Porzak Hip Bump

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, 93tilInfinity said:

Not hip bump related but this is the active Porzak topic so I'll post here:

"Starting the transition we are pushing from the inside heel of our trail leg to open up hips."

 

Direct quote from Porzak. Is that feel something that's common or more specific to him?

It’s a feel but I wouldn’t say it’s common to him. Theres videos where he talks about the left hip going back. 

[Carlito]

Did I see a little hip bump there?

 

 

[Duffer Mark]

Is Dr. Greg Rose advocating for something very similar to a hip bump here (at ~19m)?

 

 

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

Is Dr. Greg Rose advocating for something very similar to a hip bump here (at ~19m)?

 

Not really, no. Mike was getting his right hip high. It's closer to the opposite.

[RayPlan]

Whenever I've tried the Porzak hip bump as he describes it, it felt weird. So I started playing with feet placement in my stance and got in a position that seems similar.

 

Is there any functional difference between doing the bump as he describes vs. this:

 

1. Stand with your feet together

2. Move your lead foot a little bit toward the target

3. Staying centered,move your trail foot significantly farther away from the target

 

So basically, stand with feet together, take tiny step left, big step right, ending up with an asymmetrical stance.

 

I don't know if it's exactly the same, but it does give me the bracing feeling against the right leg when turning.

 

Anyone better versed in Porzak'a techniques able to weigh in?

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Whenever I've tried the Porzak hip bump as he describes it, it felt weird. So I started playing with feet placement in my stance and got in a position that seems similar.

 

Is there any functional difference between doing the bump as he describes vs. this:

 

1. Stand with your feet together

2. Move your lead foot a little bit toward the target

3. Staying centered,move your trail foot significantly farther away from the target

 

So basically, stand with feet together, take tiny step left, big step right, ending up with an asymmetrical stance.

 

I don't know if it's exactly the same, but it does give me the bracing feeling against the right leg when turning.

 

Anyone better versed in Porzak'a techniques able to weigh in?

two reasons for it geeking weird. 1) it’s because you’ve never done it so it’s going to feel weird, as would doing anything proper in the setup or swing that you do because you’ve been doing it wrong until now 2) you weren’t doing it properly which is a common theme 
 

That’s not the same thing as the hip bump, all you did was find a stance width. What you described is how people work on the stance width with different clubs.

 

Driver for example could be just rotate lead foot open a bit and take a wide step with trail foot, a mid iron would be something like a 1/2 step with lead foot and little more than 1/2 step with trail foot.

 

porzak has a hip bump with every club and there is a stance width for each club.

 

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Whenever I've tried the Porzak hip bump as he describes it, it felt weird.

If a move felt weird to you and you immediately abandoned it to create something else then there is a fair chance that that line of thinking will continue sabotaging you as you're working on your swing. An immediate aversion to "weird" is an instinct that golfers need to unlearn for two reasons:

1) The golf swing is weird, much of it is unintuitive and weird feeling when learning to do it correctly. 
2) Weird is "different" and different has a far better chance of being "better" than the comfortable status quo.

Tiger Woods said he felt like he "couldn't hit the ball" when Hank Haney weakened his left hand grip to the 1-knuckle position he used during that era...it felt too weird. He went on to have the best iron striking period of his career statistically with that adjustment. 

There is also a pretty decent chance (no offense) that you didn't do it correctly to begin with....just because the entire concept of pressure shifting, rotation, and "bumping" with the pelvis like the pros do is a pretty unintuitive learned set of moves. The sooner you abandon the concept of "weird" as a barometer for right/wrong, the easier time you'll have making changes. 
 

Edited January 10 by Valtiel

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

two reasons for it geeking weird. 1) it’s because you’ve never done it so it’s going to feel weird, as would doing anything proper in the setup or swing that you do because you’ve been doing it wrong until now 2) you weren’t doing it properly which is a common theme 

Almost certainly doing it wrong. I also didn't make a real effort to adopt it when I first encountered it, because I was trying to stick to only Monte's material. I wanted to avoid mixing and matching stuff like I'd been doing before.

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

That’s not the same thing as the hip bump, all you did was find a stance width. What you described is how people work on the stance width with different clubs.

Ah.

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Driver for example could be just rotate lead foot open a bit and take a wide step with trail foot, a mid iron would be something like a 1/2 step with lead foot and little more than 1/2 step with trail foot.

Good to know, thanks.

 

16 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

If a move felt weird to you and you immediately abandoned it to create something else then there is a fair chance that that line of thinking will continue sabotaging you as you're working on your swing. An immediate aversion to "weird" is an instinct that golfers need to unlearn for two reasons:

1) The golf swing is weird, much of it is unintuitive and weird feeling when learning to do it correctly. 
2) Weird is "different" and different has a far better chance of being "better" than the comfortable status quo.

