Putting on lightning fast Bermuda

[Sp4zRX]

One of my local courses has super fast Bermuda greens. They are about a pure as can be with not a single ball mark because they are too hard to even leave a ball mark. 
 

I really struggle putting on these greens. The last time I played there I had four 4-putts inside 10ft, one was inside 5ft. I had a couple putts in the 8-10ft range that were on a very slight downhill that a barely tapped the ball, I don’t think I could tap the ball any lighter, and it missed the hole and I have a 12 footer coming back. 😭 

 

The putts also break a lot. Normally, inside 6ft with a slight break, I might be a little more aggressive with the putt to take break out and still aim inside the hole but the penalty for missing those putts on these greens is a 15-20 footer coming back. 
 

Obviously, much of my struggles is due to lack of experience putting on greens like this but I was wondering if anyone had ideas for a better way to think and strategize with these types of greens?

[LongNwrong27]

8 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

One of my local courses has super fast Bermuda greens. They are about a pure as can be with not a single ball mark because they are too hard to even leave a ball mark. 
 

I really struggle putting on these greens. The last time I played there I had four 4-putts inside 10ft, one was inside 5ft. I had a couple putts in the 8-10ft range that were on a very slight downhill that a barely tapped the ball, I don’t think I could tap the ball any lighter, and it missed the hole and I have a 12 footer coming back. 😭 

 

The putts also break a lot. Normally, inside 6ft with a slight break, I might be a little more aggressive with the putt to take break out and still aim inside the hole but the penalty for missing those putts on these greens is a 15-20 footer coming back. 
 

Obviously, much of my struggles is due to lack of experience putting on greens like this but I was wondering if anyone had ideas for a better way to think and strategize with these types of greens?

If you’re inside of 6 feet and you’re hitting it hard enough to miss the hole and have 15-20 feet back with any frequency, you are hitting it way way way too hard or the pins are just unfair and in poor spots with too much slope relative to the speed of the greens. 
 

would suggest hitting it so if you miss the putt the ball ends up level with or just pass the hole. Sure that may not always be possible and I have rarely had these putts where if you miss from above the hole you are looking at 15 feet coming back but it shouldn’t be that common where it’s happening many times a round. If they are truly that bad then I would try to hit it off the toe of the putter or even work on hitting it as soft as possible. 
 

generally hitting it harder to take the break out of it is a bad move on greens like this, risk reward way too high and hitting it faster decreases the effective size of the hole. Goal should be to putt the ball in the hole where it ends up a foot past if you miss. 

[DaveLeeNC]

You might try a little bit of short lag putting practice on a tile, hardwood,  or concrete floor. Just a thought. 

 

dave

[TLUBulldogGolf]

You have to take almost all the hit out of the stroke. I really lighten my grip pressure when the greens get super fast. Though some of these sound like unreasonable pin placements.

[MelloYello]

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach equal with or beyond the hole else you'll face some impossible downhill putt.

 

Truthfully, that's rule #1 and you just have to start playing to avoid these disastrous putts. These are not birdie holes unless you happen to hit your approach 10-ft below the cup leaving some relatively straight uphill putt. You have to be careful and play somewhat defensively on your approach to avoid impossible putts. 

 

We have several of these greens at my home club. If you end up behind the hole, you have to breathe on it and hope that *maybe* it stops within a few feet of the cup, but that's virtually impossible from 30+ feet behind the cup on a 6% slope. It's not crazy that putts missing the hole on their down may easily end up 10-ft or more beyond the cup when the ball stops rolling. 

 

So, the lag putting may be hopeless on some of those holes. You may simply be mis-playing the hole by ever hitting beyond the cup. 

 

Once you're inside of 10-ft though, you should be able to deal with it, even if these putts require careful attention.

 

 > Try holding the putter as lightly as you can. This creates a softer stroke.  

 > Move the putter (slowly) without any additional wrist action.

  > Let the putter hang the whole way through using just a little shoulder rocking to slowly stroke back-and-through. 

[getitdaily]

Couple of things 

 

1. Putting starts from the fairway. When greens are slick, you have to stay below the hole. Assuming you know the greens well enough, you need to manage approach shots so you're not above the hole.

