Can grips help with vibration damping?

[vtpachyderm]

Background - permanent injury in my left arm/elbow after a mountain bike crash. Played with graphite shafts up until this season (Recoil 110 F4s), and now playing with Project X LZ 6.0. The 120g weight really helped my swing such that this is the best I've played my irons since after the crash. Down to a 8 hcp again after 2 years of swing changes, but noticed a tendency to have golfers/tennis elbow now. Thus can't practice as much as I want to, and definitely no iron play off of mats. 

 

Winter is upon us now and my course is closing in a couple of days and if I want to practice indoors, and not give up my clubs to go back to graphite again, can I compensate with a softer grip that is maybe a bit bigger to lessen the pressure in my grip and consequently arm? Choices and availability off the shelf is limited for those speciality grips i.e anything other than standarard MCC or Tour Velvet, so before I take the plunge wanted to ask on here if this is worth pursuing or should I just focus on trying to find a new set with graphite shafts. The latter I really don't want to since I really do like my iron setup at at the moment (Cobra MIM Tours with afore mentioned LZ shafts).

 

TIA.

[ScottyGolf]

19 minutes ago, vtpachyderm said:

Background - permanent injury in my left arm/elbow after a mountain bike crash. Played with graphite shafts up until this season (Recoil 110 F4s), and now playing with Project X LZ 6.0. The 120g weight really helped my swing such that this is the best I've played my irons since after the crash. Down to a 8 hcp again after 2 years of swing changes, but noticed a tendency to have golfers/tennis elbow now. Thus can't practice as much as I want to, and definitely no iron play off of mats. 

 

Winter is upon us now and my course is closing in a couple of days and if I want to practice indoors, and not give up my clubs to go back to graphite again, can I compensate with a softer grip that is maybe a bit bigger to lessen the pressure in my grip and consequently arm? Choices and availability off the shelf is limited for those speciality grips i.e anything other than standarard MCC or Tour Velvet, so before I take the plunge wanted to ask on here if this is worth pursuing or should I just focus on trying to find a new set with graphite shafts. The latter I really don't want to since I really do like my iron setup at at the moment (Cobra MIM Tours with afore mentioned LZ shafts).

 

TIA.

I would say, yes a midsize grips will help, also a softer grip will also help.  I actually like the midsize PXG standard Z5 midsize grips made by Lamkin.  I have tried to find them from Lamkin but have not seen them anywhere.  It has greatly helped my elbows and hands (at least I think it has).  I also hit a lot of balls in the winter but you need a really good mat.

[NevadaGolfGuy]

Best I've encountered for this is the newer golf pride cpx. At least as far as dampening vibration and still feeling normal in the hand. Definitely worth a lot especially in midsized. Also maybe the pure dtx in midsize. Come to think of just about any grip with a core and outer wrap should also fit the bill i.e anything by win.

[st1800e]

Golf Pride CP2. 

[icec0ld]

Honestly, don't bother. You're gonna want new grips, cp2, sonar, all great grips that help for sure. Dampeners? Sure they work too. But at the end of the day, none of that is gonna actually really fix your golfers/tennis elbow. Why the pessimistic statement? Because I literally have been there and tried to "fix" the problem like you did off and on for the better part of 4 years. At the end of the day here's what happened to me and I'd predict would happen to you. You're gonna replace them with dampeners and grips and then one day youre gonna develop it and then wonder if you would have the issue with graphite. The answer is you won't. Just pony up on the graphite, put the grips recommended here and just be happy and feeling good at the end of the day. If you move on to new irons, just pull the shafts and swap them into the new heads.

[SEP1006]

7 minutes ago, icec0ld said:

The answer is you won't. Just pony up on the graphite, put the grips recommended here and just be happy and feeling good at the end of the day. I

 

This for sure. And check out the Jumbomax Ultralights. They are really shock absorbing and are way more durable than the Winn's. The XS's aren't that much bigger than everyone else's mid-size/jumbos.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, vtpachyderm said:

can I compensate with a softer grip that is maybe a bit bigger to lessen the pressure in my grip and consequently arm?

