Why is early extension bad mechanics

[MannJ]

I know this topic is played out. I’ve tried researching it most of the summer. I am hoping someone has a solid answer as to why straightening the body up as it moves into the impact position is more problematic than the difficult timing and somewhat awkward body positioning required to keep a resemblance of the spine angle established at address?

 

I ask because as we move into fall I want to see if I can actually benefit from eliminating ee altogether. The only reason for me doing that is ball striking consistency. Being my height, weight, and age, I am not going to gain distance.
Every time I dabbled into eliminating ee over the summer my scores went up. 
I could get rid of it, but my swing was out there in no man’s land when it wasn’t being monitored. 

It means a reworking of my swing that would take a lot of time and repetition. I am wondering if that time wouldn’t be more constructive if it was spent perfecting my current swing which does have a degree of ee, rather than a reconstruction. 

 

Consistency. 
It would seem plain why spine angle was so important if the arms and the rest of the body drooped straight back into the address position at impact. But it doesn’t. Not for Adam Scott or anyone else. The head moves, the hands come in higher, the body is partially contorted and flung wide open, and the legs and feet are on the move towards the target. Mechanically, how does this produce any more consistency then a straightening of the body?

[KD1]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

why straightening the body up as it moves into the impact position is more problematic than the difficult timing and somewhat awkward body positioning required to keep a resemblance of the spine angle established at address?

 

Loaded that question up real full, didn't ya? 😂

 

Timing of which part becomes more difficult?

[MannJ]

I know. I do that. 🫤
If some sort of groundwork isn’t laid I would just get “ee is a symptom” type of responses.

The timing difficulty I’ve had is hips and shoulders/arms. It seems to me the arms have to start the downswing and then the hips have to over take the arms on the way through.
Again, it’s doable, but why do it. 

[MK7Golf21]

4 hours ago, MannJ said:

I know this topic is played out. I’ve tried researching it most of the summer. I am hoping someone has a solid answer as to why straightening the body up as it moves into the impact position is more problematic than the difficult timing and somewhat awkward body positioning required to keep a resemblance of the spine angle established at address?

 

I ask because as we move into fall I want to see if I can actually benefit from eliminating ee altogether. The only reason for me doing that is ball striking consistency. Being my height, weight, and age, I am not going to gain distance.
Every time I dabbled into eliminating ee over the summer my scores went up. 
I could get rid of it, but my swing was out there in no man’s land when it wasn’t being monitored. 

It means a reworking of my swing that would take a lot of time and repetition. I am wondering if that time wouldn’t be more constructive if it was spent perfecting my current swing which does have a degree of ee, rather than a reconstruction. 

 

Consistency. 
It would seem plain why spine angle was so important if the arms and the rest of the body drooped straight back into the address position at impact. But it doesn’t. Not for Adam Scott or anyone else. The head moves, the hands come in higher, the body is partially contorted and flung wide open, and the legs and feet are on the move towards the target. Mechanically, how does this produce any more consistency then a straightening of the body?

 

think about it, if your butt comes towards the ball vs. it's address position then you are taking away space to swing the club. It throws out the angle of the club as you stand up causing flips, inconsistent contact and face control can get iffy. Also turns off rotation. Typically am move is whipping the club inside, going across the line and then standing up through impact and hitting a slice.

 

You just want to manage EE so you have some room to swing with better face control, doesn't have to be perfect. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[KD1]

And *early* extension is by definition a timing flaw.

 

The more you ee and flip at the ball don't you have to have more precise timing and have less room for error than if you rotated through the ball?

 

 

[wagolfer7]

21 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

think about it, if your butt comes towards the ball vs. it's address position then you are taking away space to swing the club.

 

Simplest way to look at it.  Eliminating space requires manipulation at that point. If you can figure how to move the body without eliminating space, golf gets a lot easier. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Proper sequencing of the body and the resulting proper loading and unloading of the wrists is where most club speed comes from.  The more EE you have , the worse those things become.  Some EE is ok and some is better for some people, but in excess you will lose club speed, dispersion control or both.

 

Excess is also bad for your back.  

 

Thats why.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[bobfoster]

A slightly different perspective? I'm not a bad golfer, have been playing for a lot of years. And have, at various times, attempted to micro-manage every little aspect of my swing (and when you fully break the golf swing down, there are literally a couple dozen individual components). Flirted (for instance) with the "P Classification" system for a couple years. Doing endless slow motion swings in my back yard. And all sorts of others. 

