Brian Harmons shaft flex

[Kai Slater]

4 hours ago, Short Pete said:

That Horman dude can't be considered a man's golfer if he doesn't carry a forged 1 iron with a tipped X100 TT DG shaft and uses a garden rake as a putter. He may be Champion Golfer of the Year, but he will never get the Greg and Arnie Award for carrying real men's golf clubs. Same as that other dude Speith.😉

 

HARMAN! His name is HARMAN!

Brian Harman would not be allowed on this forum with playing his current specs.

[MtlJeff]

9 hours ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

Interesting take. Why is the stout stuff not optimal for pros? 

 

I just feel like in the past most pros played heavy X stuff. Even some of the mid or slower swingers

 

You send to see a lot more 50-60g shafts now, at least I feel. And for someone like Brian Hermon, who isn't a fast swinger there's probably no need for X

 

But even the really fast guys, it's not all 70-80g whiteboards like i feel uses to be more common 

[MattC555]

11 minutes ago, MtlJeff said:

 

I just feel like in the past most pros played heavy X stuff. Even some of the mid or slower swingers

 

You send to see a lot more 50-60g shafts now, at least I feel. And for someone like Brian Hermon, who isn't a fast swinger there's probably no need for X

 

But even the really fast guys, it's not all 70-80g whiteboards like i feel uses to be more common 

 

Brian Hurmin has a similar swing speed to me - mid 160s with driver.  I find the S300 stout and generally prefer lighter shafts.  That 5 S probably gives him a ball speed bump, and he has the hands to control it.  Conversely I need all the tip feedback I can get to keep my drives on the planet.  I'm always surprised by the amount of champions tour guys still playing with lead pipes. 

[MtlJeff]

14 minutes ago, MattC555 said:

 

Brian Hurmin has a similar swing speed to me - mid 160s with driver.  I find the S300 stout and generally prefer lighter shafts.  That 5 S probably gives him a ball speed bump, and he has the hands to control it.  Conversely I need all the tip feedback I can get to keep my drives on the planet.  I'm always surprised by the amount of champions tour guys still playing with lead pipes. 

 

I think for a lot of guys, it's like blades, it's just what you did. Plus there were less shaft options. This is all hypothetical of course. 

 

It feels like there's a ton of "mid launch" stuff available now, plus many seem fine with lighter weights. I think Dustin Johnson used a 50G shaft for a bit and maybe still does

 

I remember Sergio back in the day using like a 90G shaft in his driver and 100g in his fairways, i don't think you see that much anymore

[NoCalHack]

Brian Harman averages around 110 and in my limited watching of the Open I saw him hit 169 ball speed.  He's near the bottom of the tour in distance but I think people have this crazy idea that he's slow.  He's slow for a tour player, but can swing faster than 95% of amateurs gaming X flex. 

 

He's clearly an outlier because S flex is rare on tour, even among guys in the bottom 10% of the tour.  But I'd bet if everyone on the tour swung 110, you would see a lot more.  I don't understand why I see so many people swinging X flex at 150's ball speed.  I know that the data says flex doesn't make a huge difference for a lot of swings, but I don't know why some people like the feeling of swinging rebar because its what the tour players use.

[LowAndLeft32]

6 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

Brian Harman averages around 110 and in my limited watching of the Open I saw him hit 169 ball speed.  He's near the bottom of the tour in distance but I think people have this crazy idea that he's slow.  He's slow for a tour player, but can swing faster than 95% of amateurs gaming X flex. 

 

He's clearly an outlier because S flex is rare on tour, even among guys in the bottom 10% of the tour.  But I'd bet if everyone on the tour swung 110, you would see a lot more.  I don't understand why I see so many people swinging X flex at 150's ball speed.  I know that the data says flex doesn't make a huge difference for a lot of swings, but I don't know why some people like the feeling of swinging rebar because its what the tour players use.

I think you make some interesting points. But I have also seen studies suggesting that lighter weight and less stiffness doesn’t necessary lead to higher ball speeds and more distance. 

