Why is early extension bad mechanics

[betarhoalphadelta]

40 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

If Doc Wright and Larry Rinker are correct then early extension is the correct movement pattern for most recreational golfers and 'fixing' early extension is applying the Band-Aids and making the swing much more difficult.  Rinker claims that conventional teaching ruined his PGA Tour career. 

 

It's just possible that Jack Nicklaus, Payne Stewart and other upper core players were not 'managing early extension' but were in fact swinging in the way that was or is best for them.  

 

Question--would you say that Wright/Rinker would have this belief, but at the very same time, think that most recreational golfers are EE-ing too much? 

 

Monte says it upthread, for some golfers, the correct amount of EE might be "some" rather than "none". But that for a very large number of recreational amateur golfers, their current amount of EE is "too much".

[angler99]

I'm 42 and started working on eliminating EE for the last three years through multiple instructors. All but one instructor seemed to know the cause of my EE and I would fix that cause, but still had EE. However, while those issues that I fixed didn't eliminate the EE, ball striking got better and better. In retrospect, each of these issues were worked on out of order. While I was wildly frustrated at the time that each of these fixes didn't eliminate the EE, the process has really been good for my game and after my last lesson, I kind of realized that I should have been working on that issue first and then the other things I had been working on before. After this last lesson, I still have EE but it's so much less than when I started this journey and my ball striking has never been better.

 

Even if you can't eliminate EE, I think it's worth working on as fixing many of the issues has really helped my swing path, club face control, consistency, and I have gained a TON of distance across all clubs in the bag.

 

I'm sort of at a point where I'm ok if I never eliminate it fully, but I'm going to try to keep working on it as it seems to be getting better and it's helping my golf swing regardless

[Zitlow]

I don't know how anyone could say standing up at impact with square hips and shoulders is good mechanics. 

 

For every action there's an opposite and equal reaction. Unless you are countering the weight of the clubhead pulling away from the center you'll be playing at golf not playing golf.  

 

Mike Dunaway

 

 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

Most tour players are mid, which means you can tell them anything and they can make it work.  Most golfers are upper.  I’m an upper……and I’d bet Bernhard is an upper.

[MannJ]

Here is where I’m currently at with it, but I think it’s more severe with the driver maybe 

[MannJ]

From the post I’ve read, I believe I am probably upper core swing?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

If someone really wants to improve they can make the changes.

(Nodding furiously)

 

But it may take a long time if they do, and they're almost guaranteed to suck when they play as they try to incorporate the new motion.  Yep.

 

Maybe being too busy at work to squeeze 4-5 golf hours in, has its upside after all....?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

If Doc Wright and Larry Rinker are correct then early extension is the correct movement pattern for most recreational golfers and 'fixing' early extension is applying the Band-Aids and making the swing much more difficult.

Nels, I don't know, but might that be because most golfers (present company excepted) have no idea how the lower body is supposed to move and pressure is supposed to shift back & forth in the swing?

 

I remember my first recent lesson, and being shown how my pelvis was supposed to move felt for all the world like the reverse pivot I got yelled at for, some 20+ years before.  Then AMG came out with their Ams move this way/Pros move that way (Granted, that could be the title of half their videos...) and Monte's power shift sealed it. 

 

Zero clue until those teaching moments and drills.  Without them, I pretty much had to goat-hump to hit the ball.

 

So if one does learn the more efficient way of right hip back and up, shift, left hip back, right leg through, does EE still follow as a correct movement pattern? 

[Pepperturbo]

5 hours ago, MannJ said:

I think where I have gone wrong is recording my swing, drawing a line down the butt line, and considered the swing a failure if my butt came off that line. Flawed thinking.

I can agree that eliminating all of the space the arms should travel through at impact doesn’t leave room for the best possible ball striking. 
The degree of my ee right now is probably workable. However, I think I can and should work on sequencing in the swing. I don’t think that would even be a major change. 
Thanks all for the thoughtful replies. 

A great many people today record their swings, look for perfection, visit DB's like here, for advice, only to cause more serious problems. 

 

My suggestion contact @MonteScheinblum, listen closely and practice what he tells you, a lot.

