US Ryder Cup team selections (*** NO LIV DISCUSSIONS ***)

[Hawkeye77]

15 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

Well said. All these guys have egos so I'm not surprised that Zinger likes to pat himself on the back. 

 

I grew up loving Phil but it's become abundantly clear that the FIGJAM nickname was laser accurate. He will perpetually believe that he is the smartest person in the room. 

 

Had Tiger never had his personal and physical struggles, I imagine he would have been similar to Sutton or T. Watson as a Capt. Perhaps a little too sure of himself and completely incapable of seeing the world through another point of view. There is the old joke that the best players make the worst coaches. They'll never be able to wrap their heads around a persons inability to do something that came so easy to them. New Tiger may be a bit different. Time will tell but I'm cautiously optimistic. Rumors are that its his team at Beth Page. A bit sad as that really should have been Phil considering NY absolutely loved Phil. 

 

I further agree that they just need to play better at the end of the day, I just think chemistry and camaraderie are real things and help that objective. Everything in balance though. We don't need to be including Smylie Kaufman just because he's part of the spring break crew, talent and form should be weighed more heavily. 

New York will love Tiger as well - and no doubt a few elements in the crowds there will still find a reason (do they need any, lol) to act up - but hopefully that will be epic in a good way - hope the golf landscape can be sorted out by then.

[Putter Addict]

6 minutes ago, Forged4ever said:

I'm a big Keegan Supporter and have said as much as he definitely would have been in my six Captains' picks, though depending on my belly to belly conversation with Justin, he may well have been also(Screw these phone calls and zoom calls). If his answer to my question was what I was lookin for, then he's in. If not, I'll thank him for sittin down with me, wish him the best and move on.

 

While I believe that a personal bond to a Partner can indeed be a tremendous strength and asset,  if you're Swingin, Playin and scorin like 💩💩, unless your Partner is JC😇 himself, it ain't gonna do the Team a damn bit of good

 

My logic regarding this was fine, at least to the guys that know me, understand me and know what I meant, though I do apologize for obviously not making myself clear, as what I meant by "Play Better, Win More" was to Play well enough & to win enough to finish in the Top-6 and take it out of the Captain's hands. Keegan was Playing well enough and was in the Top-6, though he did not finish strong enough to nail it down. Actually, Keegan spoke to his former RC Captain today and while this Gent thinks the world of Keegan and feels very badly for him, he told him EXACTLY that, that he just had to "Play Better." As well as he Played, he didn't Play well enough nor win enough to Place in the Top-6, thus leavin Captain spineless and the young boys network in the rear view mirror.

 

Sorry that I wasn't clear in what I meant😊

 

Thanks for responding👊

 

All The Best🍻

RP

No worries, I get it. And you're right, he should have played well enough to automatically qualify. I just think it's tough in this particular case given the choice of someone who played so poorly all year. 

 

I feel much worse for Glover. Hopefully they can both automatically qualify next time around. 

[LBB]

54 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

Had Tiger never had his personal and physical struggles, I imagine he would have been similar to Sutton or T. Watson as a Capt. Perhaps a little too sure of himself and completely incapable of seeing the world through another point of view. There is the old joke that the best players make the worst coaches. They'll never be able to wrap their heads around a persons inability to do something that came so easy to them. New Tiger may be a bit different. Time will tell but I'm cautiously optimistic. Rumors are that its his team at Beth Page. A bit sad as that really should have been Phil considering NY absolutely loved Phil. 

 

Americans seemed to rally around Tiger just fine when he was players captain at the 2019 President's Cup and came back to win from down 9-5.  Not sure what you meant by "time will tell."

 

I do agree though that the "new TW" was key to that success in 2019.  I wouldn't have wanted to be on that team down 9-5 with the old TW as the captain.

[Dutch1008]

22 minutes ago, LBB said:

I'm quoting your post, but responding to the thread in general.  Past match play records IMHO are overvalued.  It's such a small sample size, could have to do with how their partner played, or they just rand into a buzz saw on a given match. 

 

If on the Sunday of a Masters you shoot 64 to win or shoot 64 to finish 2nd (like McIlroy did in 2022), you get credit for a good performance that historically people can easily find as part of your results.  Similar to how we quote how many 2nd place finishes Jack had at majors as a positive part of his resume. 

 

You shoot an effective 64 and lose a singles match, it goes down in the record books as a L.  It's harder to remember how well a golfer performed 6-10 years later when the result of match play is so cut and dry and not compared against a larger field of golfers like a 4 day stroke play tournament result does.

