Rank top 5 hardest PGA Tour courses accessible to public

[Pnwpingi210]

What are the top 5 most difficult USA pga tour courses that are accessible to the general public?

 

Accessible to general public criteria:  a round can be booked by a member of the general public, including out of state.  

[OnTheBag]

Bethpage Black without a doubt is the hardest, IMHO.  Next would be Erin Hills or Chambers Bay.  I've caddied events at all 3 and played a few holes during scouting but haven't played a full round at all the public courses to host a US Open.  

 

Harbour Town would be hard for a bomber.  It is a shot maker's course in the best possible way.  

 

Course difficulty varies from player to player.  What sets up well to my eye, may bore you to death.

[vandyfan]

48 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

USA pga tour courses

 

Bethpage/Erin Hills etc don't host regular tour events but, rather, majors. I think the OP is asking what are the hardest standard tour stops. I guess the nuanced question is "hard for whom?" The tour players themselves or the average golfer? Obviously they are all going to be challenging to a weekend hacker but there are courses that are relatively more difficult for a regular golfer vs a tour player. Anyway, enough with that, I will guess:

 

Innisbrook (I don't think I would play this course for free, looks like a nightmare)
Bay Hill  (actually private)
TPC Sawgrass
PGA National (also would hard pass on playing this one)
Harbour Town (I have played it once and enjoyed it but probably don't need to ever play again)
Torrey Pines I guess?

 

[Pnwpingi210]

3 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

Bethpage/Erin Hills etc don't host regular tour events but, rather, majors. I think the OP is asking what are the hardest standard tour stops. I guess the nuanced question is "hard for whom?" The tour players themselves or the average golfer? Obviously they are all going to be challenging to a weekend hacker but there are courses that are relatively more difficult for a regular golfer vs a tour player. Anyway, enough with that, I will guess:

 

Innisbrook (I don't think I would play this course for free, looks like a nightmare)
Bay Hill  (actually private)
TPC Sawgrass
PGA National (also would hard pass on playing this one)
Harbour Town (I have played it once and enjoyed it but probably don't need to ever play again)
Torrey Pines I guess?

 

 

32 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

Bethpage Black without a doubt is the hardest, IMHO.  Next would be Erin Hills or Chambers Bay.  I've caddied events at all 3 and played a few holes during scouting but haven't played a full round at all the public courses to host a US Open.  

 

Harbour Town would be hard for a bomber.  It is a shot maker's course in the best possible way.  

 

Course difficulty varies from player to player.  What sets up well to my eye, may bore you to death.

 
 

Great lists so far

 

and good clarifications- major venues included, difficulty for the non-tour player

[third-times-a-charm]

12 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

 

Bethpage/Erin Hills etc don't host regular tour events but, rather, majors. I think the OP is asking what are the hardest standard tour stops. I guess the nuanced question is "hard for whom?" The tour players themselves or the average golfer? Obviously they are all going to be challenging to a weekend hacker but there are courses that are relatively more difficult for a regular golfer vs a tour player. Anyway, enough with that, I will guess:

 

Innisbrook (I don't think I would play this course for free, looks like a nightmare)
Bay Hill  (actually private)
TPC Sawgrass
PGA National (also would hard pass on playing this one)
Harbour Town (I have played it once and enjoyed it but probably don't need to ever play again)
Torrey Pines I guess?

 

 

Bay Hill is private but you can play without a member + a caddy if you stay at the lodge for 1+ nights. "Member for a day" as Arnie called it. Same as Pebble and etc that have public tee time blocks.

 

Actually not a bad move if you're a big golf guy and going to Disney with the family tbh.

Edited November 27, 2023 by third-times-a-charm

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, OnTheBag said:

Bethpage Black without a doubt is the hardest, IMHO.  Next would be Erin Hills or Chambers Bay.  I've caddied events at all 3 and played a few holes during scouting but haven't played a full round at all the public courses to host a US Open.  

 

Agreed on Bethpage. Erin Hills can be pretty tough if you aren't accurate off the tee. I think Chambers is actually pretty playable.

 

Assuming you're not tipping it out and playing from a respectable tee box, I'd go with the following for the courses I've played. Toughest first.

 

Bethpage

Whistling Straits

Erin Hills

TPC Sawgrass

Torrey Pines South

 

[quikblitz]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah is very tough and if the wind is blowing good luck!