 

so before I take the plunge wanted to ask on here if this is worth pursuing or should I just focus on trying to find a new set with graphite shafts.

 

Grips and inserts (like Prosoft) can help a little bit - but they will not even be close to the type of relief you can get from graphite.   Will it be enough for you?   Only testing will answer that.   It has been enough from some - but unfortunately not that many.

 

Not all graphite shafts are light - heavy options do exists.

 

Second, even if you can't find an ideal graphite shaft weight, sometime increasing the swing weight can help compensate for a shaft weight that might be a bit too light.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

2 hours ago, vtpachyderm said:

Background - permanent injury in my left arm/elbow after a mountain bike crash. Played with graphite shafts up until this season (Recoil 110 F4s), and now playing with Project X LZ 6.0. The 120g weight really helped my swing such that this is the best I've played my irons since after the crash. Down to a 8 hcp again after 2 years of swing changes, but noticed a tendency to have golfers/tennis elbow now. Thus can't practice as much as I want to, and definitely no iron play off of mats. 

If you're a Golf Pride guy I'd without hesitation recommend for those Project X LZ using the Golf Pride CP2 Pro in either your choice of Standard, or Midsize. 

 

But ultimately the most pain relief/comfort will be found using a combo of graphite shafts and desired grips. I think we all know you're already aware of that.

[Sparty4202]

2 hours ago, vtpachyderm said:

Background - permanent injury in my left arm/elbow after a mountain bike crash. Played with graphite shafts up until this season (Recoil 110 F4s), and now playing with Project X LZ 6.0. The 120g weight really helped my swing such that this is the best I've played my irons since after the crash. Down to a 8 hcp again after 2 years of swing changes, but noticed a tendency to have golfers/tennis elbow now. Thus can't practice as much as I want to, and definitely no iron play off of mats. 

 

Winter is upon us now and my course is closing in a couple of days and if I want to practice indoors, and not give up my clubs to go back to graphite again, can I compensate with a softer grip that is maybe a bit bigger to lessen the pressure in my grip and consequently arm? Choices and availability off the shelf is limited for those speciality grips i.e anything other than standarard MCC or Tour Velvet, so before I take the plunge wanted to ask on here if this is worth pursuing or should I just focus on trying to find a new set with graphite shafts. The latter I really don't want to since I really do like my iron setup at at the moment (Cobra MIM Tours with afore mentioned LZ shafts).

 

TIA.

I’ve struggled with elbow issues for years, I’ve tried multiple graphite shafts but never found one I liked better than steel. After many seasons with graphite I’ve switched back to a True Temper steel shaft and I’ve installed the Sensicore inserts from Billy Bobs golf and they have worked so far.

CMX® Replacement for True Temper Sensicore Dampener

[HeadCovered]

Eek. I went through all of that. Graphite helps some, but for me, grips don't really help all that much. The bigger the grip, more bulky, therefore you may actually not have such a tight grip enough to hang on and work that shaft like you are currently, as I feel like bigger grips always sort of slip a bit and twist in my hands, as the grip isn't really wrapped around tightly enough into the fingers.  And then you have to deal with the weight differences and swing weights and flex changes...... 

 

I've had 3 shots of Cortisone each in both elbows, that helped some, but after a while it comes back. What I find works to help prevent some of it, is LIFTING WEIGHTS, doing curls, and lifting barbells or free weights, doing push ups, and hanging from the bars with straight arms and doing chin ups, focusing on the arms and wrists. I also find getting those gripping-squeeze balls help in the same way, help you strengthen your wrists and forearms. I mean I have to work at it, and I do as much as I can as I am in my mid-50s and want to prevent deterioration and loss as much as I can. 

