Morikawa 2-stroke penalty at Hero, explain please

[Augster]

Admittedly, I don’t really care about the green book penalties and stuff. I don’t use them, nobody I play with uses them. It’s not an issue. 
 

According to the broadcast today, Morikawa use a green reading device on the PRACTICE green before round 3.  “Those notes were written in the yardage book and those notes developed with that device were used on the 4th hole, which is against the Rules and why he was assessed a 2 shot penalty before the 4th round.”

 

Really? On the putting green? Or was it the the fact he made ANY notes. I know they are more strict now about what can and can’t be in the books now. 
 

Thanks. 

[rogolf]

I haven't seen it or heard any of the details, but this may answer some questions:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2021/12/model-local-rule-further-limit-use-green-reading-materials-usga.html

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, Augster said:

Admittedly, I don’t really care about the green book penalties and stuff. I don’t use them, nobody I play with uses them. It’s not an issue. 
 

According to the broadcast today, Morikawa use a green reading device on the PRACTICE green before round 3.  “Those notes were written in the yardage book and those notes developed with that device were used on the 4th hole, which is against the Rules and why he was assessed a 2 shot penalty before the 4th round.”

 

Really? On the putting green? Or was it the the fact he made ANY notes. I know they are more strict now about what can and can’t be in the books now. 
 

Thanks. 

 

According to what I saw a short while ago, the fact that the notes were derived from using a device made those notes illegal to use during play.

 

But how he only used those particular notes on a SINGLE hole is what's puzzling to me.

[nsxguy]

4 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I haven't seen it or heard any of the details, but this may answer some questions:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2021/12/model-local-rule-further-limit-use-green-reading-materials-usga.html

 

Ahhhh, there it is.

 

Handwritten notes may contain information gained only through personal experiences of the player or the player’s caddie from the course or by watching a televised broadcast, but are limited to information gained:

➢ While observing a ball that was rolled or played (whether by the player, caddie or someone else) or

➢ Through the player’s or caddie’s feel or general observations of the putting
green.

[1t2golf]

How did Matt Snitchpatrick see the notes, that they were from a green reading device and know when they were used? Are all hand written notes prohibited? 

 

 

 

[davep043]

19 minutes ago, 1t2golf said:

How did Matt Snitchpatrick see the notes, that they were from a green reading device and know when they were used? Are all hand written notes prohibited? 

 

 

 

The post above your quotes the rule, you simply cannot use devices (such as a digital level) to assist you in making those notes.  Perhaps Colin's caddie was seen using a level on the course at some time.

[grm24]

9 minutes ago, davep043 said:

The post above your quotes the rule, you simply cannot use devices (such as a digital level) to assist you in making those notes.  Perhaps Colin's caddie was seen using a level on the course at some time.

From golf.com

 

Cox met with JJ Jakovac, Morikawa’s caddie, about two hours before their 12:03 p.m. final-round tee time. After reviewing his yardage book, it became clear that Jakovac had created a putting chart, which isn’t a violation of the rules in itself, but the manner of obtaining the information is key to the ruling. Jakovac used a level on the practice putting green and wrote a note directly into his yardage book and used it for assessing the read on the fourth hole during Saturday’s third round.

[bluedot]

I can make a guess that the notes MIGHT have been about the calibration aspect of AimPoint, which has to do with how far you extend your arm based on the speed of the greens.  You’d use the level on the practice green to assess a sample of slopes, then putt to determine what that percent of slope meant at those particular green speeds.  
 

If I understood Morikawa’s post round interview, he had been reading his own putts without help from his caddie until the 4th hole yesterday.  If it was a 2% slope, that’s a lot of break, so the caddie steps in, then consults the book.  From memory would be fine; from written notes is not.

 

No idea how Fitzpatrick would have known about the written notes, but it may simply have been that he or his caddie saw Morikawa and his caddie using the level and then making notes on the practice green, then using them, which is not allowed.

 

It’s very tempting to flame Fitzpatrick for being a narc, but you MUST protect the field as a player in a golf tournament who observes a possible Rules violation.  The only thing I’d be curious about would be what, if any, conversation happened between the two players after the incident.  Perhaps Fitzpatrick warned him, and that’s why it didn’t happen again?  If so, good on Fitzpatrick for stepping up in a hard situation.

 

 

[Lobby]

Another bs rule from the USGA that actually damages the game. 
 

these guys remind me of an out of control Home Owners Association penalizing you if your trash cans are in the wrong place

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 hour ago, grm24 said:

From golf.com

 

Cox met with JJ Jakovac, Morikawa’s caddie, about two hours before their 12:03 p.m. final-round tee time. After reviewing his yardage book, it became clear that Jakovac had created a putting chart, which isn’t a violation of the rules in itself, but the manner of obtaining the information is key to the ruling. Jakovac used a level on the practice putting green and wrote a note directly into his yardage book and used it for assessing the read on the fourth hole during Saturday’s third round.

He only used this information to make notes on one hole?  He didn't make any other notes about green breaking for any other hole?  If a level was used on the practice green to tell the caddie, "Hey, a 2.6% slope causes 13.5" of break at 20'," or whatever, how is that information not going to be distributed for all of the green reading notes in that book?

 

I'm a bit perplexed about exactly what was written where and using which information.

[bluedot]

46 minutes ago, Lobby said:

Another bs rule from the USGA that actually damages the game. 
 

these guys remind me of an out of control Home Owners Association penalizing you if your trash cans are in the wrong place

I don’t think this is the USGA.  I could be wrong, but I think these are PGA Tour rules.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, bluedot said:

I don’t think this is the USGA.  I could be wrong, but I think these are PGA Tour rules.