 

I have been playing for 30+ yrs, and self-taught, using 3 books by Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus and Nick Faldo.  Goal was to mimic their swings, and with a lot of hard work, got it right.  Yet, a year into learning, I took a set of lessons from a named instructor to insure my mechanics were spot on. 

 

I never suggest to anyone to be self-taught, too many things can go wrong before right. 

 

Good luck.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

(Nodding furiously)

 

But it may take a long time if they do, and they're almost guaranteed to suck when they play as they try to incorporate the new motion.  Yep.

 

Maybe being too busy at work to squeeze 4-5 golf hours in, has its upside after all....?

It doesn't take long to make the change. For it to actually stick to where you're not having to do drills to reinforce the changes.  

 

You're always going to fight natural tendencies. Hopefully coach/player can recognize the tendencies and have a plan in place for when they start to creep back into the swing. 

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, MannJ said:

Here is where I’m currently at with it, but I think it’s more severe with the driver maybe 

 

You would need to film with your feet square to the camera, basically camera on hands at address and feet square. Otherwise it won't be accurate.

 

You are lacking the side bend into the ball, DJ is on the extreme end. You have no side bend into the ball and have thrown out your arms, have no right arm bend left at impact. These aren't easy changes to work on so best to work with a pro.

Edited October 3, 2023 by MK7Golf21

[Mike_C]

 

 

 

 

 

For me, EE was a reaction to other issues.  It probably started when I was younger and hurt my back, I probably started to play with less bend to protect my back.

 

But several years ago I was obsessed with keeping my spine tilt, without really knowing what was going on.  I started bending over more and more at address.  I had also had lost weight and got the shanks, and thought I needed to move further from the ball.

 

What this did was get me way off balance, and the ONLY way to swing and not basically either fall down or miss the ball entirely when I swung was to early extend a lot. 

 

I do some simple drills that help me when I start to feel EE is creeping in.  I will hit balls and

exaggerate my address position to almost stand straight up, then move into a tilt on the downswing, almost doing the reverse of early extension.   And sometimes I will practice standing really close to the ball, to get the sense that my hips have to stay back to make room for my arms to come down. 

 

2 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

My suggestion contact @MonteScheinblum, listen closely and practice what he tells you, a lot.

 

I personally have never taken a lesson from Monte, but his YouTube videos from several years ago helped me immensely, and opened my eyes to the fact the EE was a reaction to other faults and/or physical limitations.   

[MannJ]

1 hour ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

You would need to film with your feet square to the camera, basically camera on hands at address and feet square. Otherwise it won't be accurate.

 

You are lacking the side bend into the ball, DJ is on the extreme end. You have no side bend into the ball and have thrown out your arms, have no right arm bend left at impact. These aren't easy changes to work on so best to work with a pro.

I’m pretty sure the arms should be straight right after impact. I’m not sure on the side bend thing. I don’t see how that’s a desirable move to purposely make. Pelvic tilt might be limiting my turn. That’s the rabbit hole I’ve decided to go down. 
I do understand the insistence on getting help from a professional, but my game isn’t that bad, and it’s fun learning this on my own. I had never heard of ee until earlier this year, so this whole thread was just a way of learning more. Again though, I appreciate the thoughts. I am glad I joined this site, it’s very informative. 

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Question--would you say that Wright/Rinker would have this belief, but at the very same time, think that most recreational golfers are EE-ing too much? 

 

Monte says it upthread, for some golfers, the correct amount of EE might be "some" rather than "none". But that for a very large number of recreational amateur golfers, their current amount of EE is "too much".

Good question and I don't know if EE is a too much for a very large number of golfers.  I would trust Monte's analysis of any particular swing.  For sure vertical force needs to peak at the right point in the downswing and if it is early or late then the swing is less efficient.  Also the Wright Balance system consists of a number of tests to determine a person's core which can be extreme lower to extreme upper like Larry Rinker.  I think they divide it into 9 zones or maybe more?  Larry Rinker will teach very different mechanics to an extreme lower core golfer then he will to extreme upper core like himself. 

 

Anyway I am simply raising the possibility that EE as diagnosed by the OP may not actually be a problem.  LOL I can say for sure that I don't do much swing analysis of other golfer's videos for a reason.    