[Louis_Posture]

23 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

Brian Harman averages around 110 and in my limited watching of the Open I saw him hit 169 ball speed.  He's near the bottom of the tour in distance but I think people have this crazy idea that he's slow.  He's slow for a tour player, but can swing faster than 95% of amateurs gaming X flex. 

 

He's clearly an outlier because S flex is rare on tour, even among guys in the bottom 10% of the tour.  But I'd bet if everyone on the tour swung 110, you would see a lot more.  I don't understand why I see so many people swinging X flex at 150's ball speed.  I know that the data says flex doesn't make a huge difference for a lot of swings, but I don't know why some people like the feeling of swinging rebar because its what the tour players use.

 

I believe much of players swing tempo-rhythm is related to their shafts weight and flex. Harman may be playing S flex because he likes the tempo and rhythm which that flex brings to his  swing.

50 years ago Gary Player swung R flex shafts because he liked the timing that a softer flex brought to his swing.

Most LPGA Tour players swing 80-90 gram weight iron shafts because this weight promotes the smooth tempo, good rhythm and well balanced swings they desire.

[NoCalHack]

30 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

I think you make some interesting points. But I have also seen studies suggesting that lighter weight and less stiffness doesn’t necessary lead to higher ball speeds and more distance. 

 

 

Yes, I know.  But the studies also show that people do have a flex that's best for their flight.  I think a lot of people use X because the tour guys do and they can hit it by people in their foursome.  Not because they were fit on a launch monitor or actually like the feel.

[GoGoErky]

3 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

Yes, I know.  But the studies also show that people do have a flex that's best for their flight.  I think a lot of people use X because the tour guys do and they can hit it by people in their foursome.  Not because they were fit on a launch monitor or actually like the feel.

There’s no standard for flex so how can one have a flex that’s best for their flight? 
 

And as Howard, Stuart and others point out, flex is only comparable in the same shaft line with the same weight class

Edited July 24, 2023 by GoGoErky

[NoCalHack]

13 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

I believe much of players swing tempo-rhythm is related to their shafts weight and flex. Harman may be playing S flex because he likes the tempo and rhythm which that flex brings to his  swing.

50 years ago Gary Player swung R flex shafts because he liked the timing that a softer flex brought to his swing.

Most LPGA Tour players swing 80-90 gram weight iron shafts because this weight promotes the smooth tempo, good rhythm and well balanced swings they desire.

 

 

When I see Brian Harman's swing, I don't see him as having a particularly slow tempo.  Any tour guy you see looks like they swing easy, some more than others.  But Harmon is not particularly slow and smooth in tempo.  He's only 5'7" tall.  You can't have too slow a tempo and swing 110 at that size.

[Nard_S]

7 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

I think you make some interesting points. But I have also seen studies suggesting that lighter weight and less stiffness doesn’t necessary lead to higher ball speeds and more distance. 

I went back to my 80g S shafted driver. 340 grams overall. Flat out works better than lighter 60g or 70g builds, better on consistency and is near same on distance. Heavier/softer is solid strategy on shafts, but yield is not immediate, one can sense faster with lighter right away, the perks of other end, can take weeks to appreciate. My setup has a lot versatility to it, low or high, controlled or bomber mode. After 3 years of lighter/stiffer, like this setup better.

[Louis_Posture]

5 minutes ago, NoCalHack said:

 

 

When I see Brian Harman's swing, I don't see him as having a particularly slow tempo.  Any tour guy you see looks like they swing easy, some more than others.  But Harmon is not particularly slow and smooth in tempo.  He's only 5'7" tall.  You can't have too slow a tempo and swing 110 at that size.

 

I never wrote "slow tempo".

Consistently good effective swings are all about rhythm and tempo. In the old days Tour players used to monitor it constantly because with steel shafts-persimmon heads-balata balls an out of rhythm swing would produce bad shots. The modern equipment now has somewhat diminished the requirement for effective rhythm and tempo, but it's still present.

I imagine Harman believes that the shaft weights and flex he has in his bag now promotes the swing rhythm-tempo he wants to use.

