Porzak Hip Bump

[iacas]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

(edit) Lots of pressure shifting going on here. From what I understand with S&T the pressure stays left the whole time??

 

Doesn't happen in almost any good player, and their S&T 2.0 DVDs are horrible. They might still think that your pressure or weight stays left, but it didn't in Grant Waite when we had him on SwingCatalyst, and it doesn't in any good player I've ever seen measured on good equipment (not the unsynchronized SAM BalanceLab stuff they were using).

 

29 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The way porzak demonstrates the pelvis movement is wrong.

 

Yep.

[KD1]

25 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The way porzak demonstrates the pelvis movement is wrong.

 

But can you elaborate? That's very black and white.

 

Gogo says he's got some high level players.  Is he limiting their potential by teaching the bump?

 

Like Ray I've got no dog in this fight, I'm just really curious.

 

Ps: only the sith deal in absolutes... they're also pretty mean.  Maybe you should consider your next avatar to be Darth Sidious 🙂

 

[KD1]

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Doesn't happen in almost any good player, and their S&T 2.0 DVDs are horrible. They might still think that your pressure or weight stays left, but it didn't in Grant Waite when we had him on SwingCatalyst, and it doesn't in any good player I've ever seen measured on good equipment (not the unsynchronized SAM BalanceLab stuff they were using).

 

Got it! To be clear you're just talking about s&t and not porzak or the porzak video I linked?

 

I don't have a great understanding of the s&t model... even though my previous coach has gone full s&t 😆. I probably misspoke in that comment you quoted, I know he did not teach all left side for full swings at least.

Edited February 3 by KD1

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, KD1 said:

Got it! To be clear you're just talking about s&t and not porzak or the porzak video I linked?

 

Yes, S&T. I don't watch much of anything Porzak has done (except to note that I've been on that range with a friend, and recorded videos there myself, several times), but I agree that his pelvis movements aren't the way most great players move their pelvis.

 

I have a hunch as to what you'd see from players actually doing what he's describing on a GEARS or something, but I don't have the time to watch a video just to comment on how wrong I think it is. 😄 This isn't Elite Golf or anything, here, folks. 😄 

[me05501]

Is golf the only game where middle-aged students are taught to replicate the movement patterns of insanely talented 25-year old athletes? Seems like it might be. 

 

Whether or not it matches what the pros do, this method can help mitigate a ton of very common issues like swaying vs. turning or swinging over the top.

 

There's a large "feel vs. real" dynamic here and it's the instructor's choice whether to dwell on that or just provide the "feels" that help people improve. 

There are plenty of instances of Adam saying "this is just a feel, you're not really going to be able to (fill in the blank), but this feel will help you prevent (fill in the blank)." It's just not something that's featured in every single clip released on his channel. 

 

He also eschews technology in lessons which is helpful to people who want to improve and don't have access to pressure plates or launch monitors. 

 

My guess is if you put him in that environment his data would be good, but I don't need to see that to learn from him. 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Is golf the only game where middle-aged students are taught to replicate the movement patterns of insanely talented 25-year old athletes? Seems like it might be. 

Nope. Guys I used to play baseball with in the late 2000s still take a trip to Florida for a spring training gathering and take batting lessons. Same movement pattens apply in the baseball swing regardless of age.

 

Like golf there are fundamentals of a baseball swing that every player does. 
 

Shooting a basketball is the same regardless of age. 
 

10 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Whether or not it matches what the pros do, this method can help mitigate a ton of very common issues like swaying vs. turning or swinging over the top.

 

 So to this comment you are correct making the same movement pattern will mitigate a bunch of issues. Doesn’t mean one will magically swing with the speed or efficiency of a pro, but the swing will be easier than having to make a bunch of manipulations.

 

12 minutes ago, me05501 said:

There's a large "feel vs. real" dynamic here and it's the instructor's choice whether to dwell on that or just provide the "feels" that help people improve. 

The feel should be created around the mechanics of the swing. Which is opposite of what many amateurs do with feel.

 

 

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Is golf the only game where middle-aged students are taught to replicate the movement patterns of insanely talented 25-year old athletes? Seems like it might be.

 

PGA Tour players often have simpler, easier, more efficient swings than amateurs who have more complicated, more timing-related, more compensation-laden swings.