 

What kind of head are you using? Switching to a more game-improvement head, bigger, more forgiving, with "cushioning" that doesn't take too much effort to send the ball also helps because the head itself will take the impact, like a hybrid, if you will, just easier to send the ball, like a Cleveland Launcher, Callaway Big Bertha, Cobra Aerojet etc..... I wish Callaway were still making the Fusion irons, I loved those. I think Callaway has forgotten that space in between the giant club like Big Bertha and their large cavity club that would have the fast titanium face like the Fusion had. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by HeadCovered

[karstens_ghost]

Couple of suggestions from someone who had to take 6 months off for blowing a left elbow tendon...

 

First, the CP2 is great for dampening. It comes with a cost. You have to ensure you don't hold on tighter because they're softer - and that's not as simple as it sounds. The main problem I found with CP2 is they are AWFUL when the least bit wet. Sweat or rain, and that is the least grippy grip you'll ever grip.

 

The CPX might be an improvement, but I don't have personal experience. It does appear to be better.

 

Second, if you left the recoils, I don't blame you. They're old tech. Not surprised the LZ's are playing well. What I'd say though is if the shafts do become a concern, the newer graphite shafts of today are very good. I have MMT and Dart, and either far surpass Recoil, and are just as soft. You should be able to get them in 125gr as well.

 

Amazon has "divot" impact mats. Some of them are gel, some give way… look for something like that. The injury for me was in part aggravated by elbow bend in the backswing, but also from being too deep in my divots. Instant soreness, but somehow it was a lot to do with that energy coming back up the metal shaft. I still occasionally get a "clicky" elbow after a hard shot into the ground. From the perspective of the swing, all I can say is I am using MCC grips *because* I can hold them lighter, thus less energy transfer. The Darts don't sent much energy up, but I found for me, the counterintuitive scenario of midsize tacky big right hand grips allow me to hold it more gently than a CP2, or I'd be back in CP2 despite the downsides. (Always bring a towel.)

 

Good luck, don't rush it, and YT some indoor sim videos to find out about how they've done their "impact area" - and you might get some DIY options. 

[vtpachyderm]

Thank you all for the replies.

 

A little more context - I have a metal rod in my forearm, and a prosthetic joint in my elbow. It's been 6 years since they were inserted (2017), and there is also a question of whether that needs to be checked medically. So far the docs have said it looks good in there, so I can keep doing what I'm doing and the pain I feel is typical of tennis elbow, but not extreme and goes away after about a week. Living in Norway - if I want to keep my swing in any decent shape I have to train indoors, and I have access to some really good facilities - Trackman and Foresight, so am not wanting in that aspect. Mats however are not replaced regularly, so they tend to be a bit hard.

 

So yes, as @icec0ld wrote I know that really the best option is to go with graphite shafts as I did right after getting injured. But, the shafts that seem to fit the bill are pretty darn expensive and since I'm really getting along with my current setup (MIM Tours with LZ's), I thought I would try a combo of exercise, physio, gym work, and a grip change to give it one more shot before I take the plunge - strengthen my arm and body so that I can swing a bit easier and not over exert myself without losing too much distance (holy grail I know). Playing off the grass is much better obviously.

 

Judging by the responses, maybe I'll try a couple of different types of grips in the offseason and see how it goes. Will give the CPX and CP2 wrap/pro as they are the easiest to come by where I'm at.

 

Thanks again for all the response - knew I could get some really good tips and advice on this forum :-).

 

 

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, karstens_ghost said:

Second, if you left the recoils, I don't blame you. They're old tech.

 

Sorry but this is very misleading.  The age of the tech is meaningless in this case and old shaft designs don't generally become obsolete.   The newer options are just different, not in any way better.   The different stiffness profile might mean they are a better fit for you - and that's fine.  But it doesn't mean they'll necessarily be a better fit for anyone else or that there are any inherent problem with the Recoil design.   The OP moved away from them because they were too light, not because of any problems with the "tech."

