Putting on lightning fast Bermuda

[Nard_S]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

The single biggest issue I see in putting is likely short, slow backswings and massive acceleration with big, long follow-throughs. I'll leave it at that.

Funny I routinely see, too long backswing that's too slow going back into a fast transition requiring too much decel at impact.  I guess your thinking is heavy putters smooth out tempo issues, they might but that goal, the framework of slowing it down at impact is exactly what is problematic. Dave Stockton figured this out decades ago, he is decidedly camp that peak is in front of impact, just like a full swing, you don't need a massive putter with MOI of the charts with that technique, you do with yours. I'll leave here.

[iacas]

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Funny I routinely see, too long backswing that's too slow going back into a fast transition requiring too much decel at impact.

 

You must exist in a different world. 😄 It's like 15:1 here, or higher.

 

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

I guess your thinking is heavy putters smooth out tempo issues, they might but that goal, the framework of slowing it down at impact is exactly what is problematic.

 

You're not "actively" slowing it down, though. I think you have a picture in your mind that isn't the reality. A pendulum doesn't appear to be slowing down right after low point.

 

17 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

you don't need a massive putter with MOI of the charts with that technique, you do with yours.

 

Not sure where you're getting that from. I can putt really well with a Bullseye.

 

The chart above is Tiger's. Most of the PGA Tour's best putters decelerate or have flat speed through impact.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by iacas

[Trippels]

41 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

You must exist in a different world. 😄 It's like 15:1 here, or higher.

 

 

You're not "actively" slowing it down, though. I think you have a picture in your mind that isn't the reality. A pendulum doesn't appear to be slowing down right after low point.

 

 

Not sure where you're getting that from. I can putt really well with a Bullseye.

 

The chart above is Tiger's. Most of the PGA Tour's best putters decelerate or have flat speed through impact.

 

Didn't know the flat speed, decel thing. What's the simplest cues to get close to it? Just try to get a longer backswing with shorter followthrough?

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Trippels said:

Didn't know the flat speed, decel thing. What's the simplest cues to get close to it? Just try to get a longer backswing with shorter followthrough?

 

Off topic for this thread, but… there's a bit more to it than that (not a ton). I'll try to follow up later.

[getitdaily]

8 hours ago, Trippels said:

Didn't know the flat speed, decel thing. What's the simplest cues to get close to it? Just try to get a longer backswing with shorter followthrough?

Imagine stopping the putter head at impact without slowing down from transition to impact. 

 

Old coach of mine had me do a drill where I hit a putt and as soon as face met ball he'd have me recoil the putter back several inches. 

[CSagan]

I’ve been preaching that longer back shorter through stroke to my buddy who is yippy. He takes it back short then throws right hand and has a big follow through..yip city. 

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, getitdaily said:

Old coach of mine had me do a drill where I hit a putt and as soon as face met ball he'd have me recoil the putter back several inches. 

"Bunting" Lol.

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

The chart above is Tiger's. Most of the PGA Tour's best putters decelerate or have flat speed through impact.

 

 

11 hours ago, iacas said:

You're not "actively" slowing it down, though. I think you have a picture in your mind that isn't the reality. A pendulum doesn't appear to be slowing down right after low point.

 

 

Their swing bottom is not at back of ball. You are promoting idea  back of ball as pendulum low point. Thier stroke is not actively doing that. Speed might be flat lining, that's not due to "pendulum" That is where I disagree. 

[Soloman1]

13 hours ago, iacas said:

The chart above is Tiger's. Most of the PGA Tour's best putters decelerate or have flat speed through impact.

 

Yep.

[st1800e]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Right… that video isn't about that specific thing. It's just about how different players generally benefit (IIRC) with different weighting profiles.

 

He's not talking about, again IIRC, the same player moving from a slow green to a fast green or vice versa.

 

But he is talking about in the example of that player putting it too far. Regardless, do you have a link to the study that you refer to? 

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Their swing bottom is not at back of ball. You are promoting idea  back of ball as pendulum low point. Thier stroke is not actively doing that. Speed might be flat lining, that's not due to "pendulum" That is where I disagree. 

 

I'm not, and I'm not sure where you've read that. The bottom of the arc is generally a little before the ball is hit in most good putters. Slightly positive AoA. This goes along with slight deceleration (not even noticeable most of the time, unless you "back into it" by observing that the follow-through is shorter than the backswing*). You can positively accelerate and have a positive AoA (flippy putters do this all the time).

 

* My follow-through used to be about 2x as long as my backswing, but my SAM readings showed slight deceleration at impact… I would just "coast" a lot on a long follow through at slow speeds. FWIW there's a David Orr video out there about this, too.

 

34 minutes ago, st1800e said:

But he is talking about in the example of that player putting it too far. Regardless, do you have a link to the study that you refer to? 

 

He's not an academic, and so it wasn't a peer reviewed published study or anything super official. It was a bunch of his testing and experience, which coincides with mine, and makes sense. It's not 100%, but it tends to be that way.

 

And… thanks @Soloman1.

[Soloman1]

29 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

I'm not, and I'm not sure where you've read that. The bottom of the arc is generally a little before the ball is hit in most good putters. Slightly positive AoA. This goes along with slight deceleration (not even noticeable most of the time, unless you "back into it" by observing that the follow-through is shorter than the backswing*). You can positively accelerate and have a positive AoA (flippy putters do this all the time).

 

* My follow-through used to be about 2x as long as my backswing, but my SAM readings showed slight deceleration at impact… I would just "coast" a lot on a long follow through at slow speeds. FWIW there's a David Orr video out there about this, too.

 

 

He's not an academic, and so it wasn't a peer reviewed published study or anything super official. It was a bunch of his testing and experience, which coincides with mine, and makes sense. It's not 100%, but it tends to be that way.

 

And… thanks @Soloman1.

 

I agree with you.

 

The “accelerate through the stroke” is one of those sayings that has been around for a long time.

 

I was late to the party on not accelerating and contact improvement. I only heard and read about it maybe six years ago, starting with Laird Small at Pebble Beach.

 

I remember also a study that showed small grip pressure changes by accelerating changed the face angle more than those who were constant or very slightly decelerating.

 

I can’t remember where now, but I’m an advocate now.

 

And, ironically with this topic, for faster greens.

 

 

[Nard_S]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

'm not, and I'm not sure where you've read that. The bottom of the arc is generally a little before the ball is hit in most good putters. Slightly positive AoA. This goes along with slight deceleration (not even noticeable most of the time, unless you "back into it" by observing that the follow-through is shorter than the backswing*). You can positively accelerate and have a positive AoA (flippy putters do this all the time).

And Tiger talks about having the right hand as final arbiter of impact (he controls the release, both ways) and near as I can tell the only way to do that is possessing shaft lean. The bottom of arc is when there is zero lean, so hands are ahead of putter head and unless you stall, bottom is past ball, so if you slow down and release behind, you do what you say they all do. In either case the framework is peak speed past ball. You build lean angle which is Dave Stockton in a nutshell. I basically re-configured my stroke on Stockton's left hand and Tiger's right hand. It works well for me. 

[iacas]

22 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

The bottom of arc is when there is zero lean

 

No. I de-loft about 2.5° (shaft lean) and hit up about the same. Shaft lean ≠ AoA/position on the arc. That's only really true if the end of the putter is the center of the arc.

 

Since you want to compare it to the full swing, you can de-loft many degrees more than your AoA.

 

22 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

In either case the framework is peak speed past ball.

 

No.

 

It's not the topic here, so… I'm trying to keep my replies short, but… it's all off topic.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by iacas