Bunkers don’t really bother them. Rough either if you have a wedge in your hand, like BDC at Winged Foot. 
 

Many players, including me, prefer fast greens. They usually roll truer. I routinely play on greens stimping 12 or faster.  Playing in Florida on bermuda, or in the UK (as much as I love golf there) is much harder for me. Maybe my putting stroke is so flawed it worsens when I try to hit it harder?  Who knows. 
 

I’m with you on rolling the pros’ ball back, since I love the traditional courses, but it remains to be seen how that will play out. 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Duct Tape

[Soloman1]

2 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

Maybe my putting stroke is so flawed it worsens when I try to hit it harder?

 

The longer the stroke, the greater the chance of things going wrong…

[Duct Tape]

I neglected to mention trees. 😀. Perhaps the thing I always felt most remarkable about Tiger’s game (Phil too was a master) was how far and deep he could pump his mega-drives into the woods, so much beyond where you and I could get them, and yet hit these amazing recovery shots through, over, or around,  and onto the green. 
 

Frequently this lead to a reasonable birdie putt where the average mortal would be scrambling for a bogey. Or worse. 
 

90% air?  Right…

[Hawkeye77]

12 hours ago, 2over said:

The 13+ stimpmeter green speeds at all majors now is ruining the game. To prove the point look at the first round of the US Open compared to the 4th. The soft greens in the 1st round were quick but you could make putts long and short. The 62s were awesome to watch! So exciting! Hit a bad shot, or a bad putt and you'd be punished in the 1st round. But a good shot or good putt got good results and great putts or great shots got great results. But by Sunday, the greens were so hard and dried out and much more like putting on the kitchen floor. When greens are that fast, 13+ you have to hit the putt so softly that at the hole it just doesn't have the pace to hold its line and wanders off unpredictably as we saw again and again on Sunday. Rory hit one excellent putt after another (as did Clark and the others) and they just trickled past the hole. Sheffler's long back 9 birdie bomb on Sunday would have gone 10 feet past if it hadn't hit the hole, and was pure desperation! I found the 1st round scintillating viewing and the 4th round was just... boring. I stopped watching live and let the DVR get it and FF'd through it, knowing what I was going to see. Great shots and no putts holed. I want to see good shots rewarded not punished and on any kind of fairly set up test of golf, the best players in the world are not going to go all day and not hole a putt over 5 feet.

 

The obsession with par the USGA (and PGA Tour and all the majors now have) has got to stop. The average pro is what a +5 'cap? And the top ones are like +8, +9? 65 should be the normal score for these guys on a reasonably set-up par 70 course. It's just vanity on the part of the aging ams who run the USGA, RA, PGA Tour and of most viewers. We want to imagine that us low single digits and scratch players are close to the pros when the truth is (as many internet golf pros show when they go up against a tour player) there is no comparison. They are playing a game we can only imagine and their scores should reflect this reality.

 

Also rough that you can only advance the ball 40 yards or so out of is ridiculous. Augusta has it right... a "first cut"3/4 iinch or so or whatever it is, that just makes it a bit harder to spin and stop the ball but still allows a perfectly struck shot to get a good result is what I want to see (although no rough at all as Augusta was in Bobby Jones day is even better!). But the greens are too f%$*ing fast at Augusta for it to be fun anymore. The ball really needs to be rolled back too, so that a 7400 yard course is a real challenge even with wide fairways and greens rolling 10 on the stimp.

 

Greens over 10 are simply no fun to putt, especially for ams. A number of courses that I play roll 12+ routinely. You just can hardly make a putt especially if it's downhill even slightly. It just wanders off at the hole, the "donut-effect" being so pronounced as to make putting incredibly frustrating. 10 should be the max green speed for pro tournaments and then we'd see reasonable speed greens at the better clubs and a more fair and enjoyable game to watch and play for everyone. Actually if you want to make it hard and borderline unfair, slow the greens down to 5 or 6 and force 'em to use wedge on the green to hole shots! That would at least keep the skill involved.

 

LOL, weak "hot" take - the 80s called about the fast greens, heavy rough whine - and that's a Betamax you are using, not a dvr.

 

 

[idrive]

Can't please everyone.

 

It wouldn't matter how any course was set up, there would still be threads of people complaining.

 

For me, I just remind myself they're all playing the same course.

 

 

[kasting333]

17 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

The longer the stroke, the greater the chance of things going wrong…

I’ve always thought slower greens benefit the more confident putter. 
 

Super slow 3-5 footers seem easier to yip

[snagy2000]

OP must not be a good putter. Our greens run at 12 - 14 most of the time and are a joy to play because they roll pure. Slow greens are a drag, literally!