 

For some I think that stuff works - especially if you're a pro, and can do a few thousands of reps for every slight swing adjustment. Personally, never worked for me. I started playing golf very early in life, but was playing tennis even before that, and the same feeling applies even to this day. The golf swing, and the tennis swing, both happen in a matter of a second or two. You can't "think" your way through them. They are fluid. Tennis even more so than golf. Ball is coming at me, and in all of a second I'm deciding to hit (for instance) a topspin cross court, or backspin down the line. Grip automatically adjusts, as does "stance" and "swing path". 

 

Same with golf. 

Except that there's actually a lot more time to decide what you want to hit, and how to set up to hit the shot. I don't fixate on micro swing components - P2 on the backswing, ee, or etc. Every time I've tried to just totally messed my swing up. 

 

I "feel" what I want the ball flight to look like, same as I do in tennis. And my grip sort of automatically tilts strong or weak. Stance puts it slight up or back, feet open or closed. Release and follow through full, 3/4, or half.

 

A draw with lots of roll on a long par 5? That is a fast topspin forehand in tennis. Strong grip, ball slightly back, teed a bit higher, closed stance w/ back foot slightly back, swing path more inside out, and the follow through turns my wrists way over. Cutting it right around a dogleg? I "feel" a down the line tennis slice. Weaker grip, ball slightly more forward, and teed a bit lower. Front foot open. Head of the club finishes higher on the follow through. 

 

Point is, I start by primarily seeing what I want the ball to do, and my body just kind of adjusts all the variables of setup and swing to bring that (hopefully) about. 

 

In my experience, focusing on any single aspect of the swing - like the timing of extension - rarely improves the scores of us amateurs. It is different for the pros. They do it for a living. They can (and have to) do a few thousand swings at a range to embed the new muscle memory needed to tweak one P of their swing. They can afford to focus on minutiae. Amateurs can't do that. It is purely a matter of reps.

 

Just my opinion. 

[Nels55]

Well, if you are upper core then it is okay to stand up and early extend:

https://youtube.com/shorts/-Xa_EhtsXz4?si=W8HU54Lzd3WMG-4y

[Jeselnik]

EE isn’t bad if it’s the only option.  The reason EE is necessary is because you either haven’t loaded the pivot and/or have unloaded it out of sequence.

 

JNIK

[airjammer]

In chats with Steve Furlonger he’s stated that he’s never seen vertical pressure too soon. So what that really means is that you missed the window or didn’t apply enough A/P forces which are the rotational forces in the swing. The term Early Extension will be replaced by “A/P deficiency” very soon. 
 

Most likely you don’t need them for your current swing and if you did add more rotational forces you would probably hit it worse. 

[MannJ]

I think where I have gone wrong is recording my swing, drawing a line down the butt line, and considered the swing a failure if my butt came off that line. Flawed thinking.

I can agree that eliminating all of the space the arms should travel through at impact doesn’t leave room for the best possible ball striking. 
The degree of my ee right now is probably workable. However, I think I can and should work on sequencing in the swing. I don’t think that would even be a major change. 
Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. 

[KD1]

A/P?

[getitdaily]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Proper sequencing of the body and the resulting proper loading and unloading of the wrists is where most club speed comes from.  The more EE you have , the worse those things become.  Some EE is ok and some is better for some people, but in excess you will lose club speed, dispersion control or both.

 

Excess is also bad for your back.  

 

Thats why.

 

 

Another part of OP's question is whether to change or manage...

 

I almost started a thread on this over the weekend. 

 

Do you ask your clients if they have the time to make changes and then guide them to a path of changes vs a path of managing their faults if they just don't have the time to make needed changes?

 

 

[airjammer]

49 minutes ago, KD1 said:

A/P?

Away/Push

 

For vertical forces it would be A/P force away from the target..stopping you momentum towards the target…braking essentially. 

 

For Rotation it would be A/P forces that push away from the ball..so stopping you from moving towards the ball..creating space for your arm essentially. 

[airjammer]

Just now, getitdaily said:

Another part of OP's question is whether to change or manage...

 

I almost started a thread on this over the weekend. 

 

Do you ask your clients if they have the time to make changes and then guide them to a path of changes vs a path of managing their faults if they just don't have the time to make needed changes?

 

 

Dana Dahlquist made a post on instagram last week that stated essentially…unless you are under 17 and can beat balls all day…the average person isn’t going to make a drastic change in their overall movement pattern, so it would probably be best to find better match ups for your current movement patterns. 

[ThePaineTrain]

Personal anecdote from a high handicapper, but I've been working on eliminating a sway by fixing my right hip action in the backswing. Been golfing since I was 10, in my 30s now, and finally getting the idea of right hip away from the ball and mentally replacing the idea of "weight shift" with "pressure shift". Despite being a fundamental change, it's not really drastic in terms of feeling or mechanics. In fact it helped simplify or outright eliminate a lot of other moves and swing thoughts I had accrued over the years to compensate.