 

They just don't often have the same speed as a 25-year-old PGA Tour player. That doesn't mean the core movements aren't the same.

 

49 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Whether or not it matches what the pros do, this method can help mitigate a ton of very common issues like swaying vs. turning or swinging over the top.

 

(Not talking about Porzak specifically because it's not like his method, from what little I know about it, is way out there or anything:) So why not go all the way to Jim Venetos? The answer is the same — albeit to a different degree — in that it's limiting. It's putting a ceiling on things, or forcing other compensations.

 

49 minutes ago, me05501 said:

There's a large "feel vs. real" dynamic here and it's the instructor's choice whether to dwell on that or just provide the "feels" that help people improve.

 

I don't think that covers it — I think people are looking at what he actually says that you do.

 

49 minutes ago, me05501 said:

He also eschews technology in lessons which is helpful to people who want to improve and don't have access to pressure plates or launch monitors.

 

I think the opposite is more true — measurements help the golfers. Just because you don't have a pressure plate at home doesn't mean you shouldn't use one in a lesson. Most golfers don't have a launch monitor at home: should I stop using my QuadMAX to show golfers how doing this shifts their path from 11.3° left to 2.7° right?

 

———————————

 

Edit to add what I think is "wrong" (a little) about what he's teaching in that video having skimmed it:

 

I don't watch much of his stuff, but in quickly watching that video, if you do what he says, you'd see the center of the pelvis move toward the ball and the target throughout the backswing. That's not what we see good players do. Also, golfers who angle their trail leg in the backswing tend to most easily roll their trail foot as the line of pressure (if you want to call it that) goes above and outside the foot, as our leg connects to our ankle, not to the ground.

Edited February 3 by iacas
Added stuff after —

[TheDeanAbides]

51 minutes ago, me05501 said:

Is golf the only game where middle-aged students are taught to replicate the movement patterns of insanely talented 25-year old athletes? Seems like it might be. 

 

Whether or not it matches what the pros do, this method can help mitigate a ton of very common issues like swaying vs. turning or swinging over the top.

 

There's a large "feel vs. real" dynamic here and it's the instructor's choice whether to dwell on that or just provide the "feels" that help people improve. 

There are plenty of instances of Adam saying "this is just a feel, you're not really going to be able to (fill in the blank), but this feel will help you prevent (fill in the blank)." It's just not something that's featured in every single clip released on his channel. 

 

He also eschews technology in lessons which is helpful to people who want to improve and don't have access to pressure plates or launch monitors. 

 

My guess is if you put him in that environment his data would be good, but I don't need to see that to learn from him. 

A smart man once said, "Argue for your limitations and sure enough they're yours." :)

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

But can you elaborate? That's very black and white.

 

Gogo says he's got some high level players.  Is he limiting their potential by teaching the bump?

 

Like Ray I've got no dog in this fight, I'm just really curious.

 

Ps: only the sith deal in absolutes... they're also pretty mean.  Maybe you should consider your next avatar to be Darth Sidious 🙂

 

You'll be directed to the Grovelers' Social Club shortly.

[Duffer Mark]

4 hours ago, KD1 said:

I'm probably reading into it but this video kind of felt like a response to AMG's:

 

 

Interesting they show golfers like Berkshire and McIlroy as examples, but those guys don't set-up with a pre-set hip bump. I also wonder if the kind of backswing Porzak and Sones demonstrate would lead some folks to turn their shoulders flat in the backswing and not be able to pressure shift well. And I'm not sure unweighting and GRFs are new.

 

Edit: Saw this in the comments. 

 

Viewer: How many pro's actually have this hip bump set up? I'm not sure if I'm seeing it in any of them...

 

PorzakGolf: Almost every single one! Outside of trail hip is always inside there right foot. It’s just natural to them. Ludvig, Scottie, Jason Day Tiger in his prime! They all have it!

 

Really?

Edited February 3 by Duffer Mark

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

But can you elaborate? That's very black and white.

 

Gogo says he's got some high level players.  Is he limiting their potential by teaching the bump?

 

Like Ray I've got no dog in this fight, I'm just really curious.

