Morikawa 2-stroke penalty at Hero, explain please

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

 

1 hour ago, 1t2golf said:

Here's a good breakdown of what transpired.

 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/pro-collin-morikawa-gaffe-penalty/

 

That was helpful, thank you.  Also @szaino's cite to the player handbook.

 

So, from the article, Morikawa and caddie got bad information from an official and inconsistent with what other officials were saying. 

 

2nd, the penalty isn't in using a level on a practice green; it's taking handwritten notes about it.  Although handwritten notes are fine for other information personally gathered by player & caddie, but not if you use a level or another device (besides your Equipment) to personally gather that info.

 

JFC, what a mish-mash mess of a drafted regulation, plus a failure of communication to the players.  Retroactively assessing a penalty too...

 

From the article, the penalty was assessed the next day, after Morikawa already signed his scorecard.  DQ for signing a wrong scorecard is no longer a thing?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

I mean, I get what the USGA is trying to do here:  not let guys use tech to read greens in round.  OK, sounds good. 

 

This sort of calibration work that it sounds like Morikawa was doing though---two fingers right of the cup read is really 2.5 fingers at this course---isn't any different than working on things at the range with a launch monitor.  They're not allowed to write anything in their yardage book learned from those sessions either?

 

If you want to ban tech at the golf course, it seems like you should be banning the tech, not the notetaking.

 

"I only used it on one hole."  Uh-huh, sure Jan.

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

From the article, the penalty was assessed the next day, after Morikawa already signed his scorecard.  DQ for signing a wrong scorecard is no longer a thing?

 

Hasn't been for awhile. Not if you didn't know you incurred a penalty. I don't like that, but it changed in 2019, IIRC.

[Lobby]

This reminds me of the 4 stroke penalty Lexi Thompson received for not placing her ball correctly on her marker.   The next day.   After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

That cost her a major

There are a lot of us who remember that nonsense.  And we chafe at overzealous rules / rules officials

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Lobby said:

This reminds me of the 4 stroke penalty Lexi Thompson received for not placing her ball correctly on her marker.   The next day.   After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

That cost her a major

There are a lot of us who remember that nonsense.  And we chafe at overzealous rules / rules officials

Explain to me who is overzealous in either case?  Rules officials/referees are required to followup on any potential Rules breach that they see or or is reported to them.  That is expected by all the players, fans, sponsors etc.

Edited December 4, 2023 by rogolf

[vandyfan]

Just coming to say here, outside of this rules violation which I don't really care about, is that Collin Morikawa seems fairly unlikeable in general. Like the more I hear about him the more he seems like kind of a petulant, robot, humorless person. I really enjoyed him complaining that the rules official was FIVE MINUTES LATE to their meeting. How dare he? 

[KevCarter]

28 minutes ago, Lobby said:

This reminds me of the 4 stroke penalty Lexi Thompson received for not placing her ball correctly on her marker.   The next day.   After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

That cost her a major

There are a lot of us who remember that nonsense.  And we chafe at overzealous rules / rules officials

 

Marking her ball incorrectly cost her a major...

[sui generis]

1 hour ago, Lobby said:

After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

Not quite, the call was from a gambler who was about to lose big. 😉

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Lobby said:

This reminds me of the 4 stroke penalty Lexi Thompson received for not placing her ball correctly on her marker.   The next day.   After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

That cost her a major

There are a lot of us who remember that nonsense.  And we chafe at overzealous rules / rules officials

 

I remember that, too. I remember how Lexi tried to cheat by placing her ball somewhere else than from the spot she lifted it from to avoid a spike mark or other small damage on the green. She did that even though she knew EXACTLY what she was doing and that it was a breach.

 

Tell me again what was nonsense, her actions, the TV-spectator's or the Tournament Committee's?

[iacas]

3 hours ago, Lobby said:

This reminds me of the 4 stroke penalty Lexi Thompson received for not placing her ball correctly on her marker.   The next day.   After a fan noticed on TV and called the powers that be.

 

I think it was actually an off-duty rules official who called that one in.

 

2 hours ago, KevCarter said:

Marking her ball incorrectly cost her a major...

 

Yep.

[Augster]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Hasn't been for awhile. Not if you didn't know you incurred a penalty. I don't like that, but it changed in 2019, IIRC.

