Putting on lightning fast Bermuda

[Pepperturbo]

8 hours ago, Sp4zRX said:

One of my local courses has super fast Bermuda greens. They are about a pure as can be with not a single ball mark because they are too hard to even leave a ball mark. 
 

I really struggle putting on these greens. The last time I played there I had four 4-putts inside 10ft, one was inside 5ft. I had a couple putts in the 8-10ft range that were on a very slight downhill that a barely tapped the ball, I don’t think I could tap the ball any lighter, and it missed the hole and I have a 12 footer coming back. 😭 

 

The putts also break a lot. Normally, inside 6ft with a slight break, I might be a little more aggressive with the putt to take break out and still aim inside the hole but the penalty for missing those putts on these greens is a 15-20 footer coming back. 
 

Obviously, much of my struggles is due to lack of experience putting on greens like this but I was wondering if anyone had ideas for a better way to think and strategize with these types of greens?

You're not alone, plenty of people have those same complaints, except for me. 

 

It's NOT about experience on fast greens.  Just change your perception of fast greens.  Like most people that hate fast greens or something about golf, they carry a lot of negativity with them, thus when you're over the ball it's bound to influence the outcome = 12' return.

 

Slow greens are simple to putt on, whereas putting on fast greens wakes me up.  When I look at the putt, I always remind myself, the green surface is perfect, nothing in the way to deflect the ball, so if I miss this putt, it's my own damn fault; surprisingly, that's when I make putts.  It's all about your frame of mind; if you believe you can make a putt, your chances of making it improve.

[LongNwrong27]

37 minutes ago, TwistedSister said:

I use heavier putter on faster greens. Lighter ones on slower.

Think opposite. Heavier putter transfers more energy , ball rolls more. You want lighter for faster greens 

[ChaosTheory]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Think opposite. Heavier putter transfers more energy , ball rolls more. You want lighter for faster greens 

Assuming you swing them at the same speed.  Which many people won’t do.  Probably depends on the type of stroke.  I hit heavier putters shorter and lighter ones longer.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, st1800e said:

Lighter putter for fast greens. One with weights you can change out or an old Ping Anser from the ‘70’s.  

 

The opposite.

 

1 hour ago, TwistedSister said:

I use heavier putter on faster greens. Lighter ones on slower.

 

Yeah, this. Except I literally never change my putter. 😄 If you have to hit a fast 15-footer, that's just a 12-footer or a 10-footer.

 

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Think opposite. Heavier putter transfers more energy , ball rolls more. You want lighter for faster greens 

 

People move heavier putters slower, and putter head speed is more important than weight (think about how kinetic energy equations being 1/2 mv^2 - the velocity is squared and matters more).

 

People feel a similar force against their hands with a heavier putter even if they swing them slower.

 

A minority will putt better with lighter putters on a faster green, but it's small. David Edel has tested this, I think I saw a PING study on this… and I've talked with a few other putting coaches who will say that this is the way it tends to work (not 100% of the time, just a majority).

Edited November 30, 2023 by iacas

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

A minority will putt better with lighter putters on a faster green, but it's small.

Looks like I’m in the minority.  

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Think opposite. Heavier putter transfers more energy , ball rolls more. You want lighter for faster greens 

 

Putterheads are way heavier than golf balls (by a factor of like 7 to 10, typically). Once the clubhead mass exceeds the mass of the ball by that much, adding mass to the clubhead does (almost) nothing to increase the speed of the ball leaving the clubface. All that happens is that the same amount of input force from the golfer will result in lower clubhead speed and, therefore, lower ball speed.

 

dave

Edited December 1, 2023 by DaveLeeNC

[Sp4zRX]

8 minutes ago, iacas said:

People move heavier putters slower, and putter head speed is more important than weight (think about how kinetic energy equations being 1/2 mv^2 - the velocity is squared and matters more).

 

People feel a similar force against their hands with a heavier putter even if they swing them slower.

 

A minority will putt better with lighter putters on a faster green, but it's small. David Edel has tested this, I think I saw a PING study on this… and I've talked with a few other putting coaches who will say that this is the way it tends to work (not 100% of the time, just a majority).

So would the reverse hold true with super hairy slow green? Players tend to putt better on slow greens with a lighter putter? 
 

Just curious. At the end of the day, I agree with you about not changing the putter or the weight. 

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

So would the reverse hold true with super hairy slow green? Players tend to putt better on slow greens with a lighter putter? 
 