 

If prior match play results do matter, then I'll just point out that Viktor Hovland's RC record stands at 0-3-2.  His Palmer Cup record from 2017-18 is 2-5-1.  His Dell Match Play record is 4-5 from 2021-23 having never made it out of pool play despite being the highest seed in his group all 3 years.

 

Are we going to infer that Hovland is going to be a walk over at the 2023 RC despite his stellar play recently?  Or do we throw past records out and realize the guy is playing like a top 2 golfer in the world that nobody wants to go up against?

Very good points. One of the podcasts I recently listened to talked about how Sam Burns actually played really well at the '22 President's Cup despite going 0-3-2. Scottie struggled as his partner in the 1st match and other teams were just pouring birdies in the other matches. Apparently he had like an effective 67 scoring average. Or Rory's epic loss to Patrick Reed, both played amazing but Rory takes the L. 

 

So I agree, a record over a single Ryder Cup or Presidents Cup is hardly definitive. But the more matches you play, the more your record should reflect your ability as a player. Sergio is not as good as his record, Poulter is certainly not as good as his record, and JT isn't as good as his record. But I don't think those records are meaningless either. I don't think it's a surprise that the list of US Amatuer champs includes so many big names. The pressure of match play is different. Some people thrive and others don't.    

[gripandrip]

22 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

Well, the way Captain Johnson's been talking his selection of JT was an easy one.  He's proclaimed that JT can partner with anyone and win points.

I guess we will have to wait and see... I hope JT can find his form.

[3whacker]

4 hours ago, NV825 said:

Yeah, I like JT but he really should have been picked as an Assistant Captain/backup player if they needed a fill in. Keegan had a phenomenal year and should have been on the team. 

No such thing as a back up player in the RC...thats why I made the reference to Lanny W name in the envelope...that year Europe had an injured player and was unable to play his singles match, so in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play, Lanny Wadkins volunteered to have his name put in the envelope and that singles match was declared a draw...Lanny was also a Captains pick that year so he felt it wasnt fair to keep a player who earned their spot to miss out on a singles match

[gripandrip]

5 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

Smylie Kaufman had an interesting theory on his podcast. He suggested that the 6 Capt's picks we're not established to "pick the hot hand" but to keep people out. I don't think this is the explanation for excluding Glover, just another tool in the toolkit for a Capt. For example, if someone like Patrick Reed were to finish between 7 and 12 on the points list but a Capt believes they're a cancer and poor fit in the team room, they now have the flexibility to go elsewhere. 

 

It's a bit of a slippery slope and could certainly be abused, but nobody wants to deal w/ a perpetual malcontent.   

There are too many captains pick in this current climate.

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, RobS said:

The European teams have been more successful over the last 35 years without tasks forces or pods.

The Euro's kind of do have "pods". Seve and Jose Maria played together. Sergio and Rahm. After Whistling Straits, Harrington talked about how scary the US squad is because they've finally started to embrace some of the team dynamics that have been the bedrock of the European teams. That could all be media/coach speak, but I think there is a nugget of truth in it.  

[3whacker]

its time for the "pods" system to go, if they have former Presidents and Generals giving pep talks putting guys in a pod creates cliques...The WAGs all get together no pods, these guys know each other, they play against them 20+ times a year, and if they dont then maybe they need to take the time out to play each other

As for DJ looking pudgy and disinterested....he is probably still the best athlete in professional golf...and if I was married to Paulina i would be distracted too

[Dutch1008]

22 minutes ago, LBB said:

Americans seemed to rally around Tiger just fine when he was players captain at the 2019 President's Cup and came back to win from down 9-5.  Not sure what you meant by "time will tell."

 

I do agree though that the "new TW" was key to that success in 2019.  I wouldn't have wanted to be on that team down 9-5 with the old TW as the captain.

I have little doubt that the US team and the NY fans will rally around Woods. By "time will tell" I'm talking about whether Tiger will be a good Capt or not. I could see him being stubborn and stuck in his ways like Watson and frustrated that others don't approach the game like he does. That seems to be the modus operandi for many all time greats. This was a guy who's only friend on tour was Mark O'Mera and who dumped Steve Williams despite monumental success. He's obviously softened over the years and seems to be making a concerted effort to be an ambassador of the game and to pass along knowledge. So again, I'm optimistic.  

[Dutch1008]

22 minutes ago, gripandrip said:

There are too many captains pick in this current climate.

That's a fair argument. I think a Capt should have some say in his roster. Just as I believe any good general manager solicits the opinion of his head coach. What's the right number? I think 8 auto and 4 picks is a good ratio. 2/3 of the team based solely on merit. 1/3 based on both skill and personality fit. I don't think 10 auto and 2 picks really gives the Capt much flexibility. 