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Stuart_G

[karstens_ghost]

1 minute ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The age of the tech is meaningless in this case.   The newer options are just different, not in any way better.   The different stiffness profile might mean they are a better fit for you - and that's fine.  But it doesn't mean they'll necessarily be a better fit for anyone else or that there are any inherent problem with the Recoil design.   The OP moved away from them because they were too light, not because of any problems with the "tech."

 

 

Thanks for the pedantic response.

 

As someone that's had Recoils and their new Dart line and MMTs, and a similar injury, I can tell you that the vibration that travels the shaft is less harsh with the newer shafts, along with far better dispersion. Hell, even UST will tell you it's old tech. Yes, it is possible it could be better for some players, but it's objectively less harsh.

 

But the age is not meaningless. Carbon fibre technology has come a long way in a decade industry-wide.

 

[Stuart_G]

40 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

 

As someone that's had Recoils and their new Dart line and MMTs, and a similar injury, I can tell you that the vibration that travels the shaft is less harsh with the newer shafts, along with far better dispersion.

 

I have my own problems and experiences.   To keep playing I had to switch to graphite shafts in my irons over 20 years ago so I've seen plenty of "new tech" in that time come and go.

 

But better yet, I understand the underlying principles of how the shaft can influence the results.   And whether you realize it or not, all you're really saying is that those shafts are a better fit for you and your particular preferences for how the shaft feels during the swing.

 

38 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

But the age is not meaningless. Carbon fibre technology has come a long way in a decade industry-wide.

 

Not that far.  It's allowed them more freedom to tweak EI profiles and maybe gain stiffness in the lighter shafts.   But all that does in the heavier options is change the way the shaft will feel during the swing.    And how the ball flight results change are ALL about how that change in feel effects the players swing.   It's 100% subjective.  Nothing comes directly from the shaft and nothing about the shaft will affect all players equally.  "Dispersion" is only a property of the player - not the shaft by itself.

[vtpachyderm]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The OP moved away from them because they were too light, not because of any problems with the "tech."

 

 

Yes - and combined with the heads.  They were Recoil 110s F4 on Apex Pro 16 heads - nice and soft combo for my arm. I played myself down to a 7 on my home course with them, but my game did not translate well to other courses. Also, the shafts themselves felt really dull/dead - the LZ's feel more lively. I took lessons for some swing changes to reduce my out-in which was killing me on the longer irons at the end of 2021 and played horribly in 2022 (last year) as I was getting used to the swing change and hcp went up to 13. This year my game has been much better with a much more consistent swing with the LZ's and slightly more forgiving heads (MIM Tours) - my hcp is down to 8 and my last three rounds were played to my course hcp or better.

 

If I had an better accessibility to a shop/studio where I could try mulitple shaft/head combos I would do that in a heartbeat, but since there is so little demand for graphite shafts at the weight and stiffness I think I need - mainly ladies/senior/regular light weight options, I have to almost order based on hunches and what I feel may fit me and that to as a special order and it's going to cost a fortune. Since I have a combo that works right now - will try to make it work until I've exhausted all options. I'm not worried about long term damage to my arm - that ship has sailed a long time ago LOL.

[Doaner84]

I've been taking some tylenol and Advil before a round or practice session and it helps a lot.  

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, vtpachyderm said:

Also, the shafts themselves felt really dull/dead - the LZ's feel more lively.

 

That doesn't surprise me.  They are a stiffer shaft than the LZ's.

 

If you can find one, you might consider testing out the Steelfiber FC115's.   It's a much softer profile than either the steelfiber i-series or the Recoils.

 

 

1 hour ago, vtpachyderm said:

If I had an better accessibility to a shop/studio where I could try mulitple shaft/head combos I would do that in a heartbeat

 

I understand.   I ended up having to buy about 6 or 7 single shafts of different models and put them together in a test club (with various cheep component heads) before I finally found a good fit for me.   But from what I understand, even that is much more difficult in Europe than it is here in the US.

