Green Speed at Majors is out of Control

[chigolfer1]

When did fast greens sort of become synonymous with PGA golf?  Has it always been like this or was there some sort of tipping point where the faster the green the better?

[Fairways_and_Greens]

8 hours ago, tatertot said:

Are you delusional?

Lots of old courses have greens that have a lot more movement than modern courses. The course I play on is from 1910 and two of the greens have no pinable space below 2.5 degrees slope. Those two greens dictate how fast the rest of the course can be. 
 

When I played in Europe, it was shocking how hard and slow some of the greens were. Chips would bound, but then stop like they were on shag as soon as they settled into a roll. 
 

[dekez]

22 hours ago, Ferguson said:

 

90% Scheffler's missed putts were short. 

 

 

He is costing Scotty Cameron sales...

[Ferguson]

2 minutes ago, dekez said:

 

He is costing Scotty Cameron sales...

 

It's hard to watch Scheffler's work on the greens (even though I forecasted this in January, and it has nothing to do with the flat stick). 

 

 

 

He's got one major remaining, and as an homage to the truest of all British heroes, we can say this of Scheffler's game in terms of British Open Golf: 

 

 

 

 

[iNeedMoreGolf]

I dont know what some of the greens i ever played were rolling.. but ive played alot alot of greens that of you tapped and i mean tapped no exaggeration the ball on a downhill putt if you hit the hole anything but dead center it wasnt going to go in and ot would be 15 20 feet past. Level you could pass by 5 6 feet from a normal stroke for the required putt. I can deal with fast medium or slow... but ultra insanity fast that you have no shot at is ridiculous. Also... inconsistent greens.. give me fast fine.. but give me that every hole not just a slow one randomly every 2 to 4 holes. That drives me nuts too.

[marmaduk]

A real test would be if they made each green stimp different. You could have much more interesting pin positions because you could pair it with a fast/slow green.
 

The players would lose their minds.  But then again slow play is already an issue so probably not a good idea. lol

[mbb86]

There's not much to respond here because the OP is just so blatantly wrong. 

 

Greens that run ~11 on stimp are not particularly bad or hard. Sure, if you start running Pinehurst #2 faster than 11, then yeah things will get pretty tricky. Pinehurst #2 is a fairly extreme case that is a world famous course because of it's greens. But that's exactly how a US open should play. 

 

[Duct Tape]

On 6/21/2023 at 5:24 AM, iNeedMoreGolf said:

I dont know what some of the greens i ever played were rolling.. but ive played alot alot of greens that of you tapped and i mean tapped no exaggeration the ball on a downhill putt if you hit the hole anything but dead center it wasnt going to go in and ot would be 15 20 feet past. Level you could pass by 5 6 feet from a normal stroke for the required putt. I can deal with fast medium or slow... but ultra insanity fast that you have no shot at is ridiculous. Also... inconsistent greens.. give me fast fine.. but give me that every hole not just a slow one randomly every 2 to 4 holes. That drives me nuts too.

Been there done that too often. 
 

Once when I bitched to our pro about being dead above several holes he said, “don’t hit it there”. 😀🤓

[BNGL]

58 minutes ago, marmaduk said:

A real test would be if they made each green stimp different. You could have much more interesting pin positions because you could pair it with a fast/slow green.
 

The players would lose their minds.  But then again slow play is already an issue so probably not a good idea. lol

Fun fact that happens at Augusta every green is different 12 is the slowest on the course

[marmaduk]

2 minutes ago, BNGL said:

Fun fact that happens at Augusta every green is different 12 is the slowest on the course

Really? I had no idea. 
hmm. I will be paying closer attention next year. Are they drastically different? Is it intentional or just circumstance of the ground?

[m d g]

Welcome to the forum, Mr. Tolstoy!

[tgoodspe1991]

I cared less about the green speeds and more about the fact that there was a 300y drivable Par 4 followed by two 300y Par 3's. LACC just seems like a stupid course design IMO and wasn't all that much fun to watch. 