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

 

 
 

Great lists so far

 

and good clarifications- major venues included, difficulty for the non-tour player

Spyglass Hill.  Though yeah, it's not Kiawah or Stadium West from the back-backs.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[Pnwpingi210]

5 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Spyglass Hill.  Though yeah, it's not Kiawah or Stadium West from the back-backs.

To be a fair, the back back or tour tees are rarely out for daily play.  I would consider the normal back tees as the criteria for this ask.

 

 

 

[BombinJim]

Pinehurst #2 is pretty difficult. Super tight lies and very penalizing if you miss one of those classic Donald Ross greens.

[OnTheBag]

9 minutes ago, jvincent said:

 

Agreed on Bethpage. Erin Hills can be pretty tough if you aren't accurate off the tee. I think Chambers is actually pretty playable.

 

Assuming you're not tipping it out and playing from a respectable tee box, I'd go with the following for the courses I've played. Toughest first.

 

Bethpage

Whistling Straits

Erin Hills

TPC Sawgrass

Torrey Pines South

 

Whistling Straits is a good one that I forgot about.  A great example of "difficulty is in the eye of the beholder", I never found TPC Sawgrass to be that difficult, except for a couple of holes.  

[Eastflava0]

Last season by stroke average - https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/records/toughest-courses

 

I've had the pleasure of playing TPC Sawgrass three days after the Players and a month later, two different courses, for me it was 15 shot difference from same tees. The rough was insane (worse than my experiences at Bethpage) and the green speeds absurdly fast, "These guys are good" was the most under sold slogan ever.

 

Difficulty of a course is really dependent on conditions and setup.  Obviously US Open venues are among the toughest but what about Carnoustie in 30 mph gusts? And Augusta is a totally different course in November than it is in April.   

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Eastflava0

[PeteNC]

3 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

Bethpage Black without a doubt is the hardest, IMHO.  Next would be Erin Hills or Chambers Bay.  I've caddied events at all 3 and played a few holes during scouting but haven't played a full round at all the public courses to host a US Open.  

 

Harbour Town would be hard for a bomber.  It is a shot maker's course in the best possible way.  

 

Course difficulty varies from player to player.  What sets up well to my eye, may bore you to death.

 

Kiawah is harder than all of those.  You see higher scores and Bethpage and Chambers bay switched par 5's to 4's as the course isn't as hard overall.  

[Raz1374]

Kiawah and Bethpage are both on the Mt. Rushmore of difficult courses.  What separates them from others, is that they really don’t have to do a lot for the tour pros to come in and play. The rough at Bethpage is always thick, the approach shots are almost always challenging (based on the Club you have to hit into 10-12 of the holes). For Kiawah, the runoffs are always there and the wind is nearly always a factor. Other courses have to grow the rough out, shave runoff areas, tighten the fairways down.  These two are plug and play. 

[vallygolf]

This is a relatively easy answer, as Spyglass Hill is the second most difficult public annual PGA tour stop course for the pros for scoring. And plays more difficult on a daily basis for the average golfer than the #1 course which is Torrey Pines.  The combination of narrow fairways and quick undulating green complexes is off the charts.  Spyglass green complexes make Bethpage black complexes look stupid easy.  BPB is more demanding tee to approach (also isnt a routine tour stop).  I have played all the hardest public PGA stops multiple times, with about 15 rounds at spyglass under my belt, it is just so hard to score on.

 

 

 

[monty09]

18 hours ago, jvincent said:

 

Agreed on Bethpage. Erin Hills can be pretty tough if you aren't accurate off the tee. I think Chambers is actually pretty playable.

 

Assuming you're not tipping it out and playing from a respectable tee box, I'd go with the following for the courses I've played. Toughest first.

 

Bethpage

Whistling Straits

Erin Hills

TPC Sawgrass

Torrey Pines South

 

 

 

agree with this list 100%

[OnTheBag]

20 hours ago, PeteNC said:

 

Kiawah is harder than all of those.  You see higher scores and Bethpage and Chambers bay switched par 5's to 4's as the course isn't as hard overall.  