 

Ps: only the sith deal in absolutes... they're also pretty mean.  Maybe you should consider your next avatar to be Darth Sidious 🙂

 

Your video is now uploading in the Social Club.

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

So to this comment you are correct making the same movement pattern will mitigate a bunch of issues. Doesn’t mean one will magically swing with the speed or efficiency of a pro, but the swing will be easier than having to make a bunch of manipulations.

 

The feel should be created around the mechanics of the swing. Which is opposite of what many amateurs do with feel.

 

That's a key thing that motivates me. The way I would swing years ago felt really effortful and "powerful", but so much was wasted, and I would feel like crap afterwards if I went at it too hard. It's ineffecient at best, and harmful at worst.

[PedronNiall]

12 hours ago, KD1 said:

I'm probably reading into it but this video kind of felt like a response to AMG's:

 

 

And fwiw I think the hip bump they advocate is much more subtle than what AMG demonstrated.

 

(edit) Lots of pressure shifting going on here. From what I understand with S&T the pressure stays left the whole time??

 

Not going to rewind right this second and watch the original hip bump vids, but agreed that they're consistent in at least the first part of this vid advocating for a minimal but ever present hip bump at address. Seems that the aim is less to emphasize that pros get very intentional about setting one but more about helping ams who are setting up vertically or even worse with forward lean to get a negative set to their spine angle at address. Makes sense given whom these vids are aimed at. 

 

If somewhere in this vid or others they're advocating to forcibly stall the hips/pelvis in their starting positions that would be odd.

[iacas]

22 hours ago, KD1 said:

 

One of the issues with that video is that most PGA Tour players are pretty close to 90° (vertical) throughout the backswing and up to P5. They're showing a pretty good amount of axis tilt.

 

And yes, I realize this camera isn't square…

 

[johnrobison]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

One of the issues with that video is that most PGA Tour players are pretty close to 90° (vertical) throughout the backswing and up to P5.

As is Adam, himself, for the most part. And his students.

[onehopstopt]

I do think that one is a camera angle trick.

 

I'd also mention that while pros actually are at roughly 90 degrees it often doesn't look like that way. As with many things in golf, what appears to be true on camera is often not the case.

 

For example, here is Rory right as his club changes direction:

 

I suspect that if you measured him in 3D he would be stacked or very close to it, but I also think someone could easily look at this picture and think his upper body is meaningfully behind.

 

No opinion on Porzak really, just pointing out that you can end up promoting different things if you're teaching based on what things look like vs what's actually happening.

[CasualLie]

Been awhile since I posted in this thread, so thought I would add my ~15 more months of perspective since posting.  Skip to last paragraph if you want to skip the "fluff".

 

Just typical of golf isn't it?  Something seemingly as simple as a "hip bump" recommendation gets wildly interpreted.  I'm playing some of the best golf ever; finally fixed that left arm chipping issue!  guess what? not a left arm problem...but I digress.  Over the many years, I have had in person lengthy lessons with Monte, Adam, and Granato at AMG, so I have a pretty good idea about setup.  

 

Let's just keep this logical - for the right handed golfer, right hand goes below left on the grip, right hand connected to right arm connected to right shoulder.  So you should have some natural trail side a little lower than target side at address.  It creates a trail shoulder slightly lower than target; the longer the club, the more tilted it looks, but in reality, probably close to the same. 

 

Now here is where things get messy.  You could have a good shoulder tilt at address, but that does not mean you need to tilt spine away from the target.  Should you?  There's an acceptable range, but it is not much.  Too much spine tilt away from target is going to lead to problems.  You could also have a good shoulder tilt at address and the hips level or tilted the opposite way; again, bad news.  Now this isn't for everyone, but for whatever crazy reason, I "naturally" will have hips tilted opposite of shoulders slightly.  I have to guard against this.  How?  Porzak bump or even long before that, Monte simply telling me, make sure target hip is higher.  AMG told me same thing.  AMG also showed me setup where on Gears, shoulder and hip tilt correct while still having spine pretty close to 90* (none or very little tilt).