[Nels55]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

I don't know how anyone could say standing up at impact with square hips and shoulders is good mechanics. 

Admitting that you don't know is the first step towards understanding!

[betarhoalphadelta]

25 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Good question and I don't know if EE is a too much for a very large number of golfers.  I would trust Monte's analysis of any particular swing.  For sure vertical force needs to peak at the right point in the downswing and if it is early or late then the swing is less efficient.  Also the Wright Balance system consists of a number of tests to determine a person's core which can be extreme lower to extreme upper like Larry Rinker.  I think they divide it into 9 zones or maybe more?  Larry Rinker will teach very different mechanics to an extreme lower core golfer then he will to extreme upper core like himself. 

 

Anyway I am simply raising the possibility that EE as diagnosed by the OP may not actually be a problem.  LOL I can say for sure that I don't do much swing analysis of other golfer's videos for a reason.    

 

Yep. And I'm local to Monte so I'll go back to him again once I ingrain the last thing he taught me 😉

 

I just thought the tone of your post that I replied to was "well, EE isn't a problem for some golfers." Which I'm not sure the folks you talked about would agree with. 

 

My understanding of what I read here is that for some golfers (i.e. upper core), a certain amount of EE is inevitable and trying to get rid of it entirely will be counterproductive. And I recall a thread here (that I couldn't find) showing some actual PGAT golfers who had a degree of EE and obviously it's working for them. 

 

But moving from that to an idea of "don't worry about EE" is where I think the logical leap comes, that I saw (to an extent) in your post, which is why I asked the question. Because for some extreme goat humpers, they have to reduce the EE to get into a functional swing. And IMHO that's a significant percentage of golfers...

[KD1]

@MonteScheinblum out of curiosity do you have any dtl from your long drive days?

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

@MonteScheinblum out of curiosity do you have any dtl from your long drive days?

I do.  One.  As you can see, my body got extremely contorted in order to get wide open and maintain tush line….as that’s apparently what you’re supposed to do.

 

Had severe knee and back problems in those days.  Had knee surgery earlier that year and my back always hurt.

 

My back still hurts because I’m old and fat, but it hurts less now than it did then….when I was 25.

 

My urge to push my pelvis back too much and lock out my right knee persists even today.

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[KD1]

9 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I do.  One.  As you can see, my body got extremely contorted in order to get wide open and maintain tush line….as that’s apparently what you’re supposed to do.

 

Had severe knee and back problems in those days.  Had knee surgery earlier that year and my back always hurt.

 

My back still hurts because I’m old and fat, but it hurts less now than it did then….when I was 25.

 

My urge to push my pelvis back too much and lock out my right knee persists even today.

 

 

 

With the knowledge that you have now could you have still won the title with a more "pain free" swing? With a little more ee? Or is that the price to pay?

 

(I realize this is irrelevant to weekend golfers. Just curious)

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

With the knowledge that you have now could you have still won the title with a more "pain free" swing? With a little more ee? Or is that the price to pay?

 

(I realize this is irrelevant to weekend golfers. Just curious)

I probably could have picked up a few mph and would have been a more consistent driver and better wedge player if I knew what I know now.

 

 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

30 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

My urge to push my pelvis back too much and lock out my right knee persists even today.

(Since we've hijacked the thread...)

 

How much, is too much?  Or is this a, "It depends; post a swing," question?

 

And locking out the right knee (which I persist in doing) is bad because?

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

(Since we've hijacked the thread...)

 

How much, is too much?  Or is this a, "It depends; post a swing," question?

 

And locking out the right knee (which I persist in doing) is bad because?

Yes depends, but that was too much for any swing, IMO.

 

Bad for your knee the way I did it and it tends to sling your hand and arm path out too much.

[MK7Golf21]

2 hours ago, MannJ said:

I’m pretty sure the arms should be straight right after impact. I’m not sure on the side bend thing. I don’t see how that’s a desirable move to purposely make. Pelvic tilt might be limiting my turn. That’s the rabbit hole I’ve decided to go down. 
I do understand the insistence on getting help from a professional, but my game isn’t that bad, and it’s fun learning this on my own. I had never heard of ee until earlier this year, so this whole thread was just a way of learning more. Again though, I appreciate the thoughts. I am glad I joined this site, it’s very informative. 