It changed, more or less, when Tiger took a bad drop at the Masters in 2013, signed an incorrect card, and didn’t get DQ’d. 
 

It changed, officially, in 2019 as you say. 🙂

 

 

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, Augster said:

It changed, more or less, when Tiger took a bad drop at the Masters in 2013, signed an incorrect card, and didn’t get DQ’d.

 

Ha ha ha, I know. 😉 And that's all I'll say about that. 😄 

[st1800e]

10 hours ago, vandyfan said:

is that Collin Morikawa seems fairly unlikeable in general

Good to know.  

[antip]

20 hours ago, Pastit said:

Because it evolved as a simple game, played quickly; even quicker once we got sheep out of the bunkers, and that’s how it should stay. Ban “ gadget men “.

We're still struggling with the 'roos in bunkers. The greenies won't let us shoot the bast...s.

[Pleasedwith3putts]

On 12/3/2023 at 9:18 PM, bluedot said:

 

 

It’s very tempting to flame Fitzpatrick for being a narc, but you MUST protect the field as a player in a golf tournament who observes a possible Rules violation.  

 

 

Spot on. No different to seeing another player carrying 15 clubs, improving a lie, moving a ball or any other rule infringement, you have a duty to the field to report it.

[Pastit]

14 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

Spot on. No different to seeing another player carrying 15 clubs, improving a lie, moving a ball or any other rule infringement, you have a duty to the field to report it.

In an ideal world, yes, but IMO > 50% of players let breaches lie. 

[sui generis]

4 hours ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

Spot on. No different to seeing another player carrying 15 clubs, improving a lie, moving a ball or any other rule infringement, you have a duty to the field to report it.

 

And, if anyone thinks that this a "made up" Rule, go here and see R20.1c:

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20&subrulenum=1

[davep043]

18 hours ago, Lobby said:

And we chafe at overzealous rules / rules officials

The rules officials JOB is to do their best to make sure that all players follow the rules.  Would you prefer that the officials refuse to investigate a potential violation that is reported to them?  

[denkea]

23 hours ago, davep043 said:

Does the PGA Tour assess Penalty Strokes for this?  Do you have the actual rule for us to read?  The Tour does have conditions of competition which go beyond the actual Rules of Golf, and there may be fines or other discipline involved, but there won't be Penalty Strokes other than are defined under the Rules of Golf.

 

23 hours ago, iacas said:

 

You replied to me, and I was going to reply, but… @Mr. Bean and @davep043 covered it IMO:

 

David Feherty WAS penalized for using a key to mark a ball in one of his first tournaments on the PGA tour. 

[davep043]

22 hours ago, rogolf said:

See the link below.  This was a PGA Tour "rule" at the time.  The outcome was that the Tour then realized that it wasn't part of the Rules of golf and removed their "rule" to conform with the RoG.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/a-hungover-david-feherty-once-got-penalized-for-using-a-hotel-key-as-a-ball-marker

 

11 minutes ago, denkea said:

 

David Feherty WAS penalized for using a key to mark a ball in one of his first tournaments on the PGA tour. 

Yup, I read that when @rogolf posted it earlier in this thread.  I don't have documentation, but I believe him when he says the PGA Tour removed this "rule" in order to comply with the Rules of Golf.  So I'll ask again, can you show me a PGA Tour rule that assesses a Penalty Stroke where the Rules of Golf don't?

[Newby]

10 hours ago, Pastit said:

In an ideal world, yes, but IMO > 50% of players let breaches lie. 

Do you mean players in general or just the pros?

[dashanks]

On 12/4/2023 at 3:53 AM, bcjim said:

What if he or the caddie had written it on their arm?

I tried to get through college like that.  Didn't work for me.

[Pastit]

16 hours ago, Newby said:

Do you mean players in general or just the pros?

From my own experience of c 45 years of competitive golf with mid-handicappers, who just want to avoid hassle, and some caddying for elite amateurs. I’ve played a few alliance events with and against pros but have not seen many blatant breaches here; only some patting down of grass in the rough and poor etiquette eg on top of you when putting on similar lines. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pastit
Omission

[bulls9999]

Collin Morikawa “mad” at PGA Tour after Matt Fitzpatrick tattled at Hero World Challenge (msn.com)

 

During Saturday’s third round, Morikawa was playing alongside Ryder Cup rival Matt Fitzpatrick.