Just curious. At the end of the day, I agree with you about not changing the putter or the weight. 

 

Yes. The bold below applies in both directions.

 

10 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Putterheads are way heavier than golf balls (by a factor of like 7 to 10, typically). Once the clubhead mass exceeds the mass of the ball by that much, adding mass to the clubhead does (almost) nothing to increase the speed of the ball leaving the clubface. All that happens is that the same amount of input force from the golfer will result in lower clubhead speed and, therefore, lower ball speed.

 

The same input force moves a lighter putter faster.

[CSagan]

My mom gets wrecked on fast greens and I always tell her to go look at the other side of the putt. Sometimes it’s hard to see when you’re putting down a cliff. Try and make it when you’re walking up to the green you are observing the slope and take a peak from beyond the hole and the side view on the putt to gauge what’s going on. 
 

DONT do all this when’s it’s on you to putt lol…get it done swiftly while people are fixing their ballmarks and stuff. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by CSagan

[sheepdawg]

I come from Memphis and many of the courses built in the 20s through the 70s had the plain front yard bermuda greens with plenty of contour since they were pretty slow. When the hybrid stuff came out in the 90s we had greens that you were chipping after a missed putt. The old timers would hit super quick putts away from the putter's sweet spot like out near the toe. With a little practice it would work sometimes.

 

If you're in Memphis go play the old Navy Base course in Millington and you'll see putts that will have you saying bad things.

Edited December 1, 2023 by sheepdawg

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

and putter head speed is more important than weight (think about how kinetic energy equations being 1/2 mv^2 - the velocity is squared and matters more).

Isn't momentum more applicable than K.E. for determining motion after a (mostly) elastic collision?

 

Still IME, the heavier works a tad better on fast surfaces, than lighter.  Might have to do with dampening out extraneous motion.  For me, it takes a more deliberate motion to move a heavier putter.  More deliberate = less stabby, more repeatable and precise.

 

Also, though I don't recommend switching grip styles just for this, a more palm-dominant grip---like from a wider putter grip---for me, is much better for deadening impact.  Almost too much so, when I first got this LAB.  Felt almost like I was trying to take it to shaft parallel on some of these longer putts, lol.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Jayjay_theweim_guy

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Still IME, the heavier works a tad better on fast surfaces, than lighter.

 

That's what I've said.

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Isn't momentum more applicable than K.E. for determining motion after a (mostly) elastic collision?

 

Yeah, I was wrong. Brain fart there — it's not like the smash factor increases by the square (or nearly the square removing some energy lost to heat, sound, etc.). Thanks for the catch. I can't even blame that it was late at night; maybe I can blame that I was distracted by Survivor. 😄

 

Heavier putters tend to scale back on speed faster than they scale up in weight and vice versa. Lever or pendulum mechanics comes into play - we aren't typically talking about adding weight near the hands, but rather, out at the putter head, a long ways from the hands.

 

P.S. I don't think the "mostly elastic" matters either.

[Pepperturbo]

19 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Think opposite. Heavier putter transfers more energy , ball rolls more. You want lighter for faster greens 

That might be true for mechanical people chasing science, but it's NOT true for feel players like me that make putts; heavier is better. 

 

There is no science formula to choosing a putter or irons, it's feel.  Since 2012 I have been using an SC California Monterey 34", 360g head at D5 on fast 11–13 greens.  Having 15yrs+ of tournament play under my belt, I say without hesitation, the putter does NOT make the putt, I make the putt. 

 

I visually identify the putt, then transform that into hand-eye-coordination, which feels the weight of the putter head, and needed length of stroke, for the ball to reach the cup, green speed is secondary.  A good putter adapts to the speed of the green.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[bm11]

On 11/30/2023 at 9:14 AM, MelloYello said:

Greens built in the 70s and 80s sometimes have massive back-to-front slope to as much as 6^o across virtually the whole green. This doesn't work with modern green speeds unfortunately. When green speeds peak in the summer/winter (based on grass type) you cannot safely leave your approach equal with or beyond the hole else you'll face some impossible downhill putt.

 

Truthfully, that's rule #1 and you just have to start playing to avoid these disastrous putts. These are not birdie holes unless you happen to hit your approach 10-ft below the cup leaving some relatively straight uphill putt. You have to be careful and play somewhat defensively on your approach to avoid impossible putts. 