 

2. Work on speed. Do drills where you hit a 5 footer so it barely creeps over the edge. Then hit those same 5 footers where they fall into the center of the hole but DO NOT touch the back of the cup. Then hit the same 5 footer where it hits the back of the cup. This will help with pace control.

 

3. Play more break than you usually do.

 

4. Downhill is always downgrain. Find the green speed before the round and find out how your "spot' changes. 10 foot putt that's downhill 1-2 degrees means you may be looking at a spot a foot or more before the hole as your spot to putt to. The hole is never your visual distance spot on downhill, fast green putts.

[DaveLeeNC]

7 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach...

This was a while back where consideration was being given to holding a significant event at one of our courses (I think it was a US Open qualifier event). This was an early 1970's course and the USGA told the club that there were a couple of greens where "there were no acceptable pin placements". The club did a huge overhaul of this course not long after that. 

 

dave

Edited November 30, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[ShortGolfer]

This is where lob wedges, expensive urethane balls, and wedge practice can pay off.  A good lob shot can keep the ball on the green despite being above the hole!

Then your lob shot needs to be long enough to be just below the hole, and not a couple feet above it.  Directly below the hole is best.

I find it better to have less break than a shorter putt.  I make a lot of ten foot putts that don't break. 

I've been practicing getting out of bad lies rather than pitching/chipping accuracy.  I figure I can learn precise distances later.

In the morning, study dew marks.  Watch the ball carefully.  Never look away no matter how bad your putting stroke.

I've done a lot of chipping green practice.  My first general impression of the break as I walk up to the ball can be surprisingly accurate for a long putt.

Edited November 30, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, ShortGolfer said:

I find it better to have less break than a shorter putt.

 

You may be a unicorn, but the stats aren't going to back you on that. The make rate falls off FAST from 2-10 feet. You're better off being closer to the hole than having a putt with less break (or an uphill putt).

 

But don't mind me, I'm still chuckling at the thought of a 10.5% sloped green. 🤣

 

As to the OP… just… hit them softer. Unless the holes are in truly goofy spots (i.e. 4% or higher) with really high stimps… figure it out. Is the practice green similar? Put down some ghost holes and stop the ball by the ghost hole. Learn how much break you may have to play on some putts. Etc.

 

Video would help. Record yourself hitting one of these bad boys.

[bluedot]

55 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach equal with or beyond the hole else you'll face some impossible downhill putt.

 

Truthfully, that's rule #1 and you just have to start playing to avoid these disastrous putts. These are not birdie holes unless you happen to hit your approach 10-ft below the cup leaving some relatively straight uphill putt. You have to be careful and play somewhat defensively on your approach to avoid impossible putts. 

 

We have several of these greens at my home club. If you end up behind the hole, you have to breathe on it and hope that *maybe* it stops within a few feet of the cup, but that's virtually impossible from 30+ feet behind the cup on a 6% slope. It's not crazy that putts missing the hole on their down may easily end up 10-ft or more beyond the cup when the ball stops rolling. 

 

So, the lag putting may be hopeless on some of those holes. You may simply be mis-playing the hole by ever hitting beyond the cup. 

 

Once you're inside of 10-ft though, you should be able to deal with it, even if these putts require careful attention.

 

 > Try holding the putter as lightly as you can. This creates a softer stroke.  

 > Move the putter (slowly) without any additional wrist action.

  > Let the putter hang the whole way through using just a little shoulder rocking to slowly stroke back-and-through. 

This is a good, realistic post. I play a LOT of tournament golf at private clubs with crazy fast Bermuda greens, and it is not uncommon at all to have the type of putts that the OP is referring to.  A couple of weeks ago, I watched a 20’ birdie putt from a 3 index trickle past the hole, pick up speed, and go off the green and 20 yds down the fairway; he hit a GREAT chip and made a 5 footer for bogey.  And that pin was dead in the middle of the green!
 

I think this is especially common, as MelloYellow points out, on older course that were “early adopters” of Bermuda, especially Champion, and did NOT recontour.  The old-style back to front slopes really cause problems, especially when the putt is down grain, which is usually the case.  These putts just have to be avoided, and there really isn’t much way to successfully practice them.
 