[vtpachyderm]

Little update.

 

I managed to find a demo set of the same heads (MIM Tours) but with Recoil 95 F4's and Lamkin Sensor + Oversize grips, and the shop has agreed to let me try them out and if I don't like them, can send them back. My current 4 iron (23 deg) is a Srixon ZX Utility with the same Recoil shaft which I hit pretty well, so it'll be interesting to see how this pans out. Since I'll get to try it out side by side to my current set, the comparison will be interesting.

 

In other words - trying both a lighter shaft and grip change all at once - what could go wrong....😂.

[tatertot]

These have been around forever ... might have been mentioned already ...

 

https://www.golfworks.com/grip-one-arthritic-golf-grips/p/g1aj/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwj5mpBhDJARIsAOVjBdrlKYPN9CswVHEPGpS21xtOvEFdBA5dypecV9aWaw4MC8-pqXNN-iMaAmxYEALw_wcB

[vtpachyderm]

Further update : compared the 'new' clubs with Recoil 95s and oversize grips to my 'old' gamer set with LZ and MCC grips. Same heads - MIM Tours and the results were pretty interesting.

 

Weight wise, the new setup felt a little bit lighter, but the balance was more even through the club. But I did notice that in my swing and had to work to 'drop' the club head on transition.

Speeds were up as expected due to the lighter shaft, and I was hitting it maybe 5m longer swing for swing on the indoor trackman.

Dispersion left to right was worse in the beginning but as I got used to the weight and shaft, it got a little better as I could start feeling what the head was doing and try to work from there.

Feel wise, feels much softer and muted with the Recoils as expected to the point where I really liked it, especially off of perfect center strikes - felt nothing in my hands or arms (you know what I mean).

Shaft wise - Recoils feel just a tad more lively than the LZ's, but I think that's more a plus on how nice the LZ's are. Feel is much better than the 110 F4's I had previously.

 

Based on  the above - you could say it's a wash about whether the performance was significantly different and nothing unexpected popped out there.

 

However - when it came down to how my arm and elbow felt after the sessions - it's a HUGE improvement. The larger grips let me grip with less pressure which eased up the tension in my forearms, and the shaft with these grips had a lot of damping, that I barely felt it in my elbow after the session and the day after. This is off of indoor mats, so it'll only be better outdoors. Just based on how much improvement and relief I get on my arm and elbow, I've decided to keep the clubs and play off of these now. It's nice to walk away from a mat session and not feel like I've destroyed my elbow and arm.

 

So - it'll be winter training in the simulator to get these clubs and swing to work in sync again - not an easy task I know, but worth pursuing. Also, I will admit - cost played a roll in this. After selling my old set - I'm $110 out of pocket, which is roughly what it would have cost me to switch out all the grips at the shop.

 

Thanks again for all the tips and discussion.

[HeadCovered]

Glad your arms felt better. 

 

But again - why not also switch heads to something that are larger, more forgiving, less digging???? Smaller heads with thinner soles ask that you hit down and through everything, as opposed to picking it or skipping it off the turf, with the technology of hollow constructions with faster faces etc to get you the ball speed without having to have to hack at it, hurting yourself??? 

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:18 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry but this is very misleading.  The age of the tech is meaningless in this case and old shaft designs don't generally become obsolete.   The newer options are just different, not in any way better.   The different stiffness profile might mean they are a better fit for you - and that's fine.  But it doesn't mean they'll necessarily be a better fit for anyone else or that there are any inherent problem with the Recoil design.   The OP moved away from them because they were too light, not because of any problems with the "tech."

 

Saying new vs old are not in any way better, is the perfect example of bias.  A shaft can be useable even look the same as today's version, but what makes it obsolete, or a Legacy is the materials used in its production are not comparable to the newer materials in today's club.

