Club length and swing faults (example flippping)

[Pnwpingi210]

Question for you gurus.  Have you seen adjusting club length help correct swing faults? 
 

example i’m in my 40’s, 6’2”, long legs and average to short arms.  Been playing anywhere from a 37 - 37.5 inch 7 iron the last 15 years.   All things considered I'm a decent ball striker, but have struggled with low point control and high dynamic loft (created by a flip at the bottom). I recently shafted up a set of mizuno b weight irons at a 38 inch  7 iron.  After about two range sessions to adjust the flip is all but gone, dynamic loft now more ideal, and not hitting behind the ball as much.  My body feels better after playing as well.  It also has seem to help reduce my directional miss, which was a dead pull although I’ve only been on course a couple of times with this setup.

anyone else experience this?  I know a lot of fitters dislike putting people into clubs longer to an .5 over, but it’s working for me…..for now🤣
 

 

[ProV1Killa]

This will be interesting.  I hit a club that was 1" over in a sim yesterday.  I am having the same issue as you, but without the flip.  The biggest difference was my 7 iron that is 1/4" over standard consistently had an AoA between 9 and 11 and the 1" 7 iron was between 3 and 6 AoA.  Getting older (50s) and my timing just isn't what it was 10 years ago.  Coming in at that angle I was either perfect, chunky, or thin with little margin of error.  Bad part is that if perfect the ball was was coming out high and spinny, like pushing 130 ft apex high.  The decrease in AoA brought solid contact down 20 ft and seemed to increase the margin of error when I wasn't perfect with timing shrinking my front to back dispersion.

[Valtiel]

10 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Question for you gurus.  Have you seen adjusting club length help correct swing faults? 
 

...example i’m in my 40’s, 6’2”, long legs and average to short arms.  

...I know a lot of fitters dislike putting people into clubs longer to an .5 over, but it’s working for me…..for now🤣
 

 

Any fitter that dislikes going outside +/- 0.5" on some sort of principle isn't a good fitter. Being tall with shorter arms is an easy candidate to start with overlength builds for comfort purposes. Now fitting to fix a swing flaw is something that would be generally frowned upon, but that doesn't mean it can't have an impact, just that it shouldn't be considered a solution until others things have been tried. Where your flip is/was coming from factors in as well, but all that aside having better dynamic loft numbers and being more physically comfortable is only a good thing. My 4i starts at +1/2" and via 3/8" increments I arrive at something around +1.25" in my wedges, and IMO on average a lot more people would more comfortable with this type of setup as being bent over is tough on a lot of backs, especially if swing flaws are involved. So yeah, experiment with length for sure, and don't be afraid to go longer or stagger your gaps to create progressive lengths. 

[Stuart_G]

14 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Question for you gurus.  Have you seen adjusting club length help correct swing faults? 
 

 

"Correct"?   No.    Reduce negative consequences of a swing fault - Yes.   But only with respect to shortening the longer clubs - hybrids, woods, driver - maybe long irons.   Never by going longer.

 

14 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

but have struggled with low point control and high dynamic loft (created by a flip at the bottom).

 

The flip (if it really is a flip) is very unlikely the root cause - it's frequently a secondary (necessary) compensation for something else that's happening sooner in the swing.    Issues with low point control tend to be more lower body control or sequencing issues - but that's just over generalization.

 

 

14 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I recently shafted up a set of mizuno b weight irons at a 38 inch  7 iron.  After about two range sessions to adjust the flip is all but gone, dynamic loft now more ideal, and not hitting behind the ball as much.  My body feels better after playing as well.  It also has seem to help reduce my directional miss, which was a dead pull although I’ve only been on course a couple of times with this setup.

 

If the original problem was equal through the set - just as bad in the PW as the 7i.  And if the improvement is also equal throughout the set - just as much improvement with the say the PW as it is with the 7i - then the original problem and the reason for the improvement is unlikely the change in playing length - at least not directly.  If you want to figure out what, I'd suggest a more complete and detailed blueprinting of the new irons and compare them to the old.  IF you're not, that's fine too.  It's the end results that matter the most.

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Primo1868]

I think you will find a lot of anecdotal evidence (along with my own experience) in this thread:

 

I think there is significant value in finding the shortest comfortable length and also finding the longest consistent length in an iron set and stepping progressively to match those lengths like @Valtiel has described above. I would have never been able to understand this for myself if it wasn't for a set I purchased on the BST that was 1.75" long. Based on my own tinkering experience; I will never go back to a "standard" pw length ever again. 

[Rbsiedsc]

7 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Any fitter that dislikes going outside +/- 0.5" on some sort of principle isn't a good fitter. Being tall with shorter arms is an easy candidate to start with overlength builds for comfort purposes. Now fitting to fix a swing flaw is something that would be generally frowned upon, but that doesn't mean it can't have an impact, just that it shouldn't be considered a solution until others things have been tried. Where your flip is/was coming from factors in as well, but all that aside having better dynamic loft numbers and being more physically comfortable is only a good thing. My 4i starts at +1/2" and via 3/8" increments I arrive at something around +1.25" in my wedges, and IMO on average a lot more people would more comfortable with this type of setup as being bent over is tough on a lot of backs, especially if swing flaws are involved. So yeah, experiment with length for sure, and don't be afraid to go longer or stagger your gaps to create progressive lengths. 