Agreed in the wind, but on a calm day, Kiawah isn't quite as tough as some others.  An example of how the wind effects that course is to compare the 2012 PGA Championship to the 2021.  McIlroy shot -13 or -14 in 2012, while Phil scratched out -6 in 2021 dealing with heavy winds.  I caddied in the 2007 Senior PGA when Denis Watson won at -9, the winds were off and on that week and the course setup brought a lot of natural area dunes into play.

 

I don't recall any winner at Bethpage breaking -10.  

 

Either way, they are all hard course for us mere mortals.

[jibbs1082]

On 11/27/2023 at 1:16 PM, Pnwpingi210 said:

What are the top 5 most difficult USA pga tour courses that are accessible to the general public?

 

Accessible to general public criteria:  a round can be booked by a member of the general public, including out of state.  

 

In order...

 

Non Majors:

 

Innisbrook Copperhead without a doubt (Valspar)

Sawgrass (Players)

Harbor Town (RBC)

PGA National (Honda)

Torrey Pines South (Farmers)

 

Majors:

 

Bethpage

Whistling Straits

Kiawah

Chambers Bay

No. 2

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by jibbs1082

[PeteNC]

3 hours ago, OnTheBag said:

Agreed in the wind, but on a calm day, Kiawah isn't quite as tough as some others.  An example of how the wind effects that course is to compare the 2012 PGA Championship to the 2021.  McIlroy shot -13 or -14 in 2012, while Phil scratched out -6 in 2021 dealing with heavy winds.  I caddied in the 2007 Senior PGA when Denis Watson won at -9, the winds were off and on that week and the course setup brought a lot of natural area dunes into play.

 

I don't recall any winner at Bethpage breaking -10.  

 

Either way, they are all hard course for us mere mortals.

If you look at total score, cut line, avg score - Kiawah plays a few strokes harder.  The year Rory won his score was a huge outlier.  

 

Beyond just the pro's, if you took 0, 5, 10, and 15 digit handicappers they'd fare much much worse at Kiawah.  

[DoughBack18]

Surprised no mention of Pebble Beach. Have a few friends who have played it and all said they found it very challenging. 
 

Personally, I have played Bethpage and Spyglass. Bethpage was significantly more difficult in my opinion. Not saying Spyglass is easy, but I was able to make several birdies out there and was still able to hit some wedges and short irons into par 4’s… Bethpage felt like every par 4 was driver-long iron and you just never got much of a break.

[SilverBullets]

On 11/28/2023 at 3:19 PM, DoughBack18 said:

Surprised no mention of Pebble Beach. Have a few friends who have played it and all said they found it very challenging. 
 

Personally, I have played Bethpage and Spyglass. Bethpage was significantly more difficult in my opinion. Not saying Spyglass is easy, but I was able to make several birdies out there and was still able to hit some wedges and short irons into par 4’s… Bethpage felt like every par 4 was driver-long iron and you just never got much of a break.

Pebble is challenging but it's very playable at the same time.  It's not overly long, the rough isn't kept overly thick and the greens aren't all that complex.  It's obviously still a challenging track so I'm not trying to say it's easy but I thought Spyglass was substantially more difficult (I've played both of them twice and walked off with the same opinion both times).  

 

Pebble presents some of the most demanding approach shots of any course I've played.  That's the most difficult part of navigating the course.  The greens are freaking tiny.  However, when you miss the green, as long as you chip your next one anywhere on the putting surface, you have a pretty tame 2-putt left.  You can kind of get around the course not hitting the ball well making a bunch of easy bogies as long as you keep the ball in play and get near the green on your approach.  Whereas places like Kiawah, #2, and even Spyglass, you've got big numbers lurking around every corner.  

[jda]

Torrey South from 7800 is the hardest that I have ever played - if the air gets heavy and there is much wind, then forget about it..  Black course is next, but you can play it from 6200 and it doesn't kill you.  Is Kiawah Ocean Course had 40-50+ mph winds and it was impossible - hard to judge and nearly all of us outdrove that Rory drive on 18 since the wind was blowing so hard.  The others that I have played don't really count since they were not set up even remotely close to how the tour would play them.

[jvincent]

It's funny reading all the Ocean Course comments.

 

I've played it twice and both times there was at most a 1-club wind and I didn't find it terribly tough.