 

I like a lot of Porzak videos, but after watching/seeing/talking to Granato and Monte a bit, and others too - like Dahlquist and his AI app fascination, or James Robinson and his "geometry", and Craig Hanson - I take a lot of that Porzak hip bump with a grain of salt.  When you have more perspective, you find, it is not "wrong", but 2D screen on YouTube and Adam's eschewing of 3D tech means you have to dial it back a bit.  I know he says a ton of times in his videos a 1 inch bump, but on the screen it sure looks like more, and he has the spine tilting quite a bit.  Maybe a bunch of 20 handicappers need to see that so they can exaggerate the move in order just to get it where it needs to be?  Regardless, it is kind of silly for 3D specialists to talk about what "pros" really do and criticize Adam.  The guy is not as data driven, ok, so what?  It's YouTube.

 

I've seen 4 different top instructors and number one reason why they are great - they all see the same flaws in my swing, give me similar feedback and drills, and don't try to get me to do radical stuff.  I pretty much "own" my swing.  But I need that other set of eyes to get real time feedback.  Even with all the knowledge, recording myself is not enough.  It helps in between the tune up lessons.

 

I suspect it would be that way for a ton of other instructors, even some of the ones on YouTube (in person).  After all, the golf swing really is not all that complicated.  But for marketing and clickbait, the YT crowd of instructors sure can make it complicated.  

 

Bottom line - if you are going to watch a lot of Porzak videos, don't get caught up with what pros are doing, he's close enough for any of you spraying the ball all over the place.  Let's be honest, if you cannot break 85 on a bad day, then you probably have too many three putts, missed the green on your chips/bunkers, and lose a ball or two off the tee.  Watching only Porzak videos is not a bad idea.  It will help.  If you are breaking 80 consistently and trying to breakthrough to that next level, Porzak and YouTube in general is probably not going to help - go see an instructor in person and play more.

 

 

[CasualLie]

On 2/3/2025 at 8:23 AM, virtuoso said:

Terrible.

 

While personally I am not really into watching Todd Sones, there's really not anything wrong with the video.  It's pretty consistent with a ton of other instruction.  It just looks funny when the moves are shown so exaggerated.  

 

There's a sequence being shown there, it's not terrible.  It's most likely beneficial to most 15 handicaps.  

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, CasualLie said:

 

While personally I am not really into watching Todd Sones, there's really not anything wrong with the video.  It's pretty consistent with a ton of other instruction.  It just looks funny when the moves are shown so exaggerated.  

 

There's a sequence being shown there, it's not terrible.  It's most likely beneficial to most 15 handicaps.  

It’s not Todd sones, it’s Adam. But honestly, he’s fine. I vented in a video for the Grovelers and I’m over it.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

I do think that one is a camera angle trick.

 

A bit. But not that much, no.

 

 

5 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

I'd also mention that while pros actually are at roughly 90 degrees it often doesn't look like that way. As with many things in golf, what appears to be true on camera is often not the case.

 

It doesn't look like that. Why exaggerate it that much? His nose is over his right foot.

 

5 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

For example, here is Rory right as his club changes direction:

 

With a driver, too.

 

5 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

No opinion on Porzak really, just pointing out that you can end up promoting different things if you're teaching based on what things look like vs what's actually happening.

 

I know. This isn't that, though.

[onehopstopt]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

This isn't that, though.

 

I mean agree to disagree. I really think that- like most good coaches- he's describing useful feelings to help achieve good movement rather than bogging his students down in the details of what is actually happening.

 

For what it's worth I just asked my non golfing girlfriend to look at those photos you posted and tell me if their chest is behind the hips and she said "definitely" with no hesitation. I asked why she thought that and she basically drew a line through the lead leg to the chest, and that line is tipped pretty far backward. I think it's easy to forget what things look like to an untrained eye when you know a lot about the swing.

Edited February 5 by onehopstopt

[iacas]

8 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

I really think that- like most good coaches- he's describing useful feelings to help achieve good movement rather than bogging his students down in the details of what is actually happening.

 

Then I'd suggest he show something closer to what he'd actually want to see golfers do, not a "bent over 25°" (which might "only" be 22° from a perfect camera angle) swing.

 

Feels don't translate well. IMO videos should make very clear what you actually do, and then perhaps give you some feels (clearly labeled as such) to try to achieve those actual movement patterns.

 

And, again, this topic is serving as a (fairly gentle) critique of the video and his concept.