Tiger Woods said he felt like he "couldn't hit the ball" when Hank Haney weakened his left hand grip to the 1-knuckle position he used during that era...it felt too weird. He went on to have the best iron striking period of his career statistically with that adjustment. 

There is also a pretty decent chance (no offense) that you didn't do it correctly to begin with....just because the entire concept of pressure shifting, rotation, and "bumping" with the pelvis like the pros do is a pretty unintuitive learned move. The sooner you abandon your concept of "weird" as a barometer for right/wrong, the easier time you'll have making changes. 
 

Previously, I wasn't making a real effort to incorporate it, just saw it, tried it out a few times, but decided against it, since I was already working on other things and wasn't sure if it would fit. I was trying to exercise good judgment and not get distracted. You know I'm not the type of person to shy away from weird feelings in the golf swing!

 

I guess the question is, any reason not to try it? I gave it a few more tries and it looks like it might help some of the issues you pointed out.

[Valtiel]

Just now, RayPlan said:

I guess the question is, any reason not to try it? I gave it a few more tries and it looks like it might help some of the issues you pointed out.

The more important question is "what fundamental is this addressing?" and having a good answer to that. In this case it's addressing the concept of proper pelvic rotation and pressure shifting which is something you've struggled with. The excessive lateral sliding he mentioned in the video back on the first page is exactly what you were doing in a video you shared that you felt was the correct move (it wasn't obviously). So the underlying concept Porzac is getting at is simply one of fundamentally correct pelvic rotation/shifting. So no, you shouldn't just "try it" necessarily, rather understand the nature of the underlying concept and why fundamentally it's an important thing to understand. 

[RayPlan]

21 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

The more important question is "what fundamental is this addressing?" and having a good answer to that. In this case it's addressing the concept of proper pelvic rotation and pressure shifting which is something you've struggled with. The excessive lateral sliding he mentioned in the video back on the first page is exactly what you were doing in a video you shared that you felt was the correct move (it wasn't obviously). So the underlying concept Porzac is getting at is simply one of fundamentally correct pelvic rotation/shifting. So no, you shouldn't just "try it" necessarily, rather understand the nature of the underlying concept and why fundamentally it's an important thing to understand. 

My impression (thanks to help from you and others) was that it would directly address some of my issues, but I've become a bit shy about picking up things from YouTube videos. To the point where I might see something and go "oh, maybe that will help me," then remember what got me into trouble in the first place.

 

I've learned valuable things from my time here, but not necessarily enough to assess whether something like this is appropriate to take on, since I don't know what I don't know. I could imagine a hypothetical where this move pairs with something else Porzak teaches that I haven't seen, or which is incompatible with No Turn Cast, so adopting it could lead to confusion on my part. 

 

Those are the sorts of considerations on my mind as I approach things like this now. But I think this one might be useful to me and worth the effort, given the underlying fundamentals and my specific issues.

Edited January 10 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

7 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Almost certainly doing it wrong. I also didn't make a real effort to adopt it when I first encountered it, because I was trying to stick to only Monte's material. I wanted to avoid mixing and matching stuff like I'd been doing before

It’s his way of setting hips and spine tilt. There’s some tilt in every club. Th shorter the club the less tilt. 

[RayPlan]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s his way of setting hips and spine tilt. There’s some tilt in every club. Th shorter the club the less tilt. 

My only prior notion about tilt was the vague idea that I needed to angle my whole upper body away from the target with driver so I could "hit up on the ball," so it's been an element I don't know much about.

 

Since I've been following Porzak's setup advice, it seems natural to add this, too. 

[glk]

16 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

My only prior notion about tilt was the vague idea that I needed to angle my whole upper body away from the target with driver so I could "hit up on the ball," so it's been an element I don't know much about.

 

Since I've been following Porzak's setup advice, it seems natural to add this, too. 

Do not angle your upper body away from the target - period.   The reverse K setup position is a swing killer.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CKMNiPXnJKZ/

 

I see little value in a static setup hip bump forward but do see a dynamic shift forward in some version of a swing trigger which gets more force under the lead leg to start the swing with a shift as very important.

Edited January 10 by glk

[me05501]

43 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

My only prior notion about tilt was the vague idea that I needed to angle my whole upper body away from the target with driver so I could "hit up on the ball," so it's been an element I don't know much about.

 

Since I've been following Porzak's setup advice, it seems natural to add this, too. 

 

That idea doesn't really fit with the Porzak setup. The width of your stance plus the lateral hip bump puts your body in the position that you want with driver. 