 

The PGA Tour doesn't make up their own rules.

 

The MLR was linked to up above.

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by iacas

[bluedot]

50 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

He only used this information to make notes on one hole?  He didn't make any other notes about green breaking for any other hole?  If a level was used on the practice green to tell the caddie, "Hey, a 2.6% slope causes 13.5" of break at 20'," or whatever, how is that information not going to be distributed for all of the green reading notes in that book?

 

I'm a bit perplexed about exactly what was written where and using which information.

I think the formula they devised on the practice green using the level is the issue; they could use that from memory, but they couldn’t consult the notes in the yardage book, which the caddie did only on that one green.  It’s not about THAT green; it’s the work they did on the practice green with a measuring device, and then consulting the written notes while playing.

[bluedot]

12 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

The PGA Tour doesn't make up their own rules.

 

The MLR was linked to up above.

 

You’re right; good catch.  The Tour has decided to adopt that particular MLR.

[PuffyC]

Because practice greens are identical to every other green on the course 🤪

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

 

The PGA Tour doesn't make up their own rules.

 

The MLR was linked to up above.

 

Further to that, the MLR are produced by a joint Rules Committee, which includes the USGA and the R&A;  there's one set of Rules worldwide.

And to support use of the MLR, I much prefer to see players reading greens (a required skill) rather than reading a yardage book!

[bcjim]

10 hours ago, bluedot said:

I think the formula they devised on the practice green using the level is the issue; they could use that from memory, but they couldn’t consult the notes in the yardage book, which the caddie did only on that one green.  It’s not about THAT green; it’s the work they did on the practice green with a measuring device, and then consulting the written notes while playing.

What if he or the caddie had written it on their arm?

[antip]

1 hour ago, bcjim said:

What if he or the caddie had written it on their arm?

"Hand drawn or written information about a putting green is only allowed if contained in a book or paper meeting the size limit and written by the player and/or his or her caddie. "

[antip]

13 hours ago, Lobby said:

Another bs rule from the USGA that actually damages the game. 
 

these guys remind me of an out of control Home Owners Association penalizing you if your trash cans are in the wrong place

Nonsense. One single, permitted approach for every player in the event. And one guy abused the rule. 

 

The Ruling Bodies are simply protecting something resembling the traditional game from a total, technology takeover by profit-motivated entities. 

[Mr. Bean]

14 hours ago, Lobby said:

Another bs rule from the USGA that actually damages the game. 

 

I would the thrilled to hear how limiting reading of slopes of the greens using clinometer and such devices damages the game.

[Pastit]

19 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I would the thrilled to hear how limiting reading of slopes of the greens using clinometer and such devices damages the game.

Because it evolved as a simple game, played quickly; even quicker once we got sheep out of the bunkers, and that’s how it should stay. Ban “ gadget men “.

[denkea]

16 hours ago, iacas said:

The PGA Tour doesn't make up their own rules.

 

How about the issue of using a 'coin like object' to mark a ball?  The USGA allows a ball to be marked with different things.  The PGA tour does not.  

[szaino]

This is from the PGA Tour player handbook.

 

[1t2golf]

Here's a good breakdown of what transpired.

 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/pro-collin-morikawa-gaffe-penalty/

 

[third-times-a-charm]

18 hours ago, Lobby said:

Another bs rule from the USGA that actually damages the game. 
 

these guys remind me of an out of control Home Owners Association penalizing you if your trash cans are in the wrong place

Yep.

 

Further proven by the amount of 'reactive' rules implemented over the years. Like when someone paints their house pink and a rule is made afterwards to keep them from doing it again 😂

 

Golf is its own worst enemy 90% of the time.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

How about the issue of using a 'coin like object' to mark a ball?  The USGA allows a ball to be marked with different things.  The PGA tour does not.  

 

PGA Tour also requires long trousers for men. There is no Rule of Golf for that.

 

What is the problem here as you see it? There are hundreds and thousands of sports events in the world where there are some requirements not dictated by the rules of that sport but by the organizing party.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

How about the issue of using a 'coin like object' to mark a ball?  The USGA allows a ball to be marked with different things.  The PGA tour does not.  

Does the PGA Tour assess Penalty Strokes for this?  Do you have the actual rule for us to read?  The Tour does have conditions of competition which go beyond the actual Rules of Golf, and there may be fines or other discipline involved, but there won't be Penalty Strokes other than are defined under the Rules of Golf.

[Mr. Bean]

27 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

Yep.

 

Further proven by the amount of 'reactive' rules implemented over the years. Like when someone paints their house pink and a rule is made afterwards to keep them from doing it again 😂

 

Golf is its own worst enemy 90% of the time.

 

So.... what you seem to imply is that there should be no development in the Rules whatsoever. Nice approach.

 

I guess you also protest against any removing of loopholes in national laws as that is reactive 😉

[iacas]

1 hour ago, denkea said:

How about the issue of using a 'coin like object' to mark a ball?  The USGA allows a ball to be marked with different things.  The PGA tour does not.  

 

You replied to me, and I was going to reply, but… @Mr. Bean and @davep043 covered it IMO:

 

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Does the PGA Tour assess Penalty Strokes for this?  Do you have the actual rule for us to read?  The Tour does have conditions of competition which go beyond the actual Rules of Golf, and there may be fines or other discipline involved, but there won't be Penalty Strokes other than are defined under the Rules of Golf.

[rogolf]

See the link below.  This was a PGA Tour "rule" at the time.  The outcome was that the Tour then realized that it wasn't part of the Rules of golf and removed their "rule" to conform with the RoG.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-hungover-david-feherty-once-got-penalized-for-using-a-hotel-key-as-a-ball-marker