 

your camera angle is off so it's pretty hard to tell what is going on in that swing really. You have the camera kind of behind you pointing out to the right.

 

By more side bend I'm just saying you are basically standing straight up in that impact photo. It wouldn't hurt to work on getting more shallow with the clubhead on the downswing so you can stay a little more bent over through impact. Definitely don't over do it, especially since it doesn't look like you are 21 anymore.

[Nels55]

4 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Yep. And I'm local to Monte so I'll go back to him again once I ingrain the last thing he taught me 😉

 

I just thought the tone of your post that I replied to was "well, EE isn't a problem for some golfers." Which I'm not sure the folks you talked about would agree with. 

 

My understanding of what I read here is that for some golfers (i.e. upper core), a certain amount of EE is inevitable and trying to get rid of it entirely will be counterproductive. And I recall a thread here (that I couldn't find) showing some actual PGAT golfers who had a degree of EE and obviously it's working for them. 

 

But moving from that to an idea of "don't worry about EE" is where I think the logical leap comes, that I saw (to an extent) in your post, which is why I asked the question. Because for some extreme goat humpers, they have to reduce the EE to get into a functional swing. And IMHO that's a significant percentage of golfers...

Well, I guess that if we define 'early' as too early then anyone who has early extension needs to get that fixed. Definition of terms is often problematic in golf and I believe that EE is often  misapplied.  I believe that Larry Rinker's swing is not early extension though it might look like it to some.  Rinker does mention that getting open and maintaining tush line are not correct for upper core golfers which is where I was going in my post.  I see some or maybe a lot golf instruction as over doing it and 'fixing' an EE problem that does not exist.

 

Here are a few golfers who might be accused of EE:

I don't believe that those swings need EE correction.

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Well, I guess that if we define 'early' as too early then anyone who has early extension needs to get that fixed. Definition of terms is often problematic in golf and I believe that EE is often  misapplied.  I believe that Larry Rinker's swing is not early extension though it might look like it to some.  Rinker does mention that getting open and maintaining tush line are not correct for upper core golfers which is where I was going in my post.  I see some or maybe a lot golf instruction as over doing it and 'fixing' an EE problem that does not exist.

 

Here are a few golfers who might be accused of EE:

I don't believe that those swings need EE correction.

This is one of the reasons why knowledgeable instructors say EE, in and of itself, is not a swing fault.  
 

In every case, it’s a solution. 

[MBAndrews21]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:05 PM, MonteScheinblum said:

Proper sequencing of the body and the resulting proper loading and unloading of the wrists is where most club speed comes from.  The more EE you have , the worse those things become.  Some EE is ok and some is better for some people, but in excess you will lose club speed, dispersion control or both.

 

Excess is also bad for your back.  

 

Thats why.

 

 

Why is some EE better in some cases? 

 

EDIT: Sorry, looks like you might’ve answered that already.

Edited October 4, 2023 by MBAndrews21

[MPStrat]

15 hours ago, MannJ said:

I’m pretty sure the arms should be straight right after impact. I’m not sure on the side bend thing. I don’t see how that’s a desirable move to purposely make. Pelvic tilt might be limiting my turn. That’s the rabbit hole I’ve decided to go down. 
I do understand the insistence on getting help from a professional, but my game isn’t that bad, and it’s fun learning this on my own. I had never heard of ee until earlier this year, so this whole thread was just a way of learning more. Again though, I appreciate the thoughts. I am glad I joined this site, it’s very informative. 

Everything he said to you is accurate and good advice.

 

It really depends on how much you want to improve and how much time you have. 

 

Among other things, EE is bad because you can have an extremely erratic start line coupled with low point issues. Depending on the severity of the EE and the golfers own innate ability, it can be manageable sometimes even at a high level but it is by far the exception among the greatest ballstrikers in history. 

 

What everyone calls EE can be a few different things.
 