 

We have several of these greens at my home club. If you end up behind the hole, you have to breathe on it and hope that *maybe* it stops within a few feet of the cup, but that's virtually impossible from 30+ feet behind the cup on a 6% slope. It's not crazy that putts missing the hole on their down may easily end up 10-ft or more beyond the cup when the ball stops rolling. 

 

So, the lag putting may be hopeless on some of those holes. You may simply be mis-playing the hole by ever hitting beyond the cup. 

 

Once you're inside of 10-ft though, you should be able to deal with it, even if these putts require careful attention.

 

 > Try holding the putter as lightly as you can. This creates a softer stroke.  

 > Move the putter (slowly) without any additional wrist action.

  > Let the putter hang the whole way through using just a little shoulder rocking to slowly stroke back-and-through. 

My club was originally designed in 1916. Fast forward to 12/1, modern course tech and a rock start of a Grounds Manager and you have a recipe for potentially impossible pin positions. It happens some days. 

[Mark38]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:31 PM, st1800e said:

Lighter putter for fast greens. One with weights you can change out or an old Ping Anser from the ‘70’s.  

I had been told heavier putter for fast greens awhile back.  That did not work.  Took the weights out(20g) and huge difference.  Lighter for me as well.

[Louis_Posture]

On 11/30/2023 at 5:23 AM, Sp4zRX said:

One of my local courses has super fast Bermuda greens. They are about a pure as can be with not a single ball mark because they are too hard to even leave a ball mark. 
 

I really struggle putting on these greens. The last time I played there I had four 4-putts inside 10ft, one was inside 5ft. I had a couple putts in the 8-10ft range that were on a very slight downhill that a barely tapped the ball, I don’t think I could tap the ball any lighter, and it missed the hole and I have a 12 footer coming back. 😭 

 

The putts also break a lot. Normally, inside 6ft with a slight break, I might be a little more aggressive with the putt to take break out and still aim inside the hole but the penalty for missing those putts on these greens is a 15-20 footer coming back. 
 

Obviously, much of my struggles is due to lack of experience putting on greens like this but I was wondering if anyone had ideas for a better way to think and strategize with these types of greens?

 

Buy a traditional weight putter of 300 to 315 gram head weight (any of the older Ping models or Acushnet brass head Bullseye Standard blade model etc...) with a traditional weight grip (35 to 55 grams). For many players the current heavy head putters and heavy grips make finding good effective touch on fast greens unnecessarily difficult.

[bladehunter]

Curious if the op is playing most of these putts straightish.  ?   My home course is Bermuda. Loads of slope.  I mean not a flat putt to be seen.  This time of year it’s lighting.  You have to choose the highest line possible and let it die around the hole.  And as others said , stop hitting it above the hole.  There’s no other trick.   Just figure out the speed.  And learn to use the slope to your advantage.  

[Sp4zRX]

45 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Curious if the op is playing most of these putts straightish.  ?   My home course is Bermuda. Loads of slope.  I mean not a flat putt to be seen.  This time of year it’s lighting.  You have to choose the highest line possible and let it die around the hole.  And as others said , stop hitting it above the hole.  There’s no other trick.   Just figure out the speed.  And learn to use the slope to your advantage.  

Not playing them straightish. They do break a lot more than the Bent greens I’m used to so I do play for it. This particular day I burned a lot of edges, good putts, just not dropping that day; although, there were a couple inside 5ft that I should have made but timid and over thinking from the beating I was taking on the greens that day. The main issue is trying to get the speed right. Very small mistakes are massively amplified and punished. 
 

Speed and play it below the hole. I like it. I’ll give it shot next time I’m out there. Thanks!
 

 

[bladehunter]

49 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

Not playing them straightish. They do break a lot more than the Bent greens I’m used to so I do play for it. This particular day I burned a lot of edges, good putts, just not dropping that day; although, there were a couple inside 5ft that I should have made but timid and over thinking from the beating I was taking on the greens that day. The main issue is trying to get the speed right. Very small mistakes are massively amplified and punished. 
 

Speed and play it below the hole. I like it. I’ll give it shot next time I’m out there. Thanks!
 

 

I understand.  Sounds exactly like my greens.  This time of year it’s just impossible to be aggressive ( and I’m naturally aggressive).  You just have to play defense and really stop trying to make any putt that’s not uphill. 
 

I heard nick Faldo say once that he watched the thumb nail on his right hand for slippery putts. And just barely moved it back and then through.  
 

 I love Bermuda greens.  but they do get slick when it gets cold. But I much prefer it to greens that you have to bash the ball on just to get it to the hole. 