He also emphasizes making sure your head doesn't move toward the target side during a driver swing. That may be the only difference in the driver swing vs. the iron swing as he teaches it.

Driver swing: knife against left temple

Iron swing: knife against right temple 

Edited January 10 by me05501

[GoGoErky]

41 minutes ago, glk said:

Do not angle your upper body away from the target - period.   The reverse K setup position is a swing killer.   https://www.instagram.com/p/CKMNiPXnJKZ/

 

I see little value in a static setup hip bump forward but do see a dynamic shift forward in some version of a swing trigger which gets more force under the lead leg to start the swing with a shift as very important.

Porzak’s belief and teaching is that the upper body rotation causes the shift to happen and not the more dynamic shift.

 

The bump creates a post with the lead leg as he calls it. 

[glk]

11 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Porzak’s belief and teaching is that the upper body rotation causes the shift to happen and not the more dynamic shift.

 

The bump creates a post with the lead leg as he calls it. 

It doesn't.    He has a lot of good stuff but not this.   I can rotate my upper body and arms all day and I will not shift - he is basically teaching a version of stack and tilt if that is the purpose.    even if you did somehow cause a shift (which would mostly be due to leaning the upper body away while rotating which leads to other issues) the sequence is incorrect - the shift and turn to start are separate - first shift then turn - just like in the transition, shift then turn not together.   Can people do this a play good golf, even tour level, certainly but why teach something that, as monte says, it not what the majority of tour swing do (rhetorical)?

Edited January 10 by glk

[GoGoErky]

8 minutes ago, glk said:

It doesn't.    He has a lot of good stuff but not this.   I can rotate my upper body and arms all day and I will not shift - he is basically teaching a version of stack and tilt if that is the purpose.    even if you did somehow cause a shift (which would mostly be due to leaning the upper body away while rotating which leads to other issues) the sequence is incorrect - the shift and turn to start are separate - first shift then turn - just like in the transition, shift then turn not together.

It’s why he shows what he wants the upper body to rotate and when done properly key word properly pressure shifts into trail side early

[me05501]

8 minutes ago, glk said:

It doesn't.    He has a lot of good stuff but not this.   I can rotate my upper body and arms all day and I will not shift - he is basically teaching a version of stack and tilt if that is the purpose.    even if you did somehow cause a shift (which would mostly be due to leaning the upper body away while rotating which leads to other issues) the sequence is incorrect - the shift and turn to start are separate - first shift then turn - just like in the transition, shift then turn not together.

 

If you hold a club in front of your chest and rotate your core as far as possible and you don't feel any pressure shift under your feet you're likely doing something to prevent that pressure shift from happening. 

 

I don't think Porzak is teaching stack and tilt. He's teaching how to rotate without swaying. 

[RayPlan]

For the record, I stopped trying to tilt like that with the driver (upper body away from target), I was describing a past misconception.

[glk]

33 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s why he shows what he wants the upper body to rotate and when done properly key word properly pressure shifts into trail side early

Pressure isn't the issue - force applied by the trail leg is.  Pressure doesn't show how much force is being applied.   I can move pressure without effectively changing the force that I am apply with my legs.   For example, pressure mats show at the top that more pressure is under the trail foot than the lead foot - say 80/20 - but that reveals nothing about how the force is moving - the force at the top is around .8 body weight in good swings as one starts to unweight the body around p5 and continue until the downswing starts.    Yes force shifts quickly to the trail foot and so would pressure but pressure alone gives an incomplete picture of what needs to happen.

 

See it a lot with folks, in one way or another, trying to avoid a shift and end up doing some version of a spin.   Worse case they stay too much on their lead foot best case they are Matt Kuchar (which certainly isn't a bad place to be but is his motion really teachable)

 

This is the general vertical force pattern.    

Edited January 10 by glk

[me05501]

11 minutes ago, glk said:

Pressure isn't the issue - force applied by the trail leg is.  Pressure doesn't show how much force is being applied.   I can move pressure without effectively changing the force that I am apply with my legs.   For example, pressure mats show at the top that more pressure is under the trail foot than the lead foot - say 80/20 - but that reveals nothing about how the force is moving - the force at the top is around .8 body weight in good swings as one starts to unweight the body around p5 and continue until the downswing starts.    Yes force shifts quickly to the trail foot and so would pressure but pressure alone gives an incomplete picture of what needs to happen.

 

See it a lot with folks, in one way or another, trying to avoid a shift and end up doing some version of a spin.   Worse case they stay too much on their lead foot best case they are Matt Kuchar (which certainly isn't a bad place to be but is his motion really teachable)

 

This is the general vertical force pattern.    

 

 

It's pretty obvious that Porzak and Kwon are coming at the swing from different angles.