Agreed here. I have a setup where my 7i is 3/4” over and then 3/8” between the rest of my clubs. Never going back to a “std” kind of setup again. 

[Pnwpingi210]

Thanks for all the replies on this.

 

the shorter clubs always had more of the flip and more prone to the left. Gw - 8 were the most trouble.  5-6 iron were generally great clubs for me, and was surprisingly consistent with 3-4 iron.
 

 The b weight heads allow me to play an x100 at d4 with standard weight grips.  For me playing a club 1 inch over but at static weight 7-10 grams less (b heads)  is easier to swing than a  .5 inch over club weight 7-10 grams more with standard heads.
 

 In my mind and what I feel in my swing now is i am able to get not hands forward at impact without  strain on my lower back and feeling like the clubs is too short.   
 

now i just need to figure out my 56 degree wedge and how to get that build right.

[Guest RobS]

20 hours ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Thanks for all the replies on this.

 

the shorter clubs always had more of the flip and more prone to the left. Gw - 8 were the most trouble.  5-6 iron were generally great clubs for me, and was surprisingly consistent with 3-4 iron.
 

 The b weight heads allow me to play an x100 at d4 with standard weight grips.  For me playing a club 1 inch over but at static weight 7-10 grams less (b heads)  is easier to swing than a  .5 inch over club weight 7-10 grams more with standard heads.
 

 In my mind and what I feel in my swing now is i am able to get not hands forward at impact without  strain on my lower back and feeling like the clubs is too short.   
 

now i just need to figure out my 56 degree wedge and how to get that build right.

Players who flip to tend have issues with maintaining posture and turning through the ball.  In other words, they stop turning through the downswing ('stall') and have no choice but to throw the club at the ball and lose their angles into impact.  Given that your problem was magnified in the shorter clubs it's plausible that additional length or combination of length and lie is putting you in a more comfortable posture that allows your body to move more effectively.  Being in your 40's, you've probably lost some flexibility in your hips, hamstrings and lower back as well as some strength in your legs, glutes and lower back.  I've been there.  It happens when you spend a couple decades maybe sitting in the car on the way to work to sit at a desk for hours.  Nothing wrong adjusting your equipment to help but I'd also work in some flexibility and mobility work to loosen your hips up in particular. Your low back and golf swing will thank you!

[Pnwpingi210]

4 hours ago, RobS said:

Players who flip to tend have issues with maintaining posture and turning through the ball.  In other words, they stop turning through the downswing ('stall') and have no choice but to throw the club at the ball and lose their angles into impact.  Given that your problem was magnified in the shorter clubs it's plausible that additional length or combination of length and lie is putting you in a more comfortable posture that allows your body to move more effectively.  Being in your 40's, you've probably lost some flexibility in your hips, hamstrings and lower back as well as some strength in your legs, glutes and lower back.  I've been there.  It happens when you spend a couple decades maybe sitting in the car on the way to work to sit at a desk for hours.  Nothing wrong adjusting your equipment to help but I'd also work in some flexibility and mobility work to loosen your hips up in particular. Your low back and golf swing will thank you!

This is pretty accurate.  The last few years in particular I’ve felt like there is no way I can lean the shaft forward and hit the ball without  topping  the ball or missing it completely.  So to avoid the topped shot I flip the wrists and end up with a neutral shaft ant impact with the shorter irons and most wedges.  Didn’t lose any clubhead speed, but spin loft and dynamic loft were never great.  They improved significantly with the long setup.  And I don’t wake up stiff the next day.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Pnwpingi210

[ChaosTheory]

You could be a candidate for Cobra one length irons.  At least for the the lower half of your set.

[Mikey_HACKilroy]

It certainly is possible that the extra length has helped to encourage better alignment and more natural position. It is also possible that it has helped to control timing.

I find that pretty much all of my swing flaws as they happen can be traced back to the beginning to a root cause. Seldom is the root cause ever beyond takeaway. Everything up until that point is crystalized once the club starts moving.

Trying to actively control fractional motion during a golf swing leads to poor and erratic contact. Still, I would want to see my process on video paying special attention to club behavior to determine whether I truly have resolved my problem. Though, I'm a bit obsessive with levels of detail. I'm the guy that hits a shot, gets away with the mishit, and still shakes his head whilst everybody watching thinks "good shot."

No..... LUCKY shot. 😄 😄 😄

Edited October 20, 2023 by Mikey_HACKilroy

[rbpwrx]

If it works, it works. Too many variables for anyone here to comment intelligently. Don't overthink it. Remember, a 38" 7i is just a 'normal' 5i with a heavier, loftier head. Call it your 5i if you want! There is no reliable standard. Used to be 36.75" for a 7i anyway. At 36° loft. That's a 9i now. Drivers range from 42" to 48". Bottom line is your scorecard.

[dekez]

Flipping is usually caused by an "over the top" swing.  Are your elbows getting farther apart as you get towards the top of your backswing?  That usually triggers both.