[So_Cal]

18 minutes ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

I cared less about the green speeds and more about the fact that there was a 300y drivable Par 4 followed by two 300y Par 3's. LACC just seems like a stupid course design IMO and wasn't all that much fun to watch. 

The course was actually designed to be four courses in one.  So par could vary depending on pin positions and tees used for the day.  It was way ahead of its time.  That being said the USGA was in control of the setup.  You may enjoy George Thomas’ book where it discusses LACC at length.  

[BNGL]

1 hour ago, marmaduk said:

Really? I had no idea. 
hmm. I will be paying closer attention next year. Are they drastically different? Is it intentional or just circumstance of the ground?

Every green at ANGC Masters week is prepared the best that it can be for that weeks hole locations, each is unique from the others. 12th is always one of the slower greens because it has so much slope (there’s so much slope there already). One reason why it’s never really let anyone rate it officially or publish green speeds because they’re all different. 
 

 

[mosesgolf]

And yet we had an exciting finish and final round.  Blame Rory for missing the green with a wedge from 125 yds for the loss..

[tgoodspe1991]

9 minutes ago, mosesgolf said:

And yet we had an exciting finish and final round.  Blame Rory for missing the green with a wedge from 125 yds for the loss..

The fact that Rory can carry it 330y effortlessly and miss the green from <125y is astounding. He has the wedge game of a 10-handicap sometimes.

[manku]

1 hour ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

I cared less about the green speeds and more about the fact that there was a 300y drivable Par 4 followed by two 300y Par 3's. LACC just seems like a stupid course design IMO and wasn't all that much fun to watch. 

 

11 and 7 used to both be well under 250...because of the distance the current players hit the ball, tournament directors and clubs are shoving tee boxes in places that have zero to do with the original design.

 

I was fortunate to have played Merion a few times in the early 90s...the tee box on 3 was ridiculous, as were a few others.   

 

And 6 wasn't drivable when I played it pre renovation.

[So_Cal]

28 minutes ago, manku said:

 

11 and 7 used to both be well under 250...because of the distance the current players hit the ball, tournament directors and clubs are shoving tee boxes in places that have zero to do with the original design.

 

I was fortunate to have played Merion a few times in the early 90s...the tee box on 3 was ridiculous, as were a few others.   

 

And 6 wasn't drivable when I played it pre renovation.

I think they put in another tee box on 3 even farther back.  It’s ridiculous considering how that green plays.  

[mosesgolf]

1 hour ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

The fact that Rory can carry it 330y effortlessly and miss the green from <125y is astounding. He has the wedge game of a 10-handicap sometimes.

Well let's give him wedge game of a WRX 4 at least.  🤣

[iNeedMoreGolf]

6 hours ago, Duct Tape said:

Been there done that too often. 
 

Once when I bitched to our pro about being dead above several holes he said, “don’t hit it there”. 😀🤓

Im convince alot of the setup guys have no idea what they are doing because if so theyd realise most people playing the courses cant hit absolute pin point golf shots. If that were the case we wouldn't be so mad maybe lol. All i know is i never see a pro have a down hill putt that he can only take the putter back and inch or two and have it still roll by the hole by 15 feet. The other day i missed  two birdies because right at the hole and i mean right 2 inches at the hole it turns severely left. Where do you see this on tv? Everything looks flat or gentle turns... very rarely i see them have big breaking putts. I dont see them putt to a hole thats in the middle of a mound sideways.. that almost impossible to make or stop the ball near the hole lol thanks for the extra strokes guys.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

On 6/20/2023 at 7:29 AM, Duct Tape said:

...Many players, including me, prefer fast greens. They usually roll truer. I routinely play on greens stimping 12 or faster.  Playing in Florida on bermuda, or in the UK (as much as I love golf there) is much harder for me. Maybe my putting stroke is so flawed it worsens when I try to hit it harder?  Who knows....

 

 

 

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote, though not sure how the ball would work.

 

Chiming in to say that I really agree with you on the fast greens part.  You just have to miss correctly on them.  The chip keeps rolling, rolling, rolling.  LOL.