One other thing that might help:  If you are on a course like this, consider that the only distance you are really going to be interested in on a lot of holes is the distance to the front of the green.  Unlike Bent, carrying it to the pin just doesn’t work, and a chip (or putt) from off the green but below the hole is often going to be a much better option than even being hole high, much less above the hole.

 

I feel for you; putting on greens like this is exhausting and not a lot of fun.  The round I referenced in the first paragraph took 5 1/2 hours, primarily because everyone in the field was grinding on the greens, even on 2 footers.  

[Sp4zRX]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach equal with or beyond the hole else you'll face some impossible downhill putt.

Interesting…. this may be the case. Many of the greens are sloped back to front.

 

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Couple of things 

 

1. Putting starts from the fairway. When greens are slick, you have to stay below the hole. Assuming you know the greens well enough, you need to manage approach shots so you're not above the hole.

My skill level generally dictates shooting for middle of green, favoring back side but your suggestion is absolutely something I think is required at this particular course, even for my skill level

 

18 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

As to the OP… just… hit them softer. Unless the holes are in truly goofy spots (i.e. 4% or higher) with really high stimps… figure it out. Is the practice green similar? Put down some ghost holes and stop the ball by the ghost hole. Learn how much break you may have to play on some putts. Etc.

 

Video would help. Record yourself hitting one of these bad boys.

. 
I don’t have experience measuring slope degrees so I could be way off but my best guess is around 2-3* slope back to front. 
 

The practice green is similar but is flatter than the tougher greens on the course. I will try to get a video next time I’m out there. I might grab something to measure slope as well as I know slope is hard to capture on video. 
 

 

I guess the general consensus is I need to spend time practicing on these greens and when reasonable, try to play below the hole. 

[Sp4zRX]

17 minutes ago, bluedot said:

This is a good, realistic post. I play a LOT of tournament golf at private clubs with crazy fast Bermuda greens, and it is not uncommon at all to have the type of putts that the OP is referring to.  A couple of weeks ago, I watched a 20’ birdie putt from a 3 index trickle past the hole, pick up speed, and go off the green and 20 yds down the fairway; he hit a GREAT chip and made a 5 footer for bogey.  And that pin was dead in the middle of the green!

 

I feel for you; putting on greens like this is exhausting and not a lot of fun.  The round I referenced in the first paragraph took 5 1/2 hours, primarily because everyone in the field was grinding on the greens, even on 2 footers.  

Yes, everyone is the group was struggling like this. One guy chipped on softly to back of green to a middle pin and looked like it was about to stop way short, then just started rolling and rolled off the front of the green down a slope and left him with a 15 yard chip coming back. 
 

I agree, it almost just makes it not even fun. It’s such a good course at a very fair value but I don’t know if it’s really worth the frustration. 

[Santiago Golf]

Slope is measured in percent not degrees 

 

Speed is the only thing that matters in putting ... the better player you are, the better green reader you are (unless you are a caddie), and if you are a terrible green reader and a scratch golfer, get a caddie to read them for you and you will go to a plus 1

 

Putting doesn't matter that much ... I might get roasted for that take

 

Learn to control speed on all putts

Putt a tee at 6 inches, 12 inches, and 2 feet from the fringe

from 3 to 10 feet try to stop the ball 6 inches from the fringe

from 10 to 20 feet try to stop the ball 12 inches from the fringe

from 20+ try to stop the ball 2 feet from the fringe

 

Length of swing is important, on greens that stimp 10 with moderate rhythm use the following (this is not a perfect science btw)

1 inch back equals 1 foot

2 inch back equals 3 foot

3 inches back equals 6 foot

3.5 inches back equals 10 foot

4 inches back equals 15 foot

5 inches back equals 20 foot 

6 inches back equals 25 foot

 

Follow through should be roughly .5 inch to full inch shorter than backswing

 

These some thoughts to think about, I might get roasted for these takes but this what I have found works for myself and people I teach

 

Putting Skill is a small factor of the game and scoring ... the # of 1st putts you make has more to do with your ball striking and short game skills than it does to do with your ability to make a good putting motion. 