[tacklingdummy]

19 hours ago, JDSPGA said:

If I had a dollar for every fitting I give when the golfer claims they are slicing or hooking it because the shaft is too soft I’d be rich. 
 

It’s definitely not the fact they are 5 degrees steep, 8 left, and the face is 10 degrees open…….

 

But could the, "5 degrees steep, 8 left, and face 10 open,"  be possibly better corrected with a better fitted shaft? That is the question. Yes, it is the technique, however, a correctly fitted shaft/club combinations do make a big difference. 

 

 

[tacklingdummy]

2 hours ago, NoCalHack said:

Brian Harman averages around 110 and in my limited watching of the Open I saw him hit 169 ball speed.  He's near the bottom of the tour in distance but I think people have this crazy idea that he's slow.  He's slow for a tour player, but can swing faster than 95% of amateurs gaming X flex. 

 

He's clearly an outlier because S flex is rare on tour, even among guys in the bottom 10% of the tour.  But I'd bet if everyone on the tour swung 110, you would see a lot more.  I don't understand why I see so many people swinging X flex at 150's ball speed.  I know that the data says flex doesn't make a huge difference for a lot of swings, but I don't know why some people like the feeling of swinging rebar because its what the tour players use.

 

 

But shaft flex is not all about swing speed. Lots of other factors involved in shaft flex like tempo, strength, how the club is loaded, how the club is released, feel, etc. Also, lots of other metrics in shafts (torque, kick point, frequency, etc) that makes shafts totally different within same flex.  

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by tacklingdummy

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

Double post.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

(May as well use the double-post to make a point.)

 

I likely don't have "the speed" for X either, swinging on a very good day what Harman cruises at.  I got 'fitted' into them for irons & wedges because it was a bandaid that helped keep my ball flight down.  Then I found I liked the feel of some whiteboard Xs in woods and, in my head, they helped prevent some inadvertent hooks.  Likely S400 (and lessons) would work just as well for the irons and the hooked woods.

 

But that may be why for some people. I certainly wasn't expecting it before the demo day.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

6 hours ago, KNOWMOREDOUBLES said:

There are few occasions where they are running the ball along the ground for 50, 60 yards.

Certainly there are.  Their drives...

 

Which is a fertile area, IMHO, for those who think distances have gotten way out of hand in the modern men's game.  Soften the fairways and maybe let the grass grow out a tad?  Instead of Tour course fairways putting our home course greens to shame.  It's 'bad' enough these guys are flying it 300+, but we're going to add 50+ yards of roll on a pool table smooth fairway?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[Louis_Posture]

30 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

 

  Soften the fairways and maybe let the grass grow out a tad? 

 

Softening the ground at tee shot landing areas can prevent an errant shot from finding the rough. I believe the primary reason Tour standards include firm fairways is to make the course play "more narrow".

[KNOWMOREDOUBLES]

49 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Certainly there are.  Their drives...

 

Which is a fertile area, IMHO, for those who think distances have gotten way out of hand in the modern men's game.  Soften the fairways and maybe let the grass grow out a tad?  Instead of Tour course fairways putting our home course greens to shame.  It's 'bad' enough these guys are flying it 300+, but we're going to add 50+ yards of roll on a pool table smooth fairway?

I guess what I meant to say is they are not chipping and running shots into the greens with 7 irons from 50 yards.

[Pepperturbo]

Cory Pavin, and there are others.  Harmon was hitting it, for the most part, as far as others, 5i to the turn on 18.  I am sure he made his contract bones with Titleist and Graphite Design. 🙂 

 

The inequity is kinda sad, though, thanks to distorted media personnel, most of which are hacks.  Someone like Bozo Bryson D and his rebar shaft company gets camera attention just because he reaches a green.

[RoyalMustang]

17 hours ago, Nard_S said:

S400's are not soft. They handle quite a bit of speed. Only on WRX.

 

I am 112-116 SS and play an S400. Great shaft! Isn't it basically a slightly heavier X100 soft stepped 1X? Honestly, I have gone to top golf and hit some great balls with their noodle flex clubs. You feel the club load and need to be smooth. 