[Forged4ever]

On 8/31/2023 at 7:43 PM, Putter Addict said:

No worries, I get it. And you're right, he should have played well enough to automatically qualify. I just think it's tough in this particular case given the choice of someone who played so poorly all year. 

 

I feel much worse for Glover. Hopefully they can both automatically qualify next time around. 

Yah, I feel really badly for Lucas cuz I didn't realize that he's never made a Cup Team and let's face it, though he had a stellar year, at his agr(43yo), ya just don't know if it's a mid-career rebirth or a lightning in a bottle⚡️type of season. Though I've never met him, my Bro did and said he said that he is a great down to earth Guy. 

 

I knew that he made a couple of President's Cups and I assumed that he made either that 2010 or '12 RC Team, however he did not. He had a great year though still sits at #30, so I just don't see Lucas climbing, Playing and staying in that 10-15 area for the next 2-2 1/2 years, though I'd Love to be wrong as he's. Class Act and that would be great to add a RC to his mantle.

 

Thanks again for the responses😊

 

My Best👊

RP

Edited September 1, 2023 by Forged4ever

[Guest RobS]

2 hours ago, grm24 said:

I recall reading that the USA didn't use the POD system in 2010/2012/2014. Used it again in 2016.

That's pretty much correct, 100% correct for 2014.

[Dutch1008]

15 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

he is probably still the best athlete in professional golf

Why, because he's 6'4 and can dunk a basketball? I'd judge you if you're 6'4 and can't dunk. Gary Woodland played college basketball. Rory's a midget who'd drives it past everyone and is like in the top 1% of world wide Peloton users. The tour is littered with athletes and always has been. Hale Irwin was an all conference defensive back. 

 

I'm a huge DJ fan but he's not in shouting distance of the top 12 on the points list and his data golf strokes gained mark is well behind guys like Finau, Cam Young, and Keegan who all have a much stronger case for inclusion.  

[Hawkeye77]

29 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

its time for the "pods" system to go, if they have former Presidents and Generals giving pep talks putting guys in a pod creates cliques...The WAGs all get together no pods, these guys know each other, they play against them 20+ times a year, and if they dont then maybe they need to take the time out to play each other

As for DJ looking pudgy and disinterested....he is probably still the best athlete in professional golf...and if I was married to Paulina i would be distracted too

It’s really not pods in the way Zinger did it, more a little structure than anything - really doesn’t seem to do any harm, IMO. 

[Guest RobS]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Seve and the rest - it meant more to him, and them and became more meaningful as time went on. No doubt we had some real competitors as well but never seemed to be an overall goal that drove some of our top players - leadership is what the Euros had and it came from the players. They should all give thanks to Nicklaus for his role in helping make that happen, haha!!

No doubt.  The Euro's like Seve, especially Seve, wanted to show everyone that they weren't second fiddle to the PGA Tour.  Even when the Euro stars started regularly playing on the PGA Tour, they were able to maintain that traditional passion for the event.  Things were really off the rails for the US by the time some the players started looking for money, Tiger Woods called it an exhibition and Duvall said it seemed like a large corporate outing.  All of the players weren't even traveling together on the team plane as they were squeezing in the Ryder Cup between other obligations.  The Euro team has always been consistent in their approach, elevating recent players to assistant and eventually captain where the US is reinventing themselves every two years and at times bringing in captains who are a little too far removed.

[Dutch1008]

22 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

It’s really not pods in the way Zinger did it, more a little structure than anything - really doesn’t seem to do any harm, IMO. 

The "task force" explained...

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/the-ryder-cup-task-force-strange-as-it-sounded-turned-out-successful

 

Since that article they obviously went on to win the president's cup at Quail Hollow. So the pod system / task force / whatever is 2-1 at the Ryder Cup and 4-0 at the President's Cup. So 6-1 total and 7-1 if you add in Azinger's win as the genesis of the idea. Seems like they may be on to something. The only thing the new system has yet to accomplish is a Ryder Cup win on foreign soil.  

[GolfTurkey]

I’m sure it has been said already, but only having 6 automatic picks and 6 captain’s picks is just inviting an old boy’s club.

[scores]

Justin and Jordan will need to get along with the team because the way they are hitting the tee ball,  they will need help to look for their golf balls in the high rough!! They better start hitting straighter tee shots!!

 

[BombinJim]

2 hours ago, Forged4ever said:

if you're Swingin, Playin and scorin like 💩💩, unless your Partner is JC😇 himself, it ain't gonna do the Team a damn bit of good

Just so happens Spieth had at least a year in his career where he was as close as you can get to JC 😂

[scores]

Good golf shots beats the you know what out of a POD system!!