 

8 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

For what it's worth I just asked my non golfing girlfriend to look at those photos you posted and tell me if their chest is behind the hips and she said "definitely" with no hesitation.

 

How much weight do you think is appropriate to give to your non-golfing girlfriend's opinion? 😛

 

8 hours ago, onehopstopt said:

I asked why she thought that and she basically drew a line through the lead leg to the chest, and that line is tipped pretty far backward. I think it's easy to forget what things look like to an untrained eye when you know a lot about the swing.

 

The bold makes about as much sense as this:

 

 

This, however, does make sense (white line shows how far off Rory is from what's being demonstrated up above):

 

 

On 2/4/2025 at 9:19 AM, iacas said:

And yes, I realize this camera isn't square…

 

 

None of those look like that. And he's not THAT far from being square to the camera.

[RayPlan]

19 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Then I'd suggest he show something closer to what he'd actually want to see golfers do, not a "bent over 25°" (which might "only" be 22° from a perfect camera angle) swing.

 

Feels don't translate well. IMO videos should make very clear what you actually do, and then perhaps give you some feels (clearly labeled as such) to try to achieve those actual movement patterns.

 

And, again, this topic is serving as a (fairly gentle) critique of the video and his concept.

 

 

How much weight do you think is appropriate to give to your non-golfing girlfriend's opinion? 😛

 

 

The bold makes about as much sense as this:

 

 

This, however, does make sense (white line shows how far off Rory is from what's being demonstrated up above):

 

 

 

None of those look like that. And he's not THAT far from being square to the camera.

Ok, but you didn't make the proper perspective corrections to account for the camera angle. Here, I got you:

 

What could be more clear?

[onehopstopt]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

How much weight do you think is appropriate to give to your non-golfing girlfriend's opinion? 😛

 

Well none, really haha. My point was that what she sees is someone tilted backwards, and I suspect the same is true for a lot of golfers! My suspicion is that if you tell most people to stay pretty stacked/vertical they will end up tilted toward the target. I know that most golfers I've worked with need to feel like they are tipped away from target in order to turn properly.

 

16 hours ago, iacas said:

Feels don't translate well. IMO videos should make very clear what you actually do, and then perhaps give you some feels (clearly labeled as such) to try to achieve those actual movement patterns.

 

I guess this is just a philosophical difference in teaching method. My personal experience is a little different regarding the usefulness of showing actual motions to students, but I totally recognize that there are many ways to skin a cat.

 

By the way I'm not a huge Porzak fan. I find his explanations to be kind of confusing and hard to follow, even if I tend to broadly agree with what he is trying to achieve.

[Sean124]

On 2/4/2025 at 7:19 AM, iacas said:

 

One of the issues with that video is that most PGA Tour players are pretty close to 90° (vertical) throughout the backswing and up to P5. They're showing a pretty good amount of axis tilt.

 

And yes, I realize this camera isn't square…

 

That photo is basically what Monte identified as the reason I was stuck on my trail leg a year ago. 

[Golferguy209]

Has anyone else found with the hip bump that your iron shots start missing left?

[GoGoErky]

48 minutes ago, Golferguy209 said:

Has anyone else found with the hip bump that your iron shots start missing left?

It’s not the hip bump causing that, it’s whatever your doing somewhere between the takeaway and transition that’s causing your face to be closed

[Golferguy209]

10 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s not the hip bump causing that, it’s whatever your doing somewhere between the takeaway and transition that’s causing your face to be closed

Thanks. I wasn’t sure if when doing the hip bump I was accidentally opening the hip and pointing more left resulting in the left miss. Had a lesson the other week and my instructor had me doing it so it’s a very new feel. 

[GoGoErky]

8 hours ago, Golferguy209 said:

Thanks. I wasn’t sure if when doing the hip bump I was accidentally opening the hip and pointing more left resulting in the left miss. Had a lesson the other week and my instructor had me doing it so it’s a very new feel. 

The hip bump is a setup move. Even if you opened the hip up at setup it’s not going to stay open in the backswing. 

 

The ball starts where the face is pointing

[NikeGolferTX]

Not a fan of this. Most pros max out pressure on the trail side by P2 and already have pressure going into the lead side coming into P4.

Edited April 14 by NikeGolferTX