 

I've caddied for players with terrible looking strokes (12+ handicaps) and they end up making 3 or 4 pullies (putts longer than the flag) in the round

 

I've caddied for players with beautiful strokes with perfectly fit putters (3 handicap) and they end up making nothing all round 

 

Yet the 3 handicap beets the 12 ... 28 out of 30 days in the month

 

end of my rant

[TLUBulldogGolf]

7 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

Yes, everyone is the group was struggling like this. One guy chipped on softly to back of green to a middle pin and looked like it was about to stop way short, then just started rolling and rolled off the front of the green down a slope and left him with a 15 yard chip coming back. 
 

I agree, it almost just makes it not even fun. It’s such a good course at a very fair value but I don’t know if it’s really worth the frustration. 

 

If it's to the point of being unfair it's definitely not fun. Even if they are are right on the edge where you can stop it by the hole but if you're not careful it's gone and you have to be defensive all day it can make it not fun. Though I think the experience of playing on it can make you a better player. 

[third-times-a-charm]

Pray. Mostly.

[iacas]

49 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

I don’t have experience measuring slope degrees so I could be way off but my best guess is around 2-3* slope back to front. 
 

The practice green is similar but is flatter than the tougher greens on the course. I will try to get a video next time I’m out there. I might grab something to measure slope as well as I know slope is hard to capture on video.

 

Just do it in % slope, yeah.

 

3° is over 5% slope, so… that's possible.

[Ri_Redneck]

We had a course in East TX that opened back in the 90s that had the first Tiff Eagle greens in the area. They had a par 5 green that in July - Aug. You could PLACE a ball on the back and it would proceed to roll all the way across the green some 70+ feet and into the fringe on the front! Total clown show. They had to start cutting it longer just so people would continue to play the course! They eventually rebuilt the green reducing the slope and adding more level places for pin locations.

 

For fast greens though, you still have to practice on them periodically to get a feel for them. If I get on a course with 12+ stimps, I have to spend a good while calibrating to them.

 

BT

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

But don't mind me, I'm still chuckling at the thought of a 10.5% sloped green. 🤣

The entire green is a 10.5% grade?! 

Does it come with crampons and belaying gear?

 

That said, some of those slopes I've seen between tiers on a green....oy.

 

OP, I read Bermuda, and the first thing I think of is "grain."  Are you taking grain into account enough on these shots?

[st1800e]

Lighter putter for fast greens. One with weights you can change out or an old Ping Anser from the ‘70’s.  

[MelloYello]

4 hours ago, Sp4zRX said:

Interesting…. this may be the case. Many of the greens are sloped back to front.

 

My skill level generally dictates shooting for middle of green, favoring back side but your suggestion is absolutely something I think is required at this particular course, even for my skill level

 

. 
I don’t have experience measuring slope degrees so I could be way off but my best guess is around 2-3* slope back to front. 
 

The practice green is similar but is flatter than the tougher greens on the course. I will try to get a video next time I’m out there. I might grab something to measure slope as well as I know slope is hard to capture on video. 
 

 

I guess the general consensus is I need to spend time practicing on these greens and when reasonable, try to play below the hole. 

 

Buy a simple $25 digital level off Amazon and go measure some of the more interesting places on your course. And while you're at it, measure the practice green too--which I bet doesn't feature some of those crazy slopes. 

 

My home course is bentgrass which stimps anywhere between 8-11 throughout the year. On several greens we see as much as 6% slope (which is crazy). Because the bermuda of the fringe has encroached on our bentgrass greens over the years, the greens themselves are now relatively small and thus we often have limited options for pin placement. We often end up sticking pins in places that used to separate two relatively flat spots. So I routinely face "impossible" pin positions like you described. We're currently planning a huge capital project which will involve going to bermuda as well as enlarging and re-countering the greens.  

 

Another thing is to keep in mind that if the practice green itself doesn't challenge you like the course you may not be getting the type of practice you really need. I routinely find that our relatively flat practice green leaves me scrambling to get used to the crazy slopes of our actual course. 

[Sp4zRX]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

Lighter putter for fast greens. One with weights you can change out or an old Ping Anser from the ‘70’s.  

I’m using a Mizuno OMOI 2 putter with the heaviest 13g weights. It did cross my mind that maybe that wasn’t helping my cause. 