The first two are 2d observations of coming off of a tush line and/or head line. Many pros come off the tush line with driver and part of it is because it’s a lot harder to stay on the tush line when the feet are closed at address.
 

The second can also be observed through the aforementioned and is a severe right arm-thrust stand up move. This is more of what you have. 
 

Coming off the tush line a little doesn’t have to be the end of the world. At the same time, overwhelmingly, the players who can be observed maintaining their 2d spine angle are generally much better ballstrikers. They have better control of their start lines and low point. It’s always possible to find exceptions to this, but keeping the 2d spine angle isn’t just an aesthetic pursuit, there are true benefits. This isn’t going to be possible for everyone, but I have found the teachers who value and can teach these things are much better overall than those who will accept and work around the stand up thrust move. 

Edited October 4, 2023 by MPStrat

[MannJ]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Everything he said to you is accurate and good advice.

 

It really depends on how much you want to improve and how much time you have. 

 

Among other things, EE is bad because you can have an extremely erratic start line coupled with low point issues. Depending on the severity of the EE and the golfers own innate ability, it can be manageable sometimes even at a high level but it is by far the exception among the greatest ballstrikers in history. 

 

What everyone calls EE can be a few different things.
 

The first two are 2d observations of coming off of a tush line and/or head line. Many pros come off the tush line with driver and part of it is because it’s a lot harder to stay on the tush line when the feet are closed at address.
 

The second can also be observed through the aforementioned and is a severe right arm-thrust stand up move. This is more of what you have. 
 

Coming off the tush line a little doesn’t have to be the end of the world. At the same time, overwhelmingly, the players who can be observed maintaining their 2d spine angle are generally much better ballstrikers. They have better control of their start lines and low point. It’s always possible to find exceptions to this, but keeping the 2d spine angle isn’t just an aesthetic pursuit, there are true benefits. This isn’t going to be possible for everyone, but I have found the teachers who value and can teach these things are much better overall than those who will accept and work around the stand up thrust move. 

I looked at it closely yesterday and my right arm does seem to straighten a bit early, and a little early release. All probably necessary for me to hit the ball as I am straightening up at impact, head moving up and back. 
I had some success keeping the ball more covered with my chest and more bent over when I began a slight downward move with my upper body near the top of the backswing. Instead of the head moving up and back, it moved down and back, keeping me in a better posture. The thing I wonder is if I can keep the head from moving backwards in the downswing. It seems to move backwards as my hips go into opening. 
Any thoughts?

[Glock917]

I think of early extension as more of a technique or mechanics do to a certain thing to my path and face. I would not call it bad, to me its something i employ to expose as much loft as possible.

 

I obviously use it for shorter shots and get loft to try to strike it as inefficiently as possible and would not try to hit my driver doing this. 

 

Doing this and the other extreme end really slow can give you better feels. To no surprise a lot of time and repition is going to be needed to get it down. 

[MPStrat]

6 hours ago, MannJ said:

I looked at it closely yesterday and my right arm does seem to straighten a bit early, and a little early release. All probably necessary for me to hit the ball as I am straightening up at impact, head moving up and back. 
I had some success keeping the ball more covered with my chest and more bent over when I began a slight downward move with my upper body near the top of the backswing. Instead of the head moving up and back, it moved down and back, keeping me in a better posture. The thing I wonder is if I can keep the head from moving backwards in the downswing. It seems to move backwards as my hips go into opening. 
Any thoughts?

You will have to continue to experiment with the sequence to find what ties it together. 
 

Did you post an actual swing? If you did I missed it. 
 

It is difficult to force the body into positions if the levers aren’t operating in a way that incentivizes it.
 

In your case, the body might also respond to your intent with the right arm. If you thrust with the right arm, your body has to stand up to make room. If you stay calmer and more structured with the right arm the body will have to have to maintain some amount of inclination and contribute more efficiently to your overall motion.
 

I think what you will find as you’re working through this, is that there are two challenges..

 

1. overcoming misconceptions that make maintaining inclination impossible

 

2. Building a swing from start to finish that incentivizes maintaining inclination 

 

if your swing doesn’t really change for the better, you are missing one of those. Many people don’t get past number 1 and get lost in the sea of opinions on the internet.