 

[NV825]

3 hours ago, 3whacker said:

No such thing as a back up player in the RC...thats why I made the reference to Lanny W name in the envelope...that year Europe had an injured player and was unable to play his singles match, so in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play, Lanny Wadkins volunteered to have his name put in the envelope and that singles match was declared a draw...Lanny was also a Captains pick that year so he felt it wasnt fair to keep a player who earned their spot to miss out on a singles match

I was thinking more of a back up going into the event, but I don’t know what the rules are for alternates before it begins. 

[LBB]

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

The "task force" explained...

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/the-ryder-cup-task-force-strange-as-it-sounded-turned-out-successful

 

Since that article they obviously went on to win the president's cup at Quail Hollow. So the pod system / task force / whatever is 2-1 at the Ryder Cup and 4-0 at the President's Cup. So 6-1 total and 7-1 if you add in Azinger's win as the genesis of the idea. Seems like they may be on to something. The only thing the new system has yet to accomplish is a Ryder Cup win on foreign soil.  

 

President's Cup hasn't been a fair fight for a really long time.  The US hasn't lost since 1998.  Not sure if some task force is responsible for them winning the last 4.  Of the 48 members of the last 4 teams...US had had 4 members outside the top 25 OGWR and none outside the top 30.  Internationals had 37 outside the top 25 and 14 outside the top 50.

 

I'd just leave it as 2-1 since the task force was used.

 

Then you look closer at the last 3 RCs

US won in 2016, but the Euro wasn't very deep on paper with 5 guys outside the top 40 OGWR and the US having all 12 members inside the top 31.

Euros won 2018 with a much more balanced roster with all 10 of 12 players inside the top 26 OGWR and and US having all 12 members inside the top 25.

US won in 2021, but again the Euros weren't deep with 6 guys 35th or worse OGWR and the US all in the top 21.

 

So is this task force even really making a difference when the US is winning when it's heavily favored, and losing when they are only slightly favored?

 

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by LBB

[LBB]

double post

Edited September 1, 2023 by LBB

[Guest RobS]

9 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

The Euro's kind of do have "pods". Seve and Jose Maria played together. Sergio and Rahm. After Whistling Straits, Harrington talked about how scary the US squad is because they've finally started to embrace some of the team dynamics that have been the bedrock of the European teams. That could all be media/coach speak, but I think there is a nugget of truth in it.  

The Euro's have had some frequent and famous pairings of fellow countrymen but they never broke the team down into separate groups.  Sergio is remembered from playing with Ollie and then with Rahm but most of his partners haven't been players from Spain.  Westwood was his most frequent partner followed by Donald. One year he played every match with Jesper and another year it was Rory.  Paul McGinley, who captained against Watson, was asked about the pod drama when Watson didn't stick with Azinger's template and his comment was that the Euro's have been successful by having teams of 12 that were always together as one and not segregated into groups.  I don't know exactly what Harrington was referring to  but the US team seemed to have a lot of 'spirit' and were having a lot of fun in 2021 which could be what he was referencing.  

[Louis_Posture]

15 minutes ago, RobS said:

his comment was that the Euro's have been successful by having teams of 12 that were always together as one and not segregated into groups.  I don't know exactly what Harrington was referring to  but the US team seemed to have a lot of 'spirit' and were having a lot of fun in 2021   

Winning breeds togetherness , camaraderie, team chemistry.

In 2021 at Whistling Straits the European team  was losing matches and did not seem to have any of the above. 

 

[3whacker]

If I was Luke Donald , I would seriously give Padraig Harrington consideration as one of his pics

[Hawkeye77]

25 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

Winning breeds togetherness , camaraderie, team chemistry.

In 2021 at Whistling Straits the European team  was losing matches and did not seem to have any of the above. 

 

It was postponed, still COVID malaise, lots of reasons for the “away” team to not be as up for it - Rahm was a beast, though. USA had almost every guy in the top 10 at the time and was a great time for young guys to shine. 

[Hawkeye77]

4 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

If I was Luke Donald , I would seriously give Padraig Harrington consideration as one of his pics

The course would eat him alive. 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

10 hours ago, GolfTurkey said:

I’m sure it has been said already, but only having 6 automatic picks and 6 captain’s picks is just inviting an old boy’s club.

Sure it could if the captain lacks leadership and analytic skills to build a high performance team.

 

But a good leader with an analytic mind can see beyond a simple ranking system.  The same way employers don't solely hire based on aptitude tests and college admissions look beyond SAT scores for example. 

 

The Ryder Cup ranking system is absolutely not infallible. Sometimes the guys that give you the best team are 1-12 but sometimes not. This is the EXACT reason for Captain picks. Plus it's an important test of the Captain's leadership and an integral part of the Ryder Cup.