[Fairways_and_Greens]

14 minutes ago, snagy2000 said:

OP must not be a good putter. Our greens run at 12 - 14 most of the time and are a joy to play because they roll pure. Slow greens are a drag, literally!

Must have greens with enough flat spots for pins if that is true. 

[tatertot]

8 hours ago, golfing_penguin said:

Only in America. The Open never gets over 10

Are you delusional?

[tatertot]

13 hours ago, 2over said:

The 13+ stimpmeter green speeds at all majors now is ruining the game. To prove the point look at the first round of the US Open compared to the 4th. The soft greens in the 1st round were quick but you could make putts long and short. The 62s were awesome to watch! So exciting! Hit a bad shot, or a bad putt and you'd be punished in the 1st round. But a good shot or good putt got good results and great putts or great shots got great results. But by Sunday, the greens were so hard and dried out and much more like putting on the kitchen floor. When greens are that fast, 13+ you have to hit the putt so softly that at the hole it just doesn't have the pace to hold its line and wanders off unpredictably as we saw again and again on Sunday. Rory hit one excellent putt after another (as did Clark and the others) and they just trickled past the hole. Sheffler's long back 9 birdie bomb on Sunday would have gone 10 feet past if it hadn't hit the hole, and was pure desperation! I found the 1st round scintillating viewing and the 4th round was just... boring. I stopped watching live and let the DVR get it and FF'd through it, knowing what I was going to see. Great shots and no putts holed. I want to see good shots rewarded not punished and on any kind of fairly set up test of golf, the best players in the world are not going to go all day and not hole a putt over 5 feet.

 

The obsession with par the USGA (and PGA Tour and all the majors now have) has got to stop. The average pro is what a +5 'cap? And the top ones are like +8, +9? 65 should be the normal score for these guys on a reasonably set-up par 70 course. It's just vanity on the part of the aging ams who run the USGA, RA, PGA Tour and of most viewers. We want to imagine that us low single digits and scratch players are close to the pros when the truth is (as many internet golf pros show when they go up against a tour player) there is no comparison. They are playing a game we can only imagine and their scores should reflect this reality.

 

Also rough that you can only advance the ball 40 yards or so out of is ridiculous. Augusta has it right... a "first cut"3/4 iinch or so or whatever it is, that just makes it a bit harder to spin and stop the ball but still allows a perfectly struck shot to get a good result is what I want to see (although no rough at all as Augusta was in Bobby Jones day is even better!). But the greens are too f%$*ing fast at Augusta for it to be fun anymore. The ball really needs to be rolled back too, so that a 7400 yard course is a real challenge even with wide fairways and greens rolling 10 on the stimp.

 

Greens over 10 are simply no fun to putt, especially for ams. A number of courses that I play roll 12+ routinely. You just can hardly make a putt especially if it's downhill even slightly. It just wanders off at the hole, the "donut-effect" being so pronounced as to make putting incredibly frustrating. 10 should be the max green speed for pro tournaments and then we'd see reasonable speed greens at the better clubs and a more fair and enjoyable game to watch and play for everyone. Actually if you want to make it hard and borderline unfair, slow the greens down to 5 or 6 and force 'em to use wedge on the green to hole shots! That would at least keep the skill involved.

Fleetwood should have had a 63 on Sunday, which ruins your hypothesis ... you didn't see more missed putts on Sunday because of speed, you saw more missed putts on Sunday because of nerves.

 

[snagy2000]

5 minutes ago, Fairways_and_Greens said:

Must have greens with enough flat spots for pins if that is true. 

There's plenty of undulating to them, flags are usually put in fair spots. You just got to know how to play your shots coming into the greens, you don't want to be short-sided or above the hole.

[So_Cal]

As my buddy and I watched this live he said - LA need to speed up their greens like Oakmont.  Way too slow.  Can’t satisfy everyone. 

[Mike_C]

I hate slow greens. 

 

55 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

The longer the stroke, the greater the chance of things going wrong…

 

Describes my stoke entirely.......  If I have to worry about getting a 4-6 footer to the hole, my make percentage goes way, way down....

[bladehunter]

No.    Slow greens are harder for a good player. The more “ hit “ you have to put in the stroke. The more offline it goes.    There is a limit to speed on the fast end too. But 6-8 for ams is literally horrible.  Like putting on Velcro.  You’ll have to bash 12 footers . No thanks. 

[BobMorris]

14 hours ago, 2over said:

 The average pro is what a +5 'cap? And the top ones are like +8, +9? 65 should be the normal score for these guys on a reasonably set-up par 70 course.