 

Never played an Oakmont, but I have played one where the starter was bragging they were around 11 that day.  Loved it.  OTOH, the exaggerated motions I need for a much slower green's longer putts are difficult with my current setup (and lack of practice).  

 

EDIT: missed @bladehunter's post, which made my point, but more elegantly.  Glacial greens do feel like putting on velcro.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[johnseg]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:07 AM, kasting333 said:

I love when these members say that stuff when they host a US Open or PGA
 

“We had em’ running faster for the member-guest” 😂

Agree. I think the Oakmont thing has evolved into urban legend category. I know they run them fast but...

 

RP can confirm I am sure.

[black bnr32]

It just seemed like nobody could buy a putt on Sunday because the greens were breaking too much 

[So_Cal]

13 hours ago, johnseg said:

Agree. I think the Oakmont thing has evolved into urban legend category. I know they run them fast but...

 

RP can confirm I am sure.

If your ball marker doesn’t slide off the green they are holding something back.  😃

[blades_are_life]

15 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Agree with pretty much everything you wrote, though not sure how the ball would work.

 

Chiming in to say that I really agree with you on the fast greens part.  You just have to miss correctly on them.  The chip keeps rolling, rolling, rolling.  LOL.

 

Never played an Oakmont, but I have played one where the starter was bragging they were around 11 that day.  Loved it.  OTOH, the exaggerated motions I need for a much slower green's longer putts are difficult with my current setup (and lack of practice).  

 

EDIT: missed @bladehunter's post, which made my point, but more elegantly.  Glacial greens do feel like putting on velcro.

lol I loved watching the Masters and seeing them consistently missing putts short when the greens were wet

[Soloman1]

On 6/26/2023 at 6:04 PM, marmaduk said:

Really? I had no idea. 
hmm. I will be paying closer attention next year. Are they drastically different? Is it intentional or just circumstance of the ground?

 

It depends on the pin position and topography. Courses have been doing this for a long time. When they say greens are running X stimp, that's just an average.

 

The people setting up courses are not morons, except for the possible exception of USGA Opens... 🙂

[kasting333]

14 hours ago, black bnr32 said:

It just seemed like nobody could buy a putt on Sunday because the greens were breaking too much 

The USGA was protecting par with harder pins. It made the players be too conservative on their approach and almost every GIR being a 2-putt. 
 

Ignoring the lack of fans, the short par 3 15 turned into a dull hole when they should’ve kept it exciting like they had it on Thursday. Most of the pros these days are too aware of their dispersion to get fooled by these sucker pins. 

[johnseg]

2 hours ago, kasting333 said:

The USGA was protecting par with harder pins. It made the players be too conservative on their approach and almost every GIR being a 2-putt. 
 

Ignoring the lack of fans, the short par 3 15 turned into a dull hole when they should’ve kept it exciting like they had it on Thursday. Most of the pros these days are too aware of their dispersion to get fooled by these sucker pins. 

16 guys did shoot under par in the 4th round and they weren't all early morning starts. Fleetwood shot 63.

 

Courses can be had by these guys. The problem is as much as the course changes so do they in their approach. Guys play tighter and scores go up. Fowler only made 2 birdies. Clark made 4 and Fleetwood had 2 eagles. I will concede that the course is set up harder but you have to stay aggressive as well if you want to make birdies. If your mentality is make 18 pars most times someone will catch you unless you are way ahead.

[Hale607]

The US Open is supposed to test every part of a players game, i didnt see that with LACC.  Fast greens, narrow fairways and deep rough are a staple in most US Opens and i believe that is a formula to test every aspect of a players game.  Players nowadays do not like to make bogeys or dbl bogeys, and complain about tough conditions that is why we are seeing easier USGA conditions than years past--see normal pga tour events--no rough, flat greens, no blind shots.  

[Titleist99]

On 6/20/2023 at 4:23 PM, chigolfer1 said:

When did fast greens sort of become synonymous with PGA golf?  Has it always been like this or was there some sort of tipping point where the faster the green the better?

Quite sure the architect didn't intend for greens to stimp at 14.🙂