Movable obstructions in PA

[jobin]

Yeah. so Tom hit his ball into the PA, near the water. Wanted to play it out to the fairway but saw an empty beer can (a movable obstruction) laying next to, touching, his ball. In fact, Tom was certain that the ball, on a downslope, would move if he moved the can. I told Tom to move the can, replace the ball if need be, and suffer no penalty.

 

Bob also hit his ball into the same PA, but 9 yds ahead of Tom and curiously Bob's ball was also laying up against an object, a discarded apple. Bob said 'I'm gonna do like Tom, move the apple, replace the ball and play on, no penalty.'  For the record, there is no apple tree within 500 miles of Bob's ball, so someone must have caused the apple to be in that place.

 

Now, from my ignorance of the fine particulars, i told Bob that, NO, you cannot do like Tom. The apple is a 'loose impediment' so has different rules. " What?  You are joking said Bob. How can these two situations be so alike, yet so different in solution?"  Yes, i told Bob 'that if you move the apple and the ball moves, penalty stroke to you. Play it down or throw it out of the PA with one stroke added.

 

Was i correct and more importantly 'why the big difference between these two objects', esp in the PA?

[antip]

You got it precisely right.

 

Why the big difference? The general answer is there is a big difference between natural objects on the course - defined as loose impediments - and unnatural/manufactured objects (eg beer cans). The first are a normal part of an outdoor play environment (leaves, twigs etc) so are part of the challenge of playing the game while the latter are not part of the intended challenge.

 

Of course, you could argue that the apple is not part of that course (assuming no apple trees around) but the rules would get extremely complex and subject to more administrative inconsistency if we attempt to define further sub-divisions within loose impediments. 

[st1800e]

What happens if the Apple is half eaten by a human, or if it’s half eaten, peeled and cored, or if it’s a candied apple on a stick?  

[Colin L]

In the instance of the half eaten cored apple, the exposed bits go brown.  Regarding the candied apple, it will be covered in ants or wasps or such like sweet toothed beasties.

 

Before I get my coat, the golfing answer is that the part eaten apple Is still a loose impediment [See clarification of Loose Impediment in the Definitions] https://www.randa.org/rog/clarifications#rog/interpretations/loose-impediment-1  

 

In my view, the candied apple on a stick is an artificial object.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by Colin L

[DaveLeeNC]

True story here. I was off the fairway on a bare, sharp slope. My ball was resting against a huge pinecone (impediment) and the ball would clearly move if I moved the pinecone. I mumbled something to my partner about "what club do you  use  when there is a pinecone between the club face and ball". My partner (team competition) said "Dave, I think that is a Christmas tree ornament". It was December! 

 

I hit a SW from 45 yards out into a greenside bunker. I was not carrying my pinecone wedge that day. 

 

dave

[davep043]

Its important to note that now you're allowed to move both Loose Impediments and Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area.  Prior to 2019, you were not allowed to remove a Loose Impediment in a Hazard.  This is one more way the Rules were simplified, you can basically do the same things in a  Penalty Area that you can do in the General Area.  The only remaining exception I can think of is get relief for an Embedded Ball.

[nsxguy]

[deleted]

Edited September 24, 2023 by nsxguy

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Its important to note that now you're allowed to move both Loose Impediments and Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area.  Prior to 2019, you were not allowed to remove a Loose Impediment in a Hazard.  This is one more way the Rules were simplified, you can basically do the same things in a  Penalty Area that you can do in the General Area.  The only remaining exception I can think of is get relief for an Embedded Ball.

 

Sorry ?

 

I'm missing something (again), yes ?

 

15.1(b)

b. Ball Moved When Removing Loose Impediment

If a player’s removal of a loose impediment causes their ball to move:

• The ball must be replaced on its original spot (which if not known must be estimated) (see Rule 14.2).

• If the moved ball had been at rest anywhere except on the putting green (see Rule 13.1d) or in the teeing area (see Rule 6.2b(6)), the player gets one penalty stroke  under Rule 9.4b, except when Rule 7.4 applies (no penalty for ball moved during search) or when another exception to Rule 9.4b applies.

[Colin L]

5 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sorry ?

 

I'm missing something (again), yes ?

 

 

The2019  change was to allow removal of a loose impediment in the new Penalty Areas (which incorporated the previous water hazards) but there was no change to the penalty for causing your ball to move while removing a loose impediment anywhere.  (There was a corresponding change to allow removal of loose impediments in bunkers, but again no change to not moving your ball in the process.)

[nsxguy]

10 minutes ago, Colin L said:

The2019  change was to allow removal of a loose impediment in the new Penalty Areas (which incorporated the previous water hazards) but there was no change to the penalty for causing your ball to move while removing a loose impediment anywhere.  (There was a corresponding change to allow removal of loose impediments in bunkers, but again no change to not moving your ball in the process.)

 

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

Its important to note that now you're allowed to move both Loose Impediments and Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area.  Prior to 2019, you were not allowed to remove a Loose Impediment in a Hazard.  This is one more way the Rules were simplified, you can basically do the same things in a  Penalty Area that you can do in the General Area.  The only remaining exception I can think of is get relief for an Embedded Ball.

 

OK, I guess I read Dave's post (the bolded part) incorrectly; as in no penalty for the ball moving in the PA for either incident.

 

I took his post to suggest that removing a loose impediment AND the ball moving was NOT a penalty.

 

Re-reading his post again, it appears as though he didn't ACTUALLY say that. I guess he was just clarifying.

 

My bad. Thanks.

[davep043]

18 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

My bad. Thanks

No worries, @Colin L clarified it while I was doing my Stack session.  For reference, the wording from 2016 Rule 23-1 was:

"Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty."

As noted, a penalty applied if the ball was moved, except when the ball was on the Putting Green.

[antip]

9 hours ago, davep043 said:

Its important to note that now you're allowed to move both Loose Impediments and Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area.  Prior to 2019, you were not allowed to remove a Loose Impediment in a Hazard.  This is one more way the Rules were simplified, you can basically do the same things in a  Penalty Area that you can do in the General Area.  The only remaining exception I can think of is get relief for an Embedded Ball.

And no relief from abnormal course conditions, immovable obstructions.

[Colin L]

11 hours ago, davep043 said:

No worries, @Colin L clarified it while I was doing my Stack session. .....

 

Is it rude to ask what a Stack session is?

[davep043]

8 hours ago, Colin L said:

 

Is it rude to ask what a Stack session is?

not at all, it's a swing speed improvement program.

[Colin L]

Thanks, Dave.  I think at my stage I'll just be looking for a hold on to the  swing speed you've got (such as it is) course.