Two shafts on different ends of the spectrum, how to meet in the middle?

[RickAstley]

I just bought a new Stealth 2+ (from here, thank you classifieds!!)

 

The stock shaft on there is a 60g 6.0 Hzrdus black that’s 45.5”. I’ve taken it out a few times and choked up on it, but still hitting a lot of big hooks with it. 
 

My last driver was a titleist 913 D3 with a matrix Ozik black tie 7m3 at 44”. Usually hit a nice cut, but had a tendency to hit a big slice. 

I would love to split the difference here, without buying a new shaft (my wife would not approve of that, and need to keep the Mrs happy so I can keep hitting the links). Is there any way to soften the black tie some? Any way to stiffen up the hzrdus? I do want to cut down the length on that so tip trimming is definitely an option, but read that it could change the profile of the shaft quite a bit. Is this realistic or am I just between a rock and a hard place?

Edited October 12, 2023 by RickAstley

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, RickAstley said:

I just bought a new Stealth 2+ (from here, thank you classifieds!!)

 

The stock shaft on there is a 60g 6.0 Hzrdus black that’s 45.5”. I’ve taken it out a few times and choked up on it, but still hitting a lot of big hooks with it. 
 

My last driver was a titleist 913 D3 with a matrix Ozik black tie 7m3 at 44”. Usually hit a nice cut, but had a tendency to hit a big slice. 

I would love to split the difference here, without buying a new shaft (my wife would not approve of that, and need to keep the Mrs happy so I can keep hitting the links). Is there any way to soften the black tie some? Any way to stiffen up the hzrdus? I do want to cut down the length on that so tip trimming is definitely an option, but read that it could change the profile of the shaft quite a bit. Is this realistic or am I just between a rock and a hard place?

Its 2 different heads too, and since a hook comes from a face angle closed vs club path, its really a face angle issue that causes it, so before you look for a new shaft, pay attention to how face angle is in address position, so with your lowest hand (maybe a too strong grip). Talking about the grip, is the GRIP itself the same on both clubs?

PS BOTH shafts is "low launch" so unless FEEL causes you to change path or close up more aggressive, dont expect a shaft to be able to fix it, since we end up the same place, its all about how much you close the face angle during the swing.

So...look closely on face angle, does it seems closed in address position?
Try to open in, THEN place you hands on the club with face angle slightly open, and DONT use a "too strong" lower hand.

Tell us how what you found, be fore you start to tip trim the shaft. If it FEELS good, the only reason to tip trim is added head wgt when going shorter. To "keep it" as it is, tip trim 1/8" for each 2.5 grams you add of head wgt. (10 grams = 0.5")

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, RickAstley said:

I just bought a new Stealth 2+ (from here, thank you classifieds!!)

 

The stock shaft on there is a 60g 6.0 Hzrdus black that’s 45.5”. I’ve taken it out a few times and choked up on it, but still hitting a lot of big hooks with it. 
 

My last driver was a titleist 913 D3 with a matrix Ozik black tie 7m3 at 44”. Usually hit a nice cut, but had a tendency to hit a big slice. 

I would love to split the difference here, without buying a new shaft (my wife would not approve of that, and need to keep the Mrs happy so I can keep hitting the links). Is there any way to soften the black tie some? Any way to stiffen up the hzrdus? I do want to cut down the length on that so tip trimming is definitely an option, but read that it could change the profile of the shaft quite a bit. Is this realistic or am I just between a rock and a hard place?

That 1.5" difference is far more likely to be the culprit, thats a huge difference in length for a driver. The Black Tie is a particularly stiff mid shaft so I wouldn't worry about stiffening up the HZRDUS too much. If it were me with these options I would tip the HZRDUS and inch and reinstall at 44.5" and see how you go. You'll likely want to add some weight to the head, but if you're trying to replicate another club it would be very valuable to know it's headweight, or at least what the swingweight of that old build was. 