[jibbs1082]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:22 PM, Eastflava0 said:

Last season by stroke avgerage - https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/records/toughest-courses

 

I've had the pleasure of playing TPC Sawgrass three days after the Players and a month later, two different courses, for me it was 15 shot difference from same tees. The rough was insane (worse than my experiences at Bethpage) and the green speeds absurdly fast, "These guys are good" was the most under sold slogan ever.

 

Difficulty of a course is really dependent on conditions and setup.  Obviously US Open venues are among the toughest but what about Carnoustie in 30 mph gusts? And Augusta is a totally different course in November than it is in April.   

 

 

 

Well this settles it pretty quickly 😂 👍

 

To your point, I played Copperhead 3 weeks before the Valspar and it was torture if off the fairway or greenside.

 

I guess a valid thread would be "Toughest course, when set up for public play" being separate (and likely a little different list) from "Toughest course when set up for Tour play"

Edited November 30, 2023 by jibbs1082

[Pnwpingi210]

31 minutes ago, jibbs1082 said:

 

Well this settles it pretty quickly 😂 👍

 

To your point, I played Copperhead 3 weeks before the Valspar and it was torture if off the fairway or greenside.

 

I guess a valid thread would be "Toughest course, when set up for public play" being separate (and likely a little different list) from "Toughest course when set up for Tour play"

Yes - I was going for tour and major courses, open to the general public, setup for daily play.

 

i think we are achieving that, just some opinions on ranking 1-5.  But the course list seems pretty consistent 

[SilverBullets]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:46 PM, jvincent said:

It's funny reading all the Ocean Course comments.

 

I've played it twice and both times there was at most a 1-club wind and I didn't find it terribly tough.

Wind makes a very large difference there. I've played it 3 times.  The first time I played it, it was one of those 20-25 mph wind days.  I remember getting through the first like 10 or 11 thinking 'meh, I've played harder'... then I started having to aim multiple fairways over or hang drives out over the ocean just to keep the ball on the course on the way in lol.  

 

Second time I played it, it was basically just a 1 club wind.  Still not easy but the back 9 is a lot more manageable when you're not trying to find out how many holes over you need to aim your driver to get it to land on your hole lol

 

3rd time was like a carbon copy of the 1st round with just a little more gusts but less steady wind.

 

What's funny is I shot fairly similar scores all 3 rounds (spread out over 5 years).  I think it was 85, 82, 84 if I recall.  But I hit the ball the worst during the 82... it just wasn't that windy

Edited December 4, 2023 by SilverBullets

[jda]

One of our Ocean Course days was winds so hard that you could see everybody's 6 pack and junk as clothes were pinned against us... 180-200 yard drives into the wind and driver then 9 iron into 16 and driver and 60 degree wedge into 18.  Any exposed skin was exfoliated by the grit in the wind.  It was still a lot of fun.  I have found the course fairly easy for our normal setup because we have had excellent caddies.

 

We played once just before this last PGA and they had most of the stands up.  Caddy told us on a few occasions to blast it long and take the drop from behind the greens... kinda fun.

[handyquacks17]

for non major play it is pga national or torrey pines. Both very demanding courses. I played pga national a few weeks after the tournament in 2021 and it was so dam hard. 25 mph winds, glass greens. Just a super tough test

[RoyaleWithCheese]

On 11/30/2023 at 2:33 PM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Yes - I was going for tour and major courses, open to the general public, setup for daily play.

Theoretically we could take that list from the PGA Tour and compare their slope ratings… that data would paint a partial picture

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by RoyaleWithCheese

[smashdn]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:22 PM, Eastflava0 said:

Last season by stroke average - https://www.pgatourmediaguide.com/records/toughest-courses

 

I've had the pleasure of playing TPC Sawgrass three days after the Players and a month later, two different courses, for me it was 15 shot difference from same tees. The rough was insane (worse than my experiences at Bethpage) and the green speeds absurdly fast, "These guys are good" was the most under sold slogan ever.

 

Difficulty of a course is really dependent on conditions and setup.  Obviously US Open venues are among the toughest but what about Carnoustie in 30 mph gusts? And Augusta is a totally different course in November than it is in April.   

 

 

 

Before you posted that I was going to guess MV on the list somewhere nearish the top 8-5.  I figure with as much as JN has added length and tinkered, and during covid when it stepped in as surrogate major venue, it played pretty hard.  I also bet there is a lot more pushing that could be done but JN held it back to an extent to not just bludgeon the players.