 

That said, if you're happy with the consistency of your swing, eliminating EE because you don't like how it looks on replay probably isn't a good enough reason. If you find yourself hitting some complete misses and are already incorporating moves to avoid those, then why not try incorporating ideas to eliminate the EE. The goal at the end of the day is to hit the ball predictably, not perfectly and sometimes making a macro adjustment is a better path than adding more micro-adjustments

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

21 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Dana Dahlquist made a post on instagram last week that stated essentially…unless you are under 17 and can beat balls all day…the average person isn’t going to make a drastic change in their overall movement pattern, so it would probably be best to find better match ups for your current movement patterns. 

Far be it from me to disagree with a noted teacher like Dahlquist, but that hasn't been my personal experience retrying the game in my late 40's.  Though I guess we are merely disagreeing on what "drastic" means.

 

My swing was very long, standing-up in transition, to a classic OTT downswing with lots of out to in.  It's been changed to a much shorter swing with early pressure back to my target side.  Path was cleaned up too.  Speed's now even faster than before.

 

It did take a lot of drills, a lot of video---both my own, and watching people like AMG and Monte---and quite a few balls being hit to make those changes though.  Definitely not overnight.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding him?  I read that as he can't really change you, so here are some band-aids so you won't suck too bad?

[airjammer]

19 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Far be it from me to disagree with a noted teacher like Dahlquist, but that hasn't been my personal experience retrying the game in my late 40's.  Though I guess we are merely disagreeing on what "drastic" means.

 

My swing was very long, standing-up in transition, to a classic OTT downswing with lots of out to in.  It's been changed to a much shorter swing with early pressure back to my target side.  Path was cleaned up too.  Speed's now even faster than before.

 

It did take a lot of drills, a lot of video---both my own, and watching people like AMG and Monte---and quite a few balls being hit to make those changes though.  Definitely not overnight.

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding him?  I read that as he can't really change you, so here are some band-aids so you won't suck too bad?

He didn’t elaborate as it was a “story” and not an actual post so people couldn’t post questions as I definitely would have. 
 

How I take it would be something like this. How many people have struggled with inside takeaway for their entire playing time?  If it’s not your job and it’s deeply ingrained why not try to adjust your wrist conditions at the top so that the club isn’t as across the line. 
 

At the professional level: Justin Rose works with Mark Blackburn and Mark posted a video of Justin practicing on the range getting ready to play in the Ryder cup. Justin was using the “Smart ball” like he has been for what seems to be 10 years now. Golfing his job but whatever plaques Justin that the smart ball helps hasn’t been “fixed” after 10 years of focusing on it…so what does that tell about the chances a 40 hour a week desk jockey has on making drastic change in their motion. 
 

For me personally, I’ve had an inside takeaway since I picked up the game over 25 years ago. I’ve tried fixing it but over the years I shortened up my swing and I play a big draw so I’ve worked with what characteristics the inside takeaway set me up for. 

[Zitlow]

You can create more clubhead force by swinging the clubhead in a circle around you on a dynamic rotating plane vs swinging the club on the static address plane. 

 

A good way to look at it is twirling a ball around your hand on a string. The ball is the pulling force and the hand is the holding force. The ball is in orbit as it twirls around your hand, once you stop your hand you create slack in the string the ball loses speed and falls out of it's orbit. 

 

When you early extend your body stands up stopping the rotation and the clubhead falls out of orbit losing speed. 

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, airjammer said:

He didn’t elaborate as it was a “story” and not an actual post so people couldn’t post questions as I definitely would have. 
 

How I take it would be something like this. How many people have struggled with inside takeaway for their entire playing time?  If it’s not your job and it’s deeply ingrained why not try to adjust your wrist conditions at the top so that the club isn’t as across the line. 
 

At the professional level: Justin Rose works with Mark Blackburn and Mark posted a video of Justin practicing on the range getting ready to play in the Ryder cup. Justin was using the “Smart ball” like he has been for what seems to be 10 years now. Golfing his job but whatever plaques Justin that the smart ball helps hasn’t been “fixed” after 10 years of focusing on it…so what does that tell about the chances a 40 hour a week desk jockey has on making drastic change in their motion. 
 

For me personally, I’ve had an inside takeaway since I picked up the game over 25 years ago. I’ve tried fixing it but over the years I shortened up my swing and I play a big draw so I’ve worked with what characteristics the inside takeaway set me up for. 

Problem is most people dont really want to get better. They want to hit the lottery with a lesson or tip, they dont want to work for it. Look at the Haney Project. Out of that whole thing, he might of gotten one person to get better because he actually worked on things and unfortunately he's dead now.