[WristySwing]

Not to state the obvious...but have you lowered the loft on the Stealth and also used the sliding weight into the toe position?  If you still hook that, it ain't the shaft considering the Stealth is the flattest driver on the market right now by at least 2* ...

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

You have to qualify "Big Hook." Start left go further left? Start straight break left? Start Right, Break Left?

 

Since you've increased the length of the club, if I were a betting man, I'd say "Start Left - Go Further Left" but gambling is illegal in Bushwood and I'm afraid of losing money. 😄

As @Valtiel has noted, 1.5" is a lot and I would consider that a change like that is quite likely to be disrupting your timing and rhythm to some degree. And as @Howard_Jones has eluded to, your grip may have a part in this and I wonder if it has something to do with your previous acclimation to the Black Tie that you're used to using.

Put those two together with shaft changes and you have variations of a hook in the making because of multiple contributing factors. It's not an exact science, though. Having evidence of contact conditions would be nice, too. Slow motion video would rock, too.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[RickAstley]

5 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Its 2 different heads too, and since a hook comes from a face angle closed vs club path, its really a face angle issue that causes it, so before you look for a new shaft, pay attention to how face angle is in address position, so with your lowest hand (maybe a too strong grip). Talking about the grip, is the GRIP itself the same on both clubs?

PS BOTH shafts is "low launch" so unless FEEL causes you to change path or close up more aggressive, dont expect a shaft to be able to fix it, since we end up the same place, its all about how much you close the face angle during the swing.

So...look closely on face angle, does it seems closed in address position?
Try to open in, THEN place you hands on the club with face angle slightly open, and DONT use a "too strong" lower hand.

Tell us how what you found, be fore you start to tip trim the shaft. If it FEELS good, the only reason to tip trim is added head wgt when going shorter. To "keep it" as it is, tip trim 1/8" for each 2.5 grams you add of head wgt. (10 grams = 0.5")

 

At address the face angle is square, and my grip isn't overly strong it's more neutral than anything. The grips are not the same, but they are both GolfPride. The stealth is just the stock TM branded golfpride grip, and the black tie is a multi-compound, both standard size. One of the bigger differences with grip is that on the HZRDUS since it's so long, I am choking up 1.5" so my hands are down near the bottom/smaller portion of the grip - which could attribute to getting more handsy. Overall the HZRDUS feels ok just a lot lighter and a touch more whippy, I just feel like I have to swing it way less aggressively to keep it somewhere in bounds where I could go afterr the black tie. The black tie at times can feel a bit boardy and harsh.

 

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

That 1.5" difference is far more likely to be the culprit, thats a huge difference in length for a driver. The Black Tie is a particularly stiff mid shaft so I wouldn't worry about stiffening up the HZRDUS too much. If it were me with these options I would tip the HZRDUS and inch and reinstall at 44.5" and see how you go. You'll likely want to add some weight to the head, but if you're trying to replicate another club it would be very valuable to know it's headweight, or at least what the swingweight of that old build was. 

 

One of my favorite clubs is my Nike VR Pro 5W. It's got a Diamana Ahina Stiff Shaft (pulled from a driver and tipped 1.5"). The length is 42.5" - I don't carry a 3wd, I hit this on average 225-235. It's got a total weight of ~350 and swing weight of D4

 

1 hour ago, WristySwing said:

Not to state the obvious...but have you lowered the loft on the Stealth and also used the sliding weight into the toe position?  If you still hook that, it ain't the shaft considering the Stealth is the flattest driver on the market right now by at least 2* ...

 

I have not modified any of the weight settings. I really don't like the length of this so want to figure out how get the length down on this, or adding weight to soften the other one before I worry about weight position.

 

33 minutes ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

You have to qualify "Big Hook." Start left go further left? Start straight break left? Start Right, Break Left?