[Zitlow]

Does anyone have any experience with titanium shafts? 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, Louis_Posture said:

 

Softening the ground at tee shot landing areas can prevent an errant shot from finding the rough. I believe the primary reason Tour standards include firm fairways is to make the course play "more narrow".

This is a Broadie-question, and I don't have Decade charts in front of me, but aren't the SG for 40 yds closer in the rough, about the same as 40 yds further away, but in the fairway?

 

The rough (provided it's not Oak Hill or your typical USGA torture test), just doesn't bother these guys that much. I'm willing to be shown differently.

 

Now if the driving distance was reined in this way, I think you'd see an adaptation towards higher launch and less spin to boost carry (at the expense of the roll they used to get) and try to make up some of the distance back.  Which they can do, but it's dancing on a knife edge if they get really aggressive and long-drive-esque with their technique.

 

Seems easier than trying to push a ball change through.  Assuming you think there's a problem that needs solving, of course.

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

14 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

Honestly, I have gone to top golf and hit some great balls with their noodle flex clubs. You feel the club load and need to be smooth.

(Raises hand) "Hi, I'm Jayjay, ("Hi, Jayjay!") and...I bring my own sticks to TopGolf....(sobs)   

It's air-conditioned, OK!?"

 

I have tried their clubs.  It was certainly...different.  I'll have to do it again with your point in mind.

[Louis_Posture]

4 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

 

 

Seems easier than trying to push a ball change through.  Assuming you think there's a problem that needs solving, of course.

 

I don't believe there is any problem at all relating to clubs, balls, course design, 400 yard drives, 175 yard 9-iron shots, scores in the 50's, tournaments being won with a 30 under par score etc...

I like tradition (s)  and am "old fashioned" by nature but to me there is nothing wrong with appreciating (and accepting) the spot on the golf course where Byron Nelson once swung a 4-iron followed by Jack Nicklaus swinging a 7-iron and current players now swinging a wedge. Over the decades athletic sports and games evolve, that's just part of life.

 

[Louis_Posture]

19 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Does anyone have any experience with titanium shafts? 

I remember a few decades ago titanium shafts were available but usually players complained that they felt/sounded too rigid and harsh.

[mat562]

24 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Does anyone have any experience with titanium shafts? 

 

I played titanium shafted woods for several years in my youth and still have a set of Sandvik-shafted Titleist 681s in my cupboard that I knocked up a few years back as a bit of an experiment.

 

They worked very well for me in the woods but less well in irons - either the Pings I used back in the early 90s or the later Titleist set. I struggled with the feel versus the X100s I was playing at the time, likely largely due to the weight difference of 25-30 grams, and in particular struggled with distance control and consistency. I also found it very hard to flight shots down consistently with the Sandviks.

 

THat said, I'm now playing a lighter shaft, albeit around 120 grams, so still a good bit heavier than titanium, and have moved to a softer flex: in my case a hardstepeed set of KBS Tours. They frequency out at something in the low sixes on the Brunswick scale (Edit: just checked. 6.3), but they still feel quite lively after 30 years of playing a pretty stout-feeling DG X100 (6.8) in my irons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by mat562

[Nard_S]

43 minutes ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

I am 112-116 SS and play an S400. Great shaft! Isn't it basically a slightly heavier X100 soft stepped 1X? Honestly, I have gone to top golf and hit some great balls with their noodle flex clubs. You feel the club load and need to be smooth. 

Great shaft, right?  I believe step profile is different.  Common choice for wedges at Pro level. That alone says plenty enough. S400 is a great variant to an iconic shaft. X100 too much for me.

 

[tgoodspe1991]

Shaft flex doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does.

 

Shaft flex doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does.

 

Shaft flex doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does.

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by tgoodspe1991
Because shaft flex doesn't matter nearly as much as you think it does.

[cardoustie]

I’d like to try an iz6x, had a 5x in a 5w and loved the kick

 

B Langer also in IZ?