 

Example; saying my old yet still playable RL Zeidler Absolute 8* head with 1997 Composite Dynamics HP/M Lite 72g (S) shaft is just different from my TSR2 10 with Ventus Velocore TR Blue 7S is ridiculous because technology in the latter is vastly improved.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[vtpachyderm]

1 hour ago, HeadCovered said:

Glad your arms felt better. 

 

But again - why not also switch heads to something that are larger, more forgiving, less digging???? Smaller heads with thinner soles ask that you hit down and through everything, as opposed to picking it or skipping it off the turf, with the technology of hollow constructions with faster faces etc to get you the ball speed without having to have to hack at it, hurting yourself??? 

 

 

 

Totally understand this sentiment, and I did contemplate it, but i think the MIM Tours are quite forgiving and doesn’t have too thin of a sole. They hide their size pretty well. They were definitely much larger and more forgiving than the Apex Pro 16s I had previous to this set. The heads seem to work very well for me and the gapping fits pretty well in my bag between my 4 utility and wedge setup. For me, they are so consistent in front to back distance that I would have a hard time moving to more GI irons.

 

I honestly think these were a really underrated club when they came out.

 

[HeadCovered]

2 hours ago, vtpachyderm said:

Totally understand this sentiment, and I did contemplate it, but i think the MIM Tours are quite forgiving and doesn’t have too thin of a sole. They hide their size pretty well. They were definitely much larger and more forgiving than the Apex Pro 16s I had previous to this set. The heads seem to work very well for me and the gapping fits pretty well in my bag between my 4 utility and wedge setup. For me, they are so consistent in front to back distance that I would have a hard time moving to more GI irons.

 

I honestly think these were a really underrated club when they came out.

 

Yup, totally get how it can be.

 

Come give us a report on how the new set up is in a couple weeks after you’ve hit a few 

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Saying new vs old are not in any way better, is the perfect example of bias.  A shaft can be useable even look the same as today's version, but what makes it obsolete, or a Legacy is the materials used in its production are not comparable to the newer materials in today's club.

 

Bias is prejudice in favor or against something.    So someone that says A is better then B is the one you have to worry about being biased,  not the person who says A is as good as B.

 

So my position has nothing to do with bias,  it's basic engineering.   Steel is really old as far as materials go, it's been around a long time and there are lots of newer high tech material's that have been developed.   Does that make steel obsolete when it comes to picking a material for a head design?  Of course not. 

 

As long as the intended design (in this case desired EI profile and weight and durability) is within the capabilities of the material (no matter what the age),  the end produce will not be obsolete when it comes to performance.    More "advanced" materials don't really add anything to that performance.    Now there might be some other ramifications to the manufacturing process and cost - but not performance or capabilities.

 

The only time the material might make a difference is when trying to expand the limits of the old materials.   In the case of shafts that's really only pushing the limits of weight and stiffness .   So for example high stiffness in ultra-light designs like maybe a low launching, tip stiff driver shaft less than 50 gm.  Or the ultra light iron shafts that aren't wet noodles.

 

The rest is just the question of whether one IE profile is "better" than another - and that is 100% subjective preference - it has nothing to do with the objective quality of a shaft.

 

[karstens_ghost]

21 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Now there might be some other ramifications to the manufacturing process and cost - but not performance or capabilities.

 

 

21 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

it has nothing to do with the objective quality of a shaft.

 

If a shaft is to be measured by its dispersion first, over a population, one would say its performance or capabilities have improved if the population gets better dispersion.

 

If that's the "objective" quality of the shaft, it has a lot to do with it.

 

There are a hundred qualities of a shaft that are mostly not assumed, for example how often it shatters, or how it performs after twenty years of exposure under extreme heat, or whatever… but in general there are two properties we generally assume we're talking about, and that's dispersion and in the case here, vibration intensity/reverse energy transfer.