 

Since you've increased the length of the club, if I were a betting man, I'd say "Start Left - Go Further Left" but gambling is illegal in Bushwood and I'm afraid of losing money. 😄

As @Valtiel has noted, 1.5" is a lot and I would consider that a change like that is quite likely to be disrupting your timing and rhythm to some degree. And as @Howard_Jones has eluded to, your grip may have a part in this and I wonder if it has something to do with your previous acclimation to the Black Tie that you're used to using.

Put those two together with shaft changes and you have variations of a hook in the making because of multiple contributing factors. It's not an exact science, though. Having evidence of contact conditions would be nice, too. Slow motion video would rock, too.

 

You nailed it haha!! Left going left. I was choking up considerably on it and not holding it at the butt end so it would play closer to 44". As I mentioned up there it could be gripping so low on the shaft that makes me close it way faster, but this shaft is also considerably lighter and I feel like I have to dial it back some. I don't know that I'll be able to make it to the range today, but I'll try my best! If not I may be able to hit a few into the net in my garage, although I haven't tempted fate by hitting driver in there yet...

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

Acclimation to such changes can be difficult and frustrating. 😄

That reminds me, I need to stop playing golf and finish my friggen garage so I could potentially set up a temporary golf range/simulator in there when it is done. 😄 😄 😄

[ShortGolfer]

Athletic tape on the grip may help you to consistently choke down on the grip.

Lead tape is a cheap way of adjusting a club to find out what works, particularly if you shorten the club.  You lose roughly 6 SW points per inch, so you may need a lot of tape to with a much shorter club.

 

A common mistake is to shorten a club but not experiment with lead tape to get the SW back up!

[RickAstley]

2 hours ago, Mikey_HACKilroy said:

Acclimation to such changes can be difficult and frustrating. 😄

That reminds me, I need to stop playing golf and finish my friggen garage so I could potentially set up a temporary golf range/simulator in there when it is done. 😄 😄 😄

 

Would it be better to acclimate to it, or to adjust it to fit my current swing profile? Definitely wanting to shorten it and with a new grip probably won't be gripping so low on the handle and not turning over the club as fast. I really just don't know if I should tip it or cut it off the butt. I like the feel of it but want to be able to "go after it" and not feel like I have to guide one out there.

[RickAstley]

2 hours ago, ShortGolfer said:

Athletic tape on the grip may help you to consistently choke down on the grip.

Lead tape is a cheap way of adjusting a club to find out what works, particularly if you shorten the club.  You lose roughly 6 SW points per inch, so you may need a lot of tape to with a much shorter club.

 

A common mistake is to shorten a club but not experiment with lead tape to get the SW back up!

 

The athletic tape idea is something I hadn't considered. I certainly have a lot of lead tape too (it's plastered all over all of my clubs!) I have a golf scramble tournament in two weeks and traveling next week so don't have a lot of time to tinker

[Howard_Jones]

5 hours ago, RickAstley said:

 

At address the face angle is square, and my grip isn't overly strong it's more neutral than anything. The grips are not the same, but they are both GolfPride. The stealth is just the stock TM branded golfpride grip, and the black tie is a multi-compound, both standard size. One of the bigger differences with grip is that on the HZRDUS since it's so long, I am choking up 1.5" so my hands are down near the bottom/smaller portion of the grip - which could attribute to getting more handsy. Overall the HZRDUS feels ok just a lot lighter and a touch more whippy, I just feel like I have to swing it way less aggressively to keep it somewhere in bounds where I could go afterr the black tie. The black tie at times can feel a bit boardy and harsh.

 

 

One of my favorite clubs is my Nike VR Pro 5W. It's got a Diamana Ahina Stiff Shaft (pulled from a driver and tipped 1.5"). The length is 42.5" - I don't carry a 3wd, I hit this on average 225-235. It's got a total weight of ~350 and swing weight of D4

 

 

I have not modified any of the weight settings. I really don't like the length of this so want to figure out how get the length down on this, or adding weight to soften the other one before I worry about weight position.