On the fourth hole, Morikawa’s caddie used a level to measure the slope of the green. He then transferred that information into the yardage book. That was in direct violation of Model Local Rule G-11, which prohibits players from using green-reading materials other than their pre-approved yardage book.

----------

 

OK, so it wasn't only on the practice green, but wait a minute... Morikawa's caddie used a 'level' to measure the slope of the green????  You mean a carpentry level (I have a small one to help determine the level of a picture i'm hanging).  How does that help with anything?  I presume the greens are not a constant pitch from one side to the other, there are valleys, hills, side hills, etc.  So how does knowing how much slope a short stretch of green (6 inches?) is showing helps you throughout the rest of the green?  

[rogolf]

5 minutes ago, bulls9999 said:

Collin Morikawa “mad” at PGA Tour after Matt Fitzpatrick tattled at Hero World Challenge (msn.com)

 

During Saturday’s third round, Morikawa was playing alongside Ryder Cup rival Matt Fitzpatrick.

On the fourth hole, Morikawa’s caddie used a level to measure the slope of the green. He then transferred that information into the yardage book. That was in direct violation of Model Local Rule G-11, which prohibits players from using green-reading materials other than their pre-approved yardage book.

----------

 

OK, so it wasn't only on the practice green, but wait a minute... Morikawa's caddie used a 'level' to measure the slope of the green????  You mean a carpentry level (I have a small one to help determine the level of a picture i'm hanging).  How does that help with anything?  I presume the greens are not a constant pitch from one side to the other, there are valleys, hills, side hills, etc.  So how does knowing how much slope a short stretch of green (6 inches?) is showing helps you throughout the rest of the green?  

It really doesn't matter if it helps you or not, the Rules prohibit it.

And, wherever you obtained the info that the caddie used a level on the fourth hole, it is totally wrong.  He did not use a level on the 4th hole, nor any hole.

Further, it's every player's responsibility to "protect the entire field of players" by reporting potential Rules breaches to the player or to the Committee.  All the players want the competition played by the Rules.

[st1800e]

Years ago in the club champ in our group of three I happened  to look at the bag of the player while he was teeing off.  5 wedges!  Wow, that’s something.  Wondered what he’d taken out to accommodate those.  Curious, I looked around his bag - 16 clubs! 
Hmmm… as a former club captain as was the 3rd player along with us.  We discussed discreetly.   No option here, have to protect the field.   So I was “elected”, haha, to advise the offender , which I did at the end of the round.  💥explosion!
Hasn’t talked to me ever since.  

Do I care? NO. 

So Morikawa is mad at Fitzpatrick,  really? I wouldn’t call that “professional behaviour”. 

And the excuse that his caddie asked some people? Obviously didn’t ask the tournament officials directly, or ask the question with full disclosure.   

 

Golf IS getting “corny”. 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, st1800e said:

Years ago in the club champ in our group of three I happened  to look at the bag of the player while he was teeing off.  5 wedges!  Wow, that’s something.  Wondered what he’d taken out to accommodate those.  Curious, I looked around his bag - 16 clubs! 
Hmmm… as a former club captain as was the 3rd player along with us.  We discussed discreetly.   No option here, have to protect the field.   So I was “elected”, haha, to advise the offender , which I did at the end of the round.  💥explosion!
Hasn’t talked to me ever since.  

Do I care? NO. 

 

At the end of the round? Really??

[davep043]

11 hours ago, bulls9999 said:

but wait a minute... Morikawa's caddie used a 'level' to measure the slope of the green????  You mean a carpentry level (I have a small one to help determine the level of a picture i'm hanging).  How does that help with anything?

Anyone who has ever used Aimpoint has been instructed in the use of a digital level (which measures slopes to 0.1%) to help to learn to accurately estimate slopes.  I'd guess that's what the caddie used.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

Anyone who has ever used Aimpoint has been instructed in the use of a digital level (which measures slopes to 0.1%) to help to learn to accurately estimate slopes.  I'd guess that's what the caddie used.

 

Not to mention that there are clinometers available for smartphones with accuracy of 0,1° (not %, that is different).

[iacas]

12 hours ago, st1800e said:

So I was “elected”, haha, to advise the offender , which I did at the end of the round.  💥explosion!
Hasn’t talked to me ever since.  

Do I care? NO.

 

OT, but… I'm with @Mr. Bean… at the end of the round?