 

If over the general golfing population it's better, it's objectively better. It's disingenuous to argue that this isn't true because there are individual scenarios where the reverse is true, or that there's no improvement. Everyone accepts that the measurement is over a wide sampling. Soapboxing that if it's not all, it's not true, is flawed logic.

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

[Stuart_G]

47 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

If a shaft is to be measured by its dispersion first, over a population, one would say its performance or capabilities have improved if the population gets better dispersion.

 

First of all, that's a pretty big IF.  Not something that's going to happen anytime soon with enough accuracy to be meaningful.  

 

However, I'm not one who would agree with the logic.  Way too many other variables that could be influencing any trends over the extremely wide range of sampling that would be needed to generate statistically meaningful results.   Which brings us to the basic logical rule that "correlation does not imply causation."

 

 

47 minutes ago, karstens_ghost said:

but in general there are two properties we generally assume we're talking about, and that's dispersion and in the case here, vibration intensity/reverse energy transfer.

 

Dispersion is not a measurable property of the shaft - it's a characteristic of the individual's swing who's using the shaft.   The dominant influence from the shaft is a purely subjective influence on the swing.

 

Well there might be an objective influence that could be measured IF you only look at it only from the standpoint of robot testing.  But it's already been well established that most of the robots don't really accurately represent human mechanics very well.  So even in that context it wouldn't really be all that useful of a property.  

 

Stiffness (in all it's various dimensions) and weight are the only real objective properties that are important.

 

As far as energy transfer from the person to the head goes, there really isn't that much variation to be important.  And when it comes to energy transfer from the head to the hands (due to impact) - the basic differences between graphite and steel is the only thing that matters to most.   The subjective influence on the swing - and thus the ability to get good center face impact is much more dominant when it comes to the effect of transmitting vibration to the hands.

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Stuart_G

[karstens_ghost]

40 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

First of all, that's a pretty big IF.  Not something that's going to happen anytime soon with enough accuracy to be meaningful.  

 

However, I'm not one who would agree with the logic.  Way too many other variables that could be influencing any trends over the extremely wide range of sampling that would be needed to generate statistically meaningful results.   Which brings us to the basic logical rule that "correlation does not imply causation."

 

 

 

Dispersion is not a measurable property of the shaft - it's a characteristic of the individual's swing who's using the shaft.   The dominant influence from the shaft is a purely subjective influence on the swing.

 

Well there might be an objective influence that could be measured IF you only look at it only from the standpoint of robot testing.  But it's already been well established that most of the robots don't really accurately represent human mechanics very well.  So even in that context it wouldn't really be all that useful of a property.  

 

Stiffness (in all it's various dimensions) and weight are the only real objective properties that are important.

 

As far as energy transfer from the person to the head goes, there really isn't that much variation to be important.  And when it comes to energy transfer from the head to the hands (due to impact) - the basic differences between graphite and steel is the only thing that matters to most.   The subjective influence on the swing - and thus the ability to get good center face impact is much more dominant when it comes to the effect of transmitting vibration to the hands.

 

 

 

 

I… just… I give up. You don't know how to do statistical distribution. Because if you're correct, all the shaft R&D can pack up, go home, and faff about because it's impossible to get better.

 

I'll leave you with this...

 

100 people have two clubs, and hit 100 balls each. The only difference is the shaft.

 

Of the 10,000 shots each shaft is responsible for, there's a distribution. Take enough shots, and human variance is averaged out. From there, you can measure average distance from target.

 

One number will be larger than the other. Smaller number is objectively better than the larger.

 

If you don't agree, just block me, please.

 

 

 

[knickerbocker]

Back on topic. I had significant arthritis in my left hand and could not even hold a club. 

 

I went to Steelfiber and CP2 Jumbo and now no hand pain.  But my game suffered to start until I got used to large grips and new shafts.  Eventually, I had some great rounds, but every round was pain free!

 

Be patient with any changes. Physical pain or not playing is worse than making bogies.