 

Greens over 10 are simply no fun to putt, especially for ams. A number of courses that I play roll 12+ routinely. You just can hardly make a putt especially if it's downhill even slightly.

 LACC's US Open setup rated out to a 76.9 course rating with a slope of 148. Those are the numbers you use when computing handicaps. It's important because as you know, some Par 70 layouts are complete pushovers, and some will make you take a sabbatical. Let's take an average of your guesstimates of touring pro's true handicaps, and take for example a pro who plays to a +7. Using that figure, hypothetically he'd be expected shoot somewhere around even par at LACC over a decent sample size of rounds under those conditions. It appears as though you instead took Par as your baseline.

 

As to your beef with fast green setups, these players are the best of the best, not amateurs. The greens for the US Open were setup commensurate with the skill level of the players involved. They played easier on Thursday because the course saw rain overnight, and softened things up. Once they dried up and the sun came out, they of course became more difficult. Green complexes are among the very easiest part of a course to "dumb down" based on the type of players that typically play it. The members there don't play the greens you saw last week. I know, I've caddied there for a few friends, and they are mostly playable for all type of abilities. As an aside, I myself love fast greens. For me it takes speed a bit more out of the equation, and leaves me to concentrate on the line, knowing the ball will likely get to the hole. It also makes me bear down even harder on hitting my approaches to the proper places on the greens to leave myself better looks.

 

My $.02

Edited June 20, 2023 by BobMorris

[Dutch1008]

3 hours ago, 412BryanC said:

I always thought they should make the fairways less firm so they don’t get as much roll from their drives rather than snow the greens. Though Oakmont for the open typically slows their greens down to 13 from around 14.5 I believe. 

They need to do both. If you slow the fairways, players should have longer irons coming into greens. I think this is a good thing. However, if you don't also slow the greens comparatively, nobody will score. You may be able to hold that green with a pitching wedge, but not an 8i. 

 

There need to be balance. A drive to the proper side of the fairway, followed by an iron onto the proper spot of the green, should create a birdie look. The only thing that should change is the margin for error. A US Open should have very little margin for error. I don't like set ups that produce nothing but bogeys and two putt pars. I like variance. I want to see birdies and doubles. 

 

I thought LACC was a pretty good set up, especially on the weekend. Opportunities to score on the front but very demanding on the back. Perhaps the greens got a little too tight on Sunday afternoon, but I'm ok with that because LACC doesn't really challenge the player off the tee. 

 

Assuming a ball roll back doesn't take place before LACC is revisited, the one thing I'd change is strategically tightening the fairways. Wyndham Clark was bailed out on 18. That was a terrible slice, no different than Mito at Southern Hills or Phil at Wingfoot. Wyndham paid no price for that miss.   

[Cincy_Ken]

I don't agree with slowing the fairways at all.  For instance Rory can carry the ball a ridiculous distance.  if you slow the fairways more guys hit them from longer distances which again favors the bombers on approach.  Make it challenging to hit the fairway.  if Rory hits the ball 50 yards past everyone else and holds the fairway then he deserves it.  

 

Not necessarily due to fairway speed but you saw what an easy fairway did yesterday on 18 with Wyndham where he was able to rip a big slice and had no pressure to get that ball in play.

[snagy2000]

13 minutes ago, Cincy_Ken said:

I don't agree with slowing the fairways at all.  For instance Rory can carry the ball a ridiculous distance.  if you slow the fairways more guys hit them from longer distances which again favors the bombers on approach.  Make it challenging to hit the fairway.  if Rory hits the ball 50 yards past everyone else and holds the fairway then he deserves it.  

 

Not necessarily due to fairway speed but you saw what an easy fairway did yesterday on 18 with Wyndham where he was able to rip a big slice and had no pressure to get that ball in play.

Rory can't hit the green from 125yds, not sure that's an advantage...

[PedronNiall]

The only time I have issue with exceptionally fast greens on tour is when the pin is placed such that even balls putted from the downhill side won't stay up or when the only landing area that offers access to an uphill putt isn't large enough to allow a reasonable shot in. Other than that, fair game. To the sustainability argument, though, slightly slower greens with unshaven fairways that would produce longer shots in to a more receptive surface would be fine. As long as they roll relatively true I'm happy watching a range of speeds.

 

Yes, there were putts this weekend that players had wobble down to the hole and stop just short. That's the expectation of a US Open, risk/reward even once someone's on the green. You jam it in and risk the consequences if you miss, or you try and play it to the number for safety's sake and know you might juuuust be off but won't be putting for par from 6 to 10 feet or end up somewhere off the green.