 

If someone really wants to improve they can make the changes.

[SNIPERBBB]

EE isnt bad mechanics, its just that its the only way to make contact with the ball because of the sequence of events leading up to it.

[RichieHunt]

Those with early extension are probably not using their potential ground force.  It also forces golfers to swing their arms more vertically because there's not enough space to swing them on a flatter plane.  That can cause the golfer to get more steep.  

It's not that one can't be a great ballstriker with some early extension (i.e. Nicklaus), but for most golfers they do it way more than Nicklaus did and can't figure out how to manage it like Nicklaus did.

 

 

 

RH

[airjammer]

7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Problem is most people dont really want to get better. They want to hit the lottery with a lesson or tip, they dont want to work for it. Look at the Haney Project. Out of that whole thing, he might of gotten one person to get better because he actually worked on things and unfortunately he's dead now.

 

If someone really wants to improve they can make the changes.

Isn’t that a problem with golf in particular is that one person’s better is any other person’s poison and even GREAT golf coaches like Butch Harmon don’t “fix” every pro golfer that he has in his stable. 
 

I think we are too complex of creatures to just put a blanket statement of “Everyone wants a quick fix” so hardly anyone gets better after 3 years of playing. 

[Nels55]

If Doc Wright and Larry Rinker are correct then early extension is the correct movement pattern for most recreational golfers and 'fixing' early extension is applying the Band-Aids and making the swing much more difficult.  Rinker claims that conventional teaching ruined his PGA Tour career. 

 

It's just possible that Jack Nicklaus, Payne Stewart and other upper core players were not 'managing early extension' but were in fact swinging in the way that was or is best for them.  

[SNIPERBBB]

8 minutes ago, airjammer said:

Isn’t that a problem with golf in particular is that one person’s better is any other person’s poison and even GREAT golf coaches like Butch Harmon don’t “fix” every pro golfer that he has in his stable. 
 

I think we are too complex of creatures to just put a blanket statement of “Everyone wants a quick fix” so hardly anyone gets better after 3 years of playing. 

It's the problem with society as a whole. That's why people that are actually good at something are either seen as freaks of nature or someone that won the lottery.

 

We might be complex creatures but we're also pathetically predictable.

 

I would wager that many instructors would love to be able to vet students before they take them in by something other than the size of the wallet of the student.

 

[mshills]

32 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Problem is most people dont really want to get better. They want to hit the lottery with a lesson or tip, they dont want to work for it. Look at the Haney Project. Out of that whole thing, he might of gotten one person to get better because he actually worked on things and unfortunately he's dead now.

 

If someone really wants to improve they can make the changes.

 

"Fix your slice with this ONE LITTLE SECRET!"

 

YouTube is the devil for golfers.

 

After a long time in and around the game, I've decided that players really aren't that ignorant.  They know what it takes to get better, but they don't want to or are not able to devote the time and work.  Complaining is easier.  And there is also a large number of players who get their fun from the constant chase of the next "swing tip" -- that process is more fun for them than actually getting better.  

[Nels55]

2 minutes ago, mshills said:

 

"Fix your slice with this ONE LITTLE SECRET!"

 

YouTube is the devil for golfers.

 

After a long time in and around the game, I've decided that players really aren't that ignorant.  They know what it takes to get better, but they don't want to or are not able to devote the time and work.  Complaining is easier.  And there is also a large number of players who get their fun from the constant chase of the next "swing tip" -- that process is more fun for them than actually getting better.  

In my experience I would say that the opposite is true as most golfers think that they know what is wrong with their swings but are completely wrong in their assessment and have no idea what they need to do to get better.  

[ThePaineTrain]

16 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

In my experience I would say that the opposite is true as most golfers think that they know what is wrong with their swings but are completely wrong in their assessment and have no idea what they need to do to get better.  

I think if you asked the vast majority of golfers what their own golf swing even is, like what happens during it and what's supposed to happen during it, they would not be able to give you a coherent answer. Any individual swing is essentially a black box movement even to the person doing it before you get into the fact that different instructors and professionals over the years have vastly different working models and theories of their own. Then you get into picking and choosing tips from all these different sources and trying to hodge podge them together

 

It's like going to a buffet that has food from every country in the world and slapping 100 random items on a plate and then being confused why they don't taste well together. Maybe that plate of spaghetti with a side of lobster tail just needs a couple spicy tuna rolls to really come together, or maybe it's time to find a chef to prepare a more coherent menu for you.

Edited October 3, 2023 by ThePaineTrain

[Hidraw]

Why is EE bad mechanics?
Because it is bad geometry and also bad dynamics.