 

 

You nailed it haha!! Left going left. I was choking up considerably on it and not holding it at the butt end so it would play closer to 44". As I mentioned up there it could be gripping so low on the shaft that makes me close it way faster, but this shaft is also considerably lighter and I feel like I have to dial it back some. I don't know that I'll be able to make it to the range today, but I'll try my best! If not I may be able to hit a few into the net in my garage, although I haven't tempted fate by hitting driver in there yet...

General guide line for GRIPS
The smaller the diameter is for the lowest hand, MORE face closure

If in doubt, and you can offer 2 grips, rip off the one you have now, take another and cut or drill a hole in the butt cap.
Install that grip down at the position /length that you plan to use after cut down.

Example, if you want to cut of 1.5 inch,. let 1.5 inch stick out on top of the grip.
This way you can try off the club at the "new" play length without getting fooled by grip size who most likely is the reason for your hooks.

Its also ideal for testing added head wgt, to see if you want to adjust by tip trim or not.
 

 

[RickAstley]

6 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

General guide line for GRIPS
The smaller the diameter is for the lowest hand, MORE face closure

If in doubt, and you can offer 2 grips, rip off the one you have now, take another and cut or drill a hole in the butt cap.
Install that grip down at the position /length that you plan to use after cut down.

Example, if you want to cut of 1.5 inch,. let 1.5 inch stick out on top of the grip.
This way you can try off the club at the "new" play length without getting fooled by grip size who most likely is the reason for your hooks.

Its also ideal for testing added head wgt, to see if you want to adjust by tip trim or not.
 

 

thanks for the advice! im going to get in my garage tonight and tinker based on your article hitting balls into the net. Probably won’t cut a grip up just because I don’t have a monitor and won’t be able to see ball flight anyway. I suspect you’re right about that cause and effect though. Will take some pictures and measurements before and after of this experiment! Really curious to see how it comes out

[RickAstley]

Alright here’s where I’m at with attempts so far. First picture is my driver I’ve had for years, the 44” x stiff. Just out on the toe side. (I suspect all of these are low on the face since I’m hitting off a mat in my garage and scared to death of breaking something accidentally, last pic is the ball tee setup I’m working with). 
 

second picture is unadjusted (length or weight) new stealth 45.5” stiff. Felt very out of control hitting this at length and did not like it at all. 
 

third picture is tape 1.5” down the grip to 44” and it’s back out toe side and felt more controllable. Didn’t really like the weight of it, so added 3 quarters which I believe is about 17 grams. That felt a lot better in my hands. 
 

I did a lot of swings side by side and the new shaft is lighter so feels a lot more weighty in the head vs in totality. Also the new driver felt a slight flex in the shaft at the top of my backswing vs the x stiff didn’t really feel that until I started the downswing. (Note I wasn’t swinging max out or really above 75% because garage…)

 

All this to say, I think I want to try cutting down the new shaft to 44” and adding head weight. My only real question now is do I take some off the tip and if so, how much?

[RickAstley]

It looks like based on Howard’s article too trimming is all about launch angle. I tend to hit the ball very high with all my clubs which is why I always look for low/low shafts. Would that mean I should tip trim 3/4-1” and then take the remainder off the butt?

[Avidswampthing66]

16 minutes ago, RickAstley said:

It looks like based on Howard’s article too trimming is all about launch angle. I tend to hit the ball very high with all my clubs which is why I always look for low/low shafts. Would that mean I should tip trim 3/4-1” and then take the remainder off the butt?

I would not tip trim more than an 1" 

That would def firm the shaft up a little and knock off some spin.  You could do 3/4 tip and the rest butt to get desired length 

[RickAstley]

10 hours ago, Avidswampthing66 said:

I would not tip trim more than an 1" 

That would def firm the shaft up a little and knock off some spin.  You could do 3/4 tip and the rest butt to get desired length 

 

Is there any particular reason you wouldn't go more than 1"? Just curious more than anything as the science of all this fascinates me. I put a driver shaft in my 5w and the guy who installed it tipped 1.5"