[st1800e]

16 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

I’m using a Mizuno OMOI 2 putter with the heaviest 13g weights. It did cross my mind that maybe that wasn’t helping my cause. 

Reading online lots of references to that putter being on the heavy side.  370-383 grams. Try it without any weights.  IIRC average weight today are around 350, and decades ago 320.  

[jonsnow]

6 hours ago, MelloYello said:

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach equal with or beyond the hole else you'll face some impossible downhill putt.

 

Truthfully, that's rule #1 and you just have to start playing to avoid these disastrous putts. These are not birdie holes unless you happen to hit your approach 10-ft below the cup leaving some relatively straight uphill putt. You have to be careful and play somewhat defensively on your approach to avoid impossible putts. 

 

We have several of these greens at my home club. If you end up behind the hole, you have to breathe on it and hope that *maybe* it stops within a few feet of the cup, but that's virtually impossible from 30+ feet behind the cup on a 6% slope. It's not crazy that putts missing the hole on their down may easily end up 10-ft or more beyond the cup when the ball stops rolling. 

 

So, the lag putting may be hopeless on some of those holes. You may simply be mis-playing the hole by ever hitting beyond the cup. 

 

Once you're inside of 10-ft though, you should be able to deal with it, even if these putts require careful attention.

 

 > Try holding the putter as lightly as you can. This creates a softer stroke.  

 > Move the putter (slowly) without any additional wrist action.

  > Let the putter hang the whole way through using just a little shoulder rocking to slowly stroke back-and-through. 

Our course is a good example of this. Sometimes it combines with odd design features to make a nearly unplayable hole. Our 12th hole is a short (250 yard) par 4 that's extremely uphill with most of the upslope right in front of the green; couldn't begin to guess what the degree of slope is. It's hard to walk up. We hosted a mini tour event back in the summer. One player had a 5-foot eagle putt from behind the hole. 

 

He had 80 yards left for his 3rd shot...absolutely no way to stop the ball on the green or the slope in front of it. 

[ChaosTheory]

Generally accepted practice is heavier putter for faster greens, lighter for slower greens.  That’s been my experience as well.

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, Snowman9000 said:

Generally accepted practice is heavier putter for faster greens, lighter for slower greens.  That’s been my experience as well.

My experience is the opposite.  

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

2 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

...One player had a 5-foot eagle putt from behind the hole. 

 

He had 80 yards left for his 3rd shot...absolutely no way to stop the ball on the green or the slope in front of it. 

Gus Wortham, a muni in Houston, has a similar hole at #7.  Elevated green (we actually have a few hills in Houston.  Though maybe it's an old landfill) with a significant sloped false front and a long steeper slope after to some rough before a water hazard.  The hazard ends about 50 yds before the middle of the green, 35 yds before the front edge, and about 25 or so from the end of the false front.  Sloped back to front.

 

Google Earth claims only 18' of elevation from the fairway, but I'm pressing X for doubt.

 

Anyway, one cold December round last year, with a North head wind, the greenskeeper thought it was cool to put the hole up front, say 3-4 yds from the front edge, on a slope, when the green was exceptionally dry.  Absolutely terrifying/hilarious to watch me and my group try to putt this thing.

 

Basically you made it or you got to walk to the bottom of the hill, hoping your ball didn't have enough speed to bounce into the hazard, to try your now 40 yd pitch.  Great fun!

 

[jonsnow]

Exactly. You get it going past the hole, it ain't stopping for a while....

[skim4]

Bermuda in the fall on older courses.... pray. I had a 3 foot side hill putt that I played over a foot of break on. Hit it very soft and the ball rolled off of the front of the green. 

My course needs a whole new course rating for how fast and hard they get this time of year. Easy holes become monsters. They are not playable for any legit tournament this time of year. 

[Barfolomew]

Practice the fastest you can find on practice green....

 

We call this one spot Double Black Diamond.... touch it too much goes off green lol..... but you can develop great touch and dial it in but do have to get used to it

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Barfolomew

[TwistedSister]

2 hours ago, Sp4zRX said:

I’m using a Mizuno OMOI 2 putter with the heaviest 13g weights. It did cross my mind that maybe that wasn’t helping my cause. 

I use heavier putter on faster greens. Lighter ones on slower.