[Soloman1]

It is about experience.

 

The theory that simply having the right mindset and beliefs is flawed. You can can have a positive mindset and belief that you can fly. I wouldn’t recommend jumping off the Grand Canyon, though.

 

I wouldn’t be so hard on yourself with greens that are extreme. The more you play them, the better you’ll get adapting to them. Mastering them may be a bridge too far for most people.

 

You can try different mechanical and visual ideas. In the end, you might find that they don’t do as much as “natural” touch.

 

You can make jump shots from different places on a basketball court without any instantaneous mechanical thoughts. They’re different distances.

 

Experience will help. Sometimes freeing your mind from mechanics can help you adapt.

[st1800e]

On 11/30/2023 at 4:52 PM, iacas said:

David Edel has tested this,

Watched a few of his. In this one there’s no reference to the majority or minority, simply more or less headweight and or counterweight depending on stroke type.  Maybe a majority have the same stroke type , but I’m not seeing it. 
 

 

[ChaosTheory]

As greens have gotten faster, putters have gotten heavier.  It’s not coincidence.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, st1800e said:

Watched a few of his. In this one there’s no reference to the majority or minority, simply more or less headweight and or counterweight depending on stroke type.  Maybe a majority have the same stroke type , but I’m not seeing it. 

 

Right… that video isn't about that specific thing. It's just about how different players generally benefit (IIRC) with different weighting profiles.

 

He's not talking about, again IIRC, the same player moving from a slow green to a fast green or vice versa.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by iacas

[Nard_S]

Not only is my putter light it's swing weight is in the C's. So I'm in minority and I play fast greens. Speed control is king. My view is heavy promotes a decelerated stroke, a bunting mentality. Light putter promotes exact opposite which is conducive to better speed control. My putter is rather short too. It's the one aspect of game that's above pay grade and I find it interesting that it is said heavy putter & fast greens go together, so to each their own.

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

My view is heavy promotes a decelerated stroke

 

Which is a good thing…

 

24 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Light putter promotes exact opposite which is conducive to better speed control.

 

Nah.

 

Flat speed or slight deceleration is a good thing in putting.

[Nard_S]

Just now, iacas said:

 

Which is a good thing…

 

 

Nah.

 

Flat speed or slight deceleration is a good thing in putting.

So for every golf shot, it works better accelerating into impact but for putting it does not? Tee shot, gir shot, bunker shot, chipping & pitching, near peak speed and accelerating is desired. But for putts we will bunt, ........that's just whack, lol. 

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

So for every golf shot, it works better accelerating into impact but for putting it does not? Tee shot, gir shot, bunker shot, chipping & pitching, near peak speed and accelerating is desired. But for putts we will bunt, ........that's just whack, lol. 

 

Nobody said to bunt, but… yes. Putting works best slightly decelerating at impact.

 

 

This guy did okay.

[Nard_S]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Nobody said to bunt, but… yes. Putting works best slightly decelerating at impact.

 

 

This guy did okay.

Even if it is only truly an intent, where a radar monitor can say "you are lying", that intent of accelerating to impact is better. I can control the backoff of release far easier than adding. Charts or "data" is somewhat meaningless in that respect. To have a framework of "well I'll bunt this to this break line" is a losing proposition.  Face control gets tossed in garbage can. Putting with coal irons & utilizing funky gripping is explainable with that mind set. Again, don't mind being an outlier on this, my results leave me comfortable with this aspect of the game. There's a lot in I&A I learned and have a lot respect for but the short game stuff is something I'm glad I have found my own path on.

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Even if it is only truly an intent, where a radar monitor can say "you are lying", that intent of accelerating to impact is better.

 

I don't agree, but it's not really the topic here, so… I'll be very brief.

 

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

To have a framework of "well I'll bunt this to this break line" is a losing proposition.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Face control gets tossed in garbage can.

 

No, it doesn't.

 

6 minutes ago, Nard_S said:

Putting with coal irons & utilizing funky gripping is explainable with that mind set.

 

Huh?

 

In short, I think you're picturing a massively decelerating shot or something, because you keep saying "bunt." A pendulum is decelerating slightly immediately after low point… just like many good putting strokes.

 

Technically deceleration is negative acceleration, so if you wanna say that's accelerating at impact, go ahead and we can agree. 😄 

 

The single biggest issue I see in putting is likely short, slow backswings and massive acceleration with big, long follow-throughs. I'll leave it at that.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by iacas