 

Porzak teaches a ton of high-level college players and some who have made it to the PGA Tour which implies that his methods are valid and effective.

 

You can certainly choose a different philosophy to follow in pursuit of your own best game, but this thread would be better if you didn't bring a totally different philosophy into it. 

 

Edited January 10 by me05501

[RayPlan]

For reference, this video addresses the question and shows how it is not like stack and tilt. 

 

 

 

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, glk said:

Pressure isn't the issue - force applied by the trail leg is.  Pressure doesn't show how much force is being applied.   I can move pressure without effectively changing the force that I am apply with my legs.   For example, pressure mats show at the top that more pressure is under the trail foot than the lead foot - say 80/20 - but that reveals nothing about how the force is moving - the force at the top is around .8 body weight in good swings as one starts to unweight the body around p5 and continue until the downswing starts.    Yes force shifts quickly to the trail foot and so would pressure but pressure alone gives an incomplete picture of what needs to happen.

 

See it a lot with folks, in one way or another, trying to avoid a shift and end up doing some version of a spin.   Worse case they stay too much on their lead foot best case they are Matt Kuchar (which certainly isn't a bad place to be but is his motion really teachable)

 

This is the general vertical force pattern.    

Have you seen any pressure readings from Porzak or anyone of his students to see what forces are there or not?

 

I haven’t so chat say that there is or isn’t. There has to be some good forces applied since he has some very fast and long juniors and college golfers who are playing at very high level programs and making high level am tournaments and pro events.

 

He has a methodology that works and he was taught that by iirc Knudson.

 

We know you are more of a Kwon follower but to kind of poo poo on what Porzak teaches and his success is a little off base

[glk]

7 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Have you seen any pressure readings from Porzak or anyone of his students to see what forces are there or not?

 

I haven’t so chat say that there is or isn’t. There has to be some good forces applied since he has some very fast and long juniors and college golfers who are playing at very high level programs and making high level am tournaments and pro events.

 

He has a methodology that works and he was taught that by iirc Knudson.

 

We know you are more of a Kwon follower but to kind of poo poo on what Porzak teaches and his success is a little off base

I disagree with one thing - and AMG, Kwon, and other do too - he is teaching something most elite swings do not do.     Good question on where his data source is - folks like AMG are using 100s of 3d tour swings to draw their conclusions.   I'm not sure where the issue is - a divergent view is poo pooing?    Actually I tried to see Adam about 3 years ago on a visit to one of my sons who lives 15 minutes form where he teaches - too short notice so didn't happen and he is a bit pricey for me too for a one off lesson.     I have used and recommended anumber of his drills.

Edited January 10 by glk

[Duffer Mark]

Would AMG say not to do the Porzak hip bump?
 

 

[GoGoErky]

36 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

Would AMG say not to do the Porzak hip bump?
 

 

Yes if you follow or do a pressure shift that we see taught by AMG, Monte and some others. 
 

When you look at what Porzak teaches there isn’t an active pressure shift and for his philosophy the pressure shift is caused by the upper body rotating. He create  post and a brace. The lead hip is what he calls an anchor point and it doesn’t move that much from where it’s established at setup.

 

The thing is to look what things in the context of the swing philosophy. Porzak has some very highly accomplished students who have played in majors as juniors and other high level amateur events.

 

It’s not really different than AMG saying don’t setup like s&t. Different swing philosophies 

[KD1]

I'm probably reading into it but this video kind of felt like a response to AMG's:

 

 

And fwiw I think the hip bump they advocate is much more subtle than what AMG demonstrated.

 

(edit) Lots of pressure shifting going on here. From what I understand with S&T the pressure stays left the whole time??

Edited February 3 by KD1

[virtuoso]

On 1/10/2025 at 10:18 AM, RayPlan said:

For reference, this video addresses the question and shows how it is not like stack and tilt. 

 

 

 

Terrible.

[RayPlan]

19 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Terrible.

What makes you say that? 

 

I'm not defending the hip bump, I'm just curious. I've thought about it recently and I can't help but compare it to the "cheerleader move" described by AMG in the side bend video, since it involves moving the torso laterally without bending.

 

Also this is neither here nor there, but your avatar makes your posts more entertaining to me.

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

What makes you say that? 

 

I'm not defending the hip bump, I'm just curious. I've thought about it recently and I can't help but compare it to the "cheerleader move" described by AMG in the side bend video, since it involves moving the torso laterally without bending.

 

Also this is neither here nor there, but your avatar makes your posts more entertaining to me.

The way porzak demonstrates the pelvis movement is wrong.

 

The avatar is because @MonteScheinblum called me a mean girl one time and I agreed with him.....and her expression is perfect for how I feel when i read most threads.