Ascending weight/flex build with 2x SS shafts

[Kwheat]

Hey all,

 

Hoping I could get a double check on my logic for this year's build.

 

Last year played px LZ 6.5 SSx1 in zx7s, midsize MCC 2 wraps, 1 extra under right hand.  Very solid setup for my semi smooth/less aggressive swing.  I built them .25 over and used lead tape to create a "tighter" AMT progression.   I do it by feel but it measured aprx:

GW/PW: 5 g head, 4g shaft, only .25 short of PW/9i respectively.  

9: 4 g head, 2g shaft

8: 3 g head

7: 2.5g head

6: 2g head

5: 1g head

4: none

 

I will copy this feel with my new build with px LZ 7.0s.  The 6.5s were great but my 4/5 iron were on the low side of my desired window esp the 4 off the deck.  6-8 height was great but dispersion favored the left side: I can hook, draw and hit cut shots but a cut really just went straight, a real cut was very difficult without a major swing manipulation.  9-gw were solid.  In general misses are low/left more than push. I can hit cuts with x100s, but PX shafts (especially softer mids like LZ or GD in woods) for me really fit my tempo and "need" to feel a shaft load.  Also I like the flight of PX vs x100s.  

 

Here's a breakdown of last year's shot shapes, aprx distances and misses after I compiled everything:

 

I play around a scratch to 3, driving,iron game/putting are my strengths, deck fairway (never seem to get great contact, typically thin fades) and 15-50yds my weaknesses.  115ish SS w/driver

 

Long winded way of getting to the iron build goals:

1. Increase long iron height off deck with combination of zx5 heads and 7.0 SSx2 (123) which should be just a hair heavier than LZ 6.5 SSx1 (122.5ish) but w/higher launch.  Keep shot shapes simple

2. Decrease left dispersion in 6-8, increase ability to hit true cuts (cuts with 6.5LZ go straight unless they are teed up) by going to 7.0 SSx2 weight BUT tip trim 3/8 so they are really closer to SSx1 stiffness which should help with dispersion

3. 9-gw maintain current performance but not have to use a ton of the lead tape.   7.0 SSx1 or straight in...?  I haven't totally wrapped my head around how much the lead tape did to SW vs softening the shaft in the 6.5 build

 

Are these assumptions good ones to solve goal 1 (zx5 heads should do a big chunk of this I think) and especially 2?   

 

I've done the reading/math on it and I think a 7.0 SSx1 plays like a 6.6/126.5, SSx2 like 6.3/123.  I'd like to stay under 125 until I get to the shorter clubs then start adding lead tape as need be.  

 

 I'm not hell bent on px LZ 7.0s, just thought it would be the logical next step and I can get 2-pw set so all the soft stepping should be easy enough to do.  Open to other suggestions as well, I am willing to even drop down to 120 weight class and likely will drop 1 layer of tape to save 2g if it makes sense to achieve what I'm looking for.  Anything lighter and I get too squirrely, launch goes way too high.  

 

 

Edited January 21, 2024 by Kwheat

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, Kwheat said:

Are these assumptions good ones to solve goal 1 (zx5 heads should do a big chunk of this I think) and especially 2?  

 

Sorry, it's never a good idea to assume anything about what will happen to the shot shape or ball flight based on changing weight or stiffness - or any other club spec (except maybe loft).   It's way too dependent on the subjective influence of the feel of the club on the swing - not to mention the way the specifics of one's mechanics can influence the effect of a particular club change.   For any particular club change that has the potential to effect the feel of the club, no two people will necessary get the same ball flight change.

 

If you want to play around with those ideas, that's fine.  But always test them out on a single club before putting in the effort to change the whole set otherwise you risk wasting a whole lot of time, effort and money.

 

Now if you don't mind taking that risk - that's up to you.    But no one here will be able to tell you if it will work or not.

 

 

10 hours ago, Kwheat said:

I've done the reading/math on it and I think a 7.0 SSx1 plays like a 6.6/126.5, SSx2 like 6.3/123. 

 

FCM is a horrible metric to try and predict how a shaft will play and what ball flight results you might get - so don't waste your time on math like that.   Just go out and demo them and see what happens to the ball flight.     Yes, it takes a bit more time and effort but there are no math based (or any other based) short cuts when it comes to these kind of questions.    At best, there are some unreliable generalizations to help guide the process but never any with any guarantees.

 

Edited January 21, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Kwheat]

Thanks @Stuart_G I kind of figured that might be an answer for those assumptions.

 

  Color me confused though, I thought soft/hard stepping gave fairly exact flex change measurements?  I'm really more interested in it from a weight perspective with the added bonus of the flex being "similar" to what was played before.  I thought I've read, I think from the other club guru here @Howard_Jones that if it's within the same shaft family, these measurements can be valid.  If the goals were misplaced that is fine, I'd at least like to confirm that the build specs are correct?  

 

After thinking about it more overnight, given the 6.5LZ specs I posted, did I really build a set that had increasing SW/mass from 4-P but decreasing flex (I think 9-gw were really SSx2 with the extra tape)…?    Just trying to understand what I did, knowing that it's the feel I like.

 

Totally understand that a flex change can't predict flight change (I was hoping slightly stiffer = removing some of the left tendency LZ are known for), I'll get to demoing.

Edited January 21, 2024 by Kwheat

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Kwheat said:

Color me confused though, I thought soft/hard stepping gave fairly exact flex change measurements? 

 

We can predict changes in butt frequency (or FCM) - more so for steel than graphite - but the problem is that is a very poor representation of how much it might change in feel or how much loading and forward bend (loft added) at impact.   

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/73753/wishon-shaft-frequency-can-be-misleading/

 

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Kwheat said:

Thanks @Stuart_G I kind of figured that might be an answer for those assumptions.

 

  Color me confused though, I thought soft/hard stepping gave fairly exact flex change measurements?  I'm really more interested in it from a weight perspective with the added bonus of the flex being "similar" to what was played before.  I thought I've read, I think from the other club guru here @Howard_Jones that if it's within the same shaft family, these measurements can be valid.  If the goals were misplaced that is fine, I'd at least like to confirm that the build specs are correct?  

 

After thinking about it more overnight, given the 6.5LZ specs I posted, did I really build a set that had increasing SW/mass from 4-P but decreasing flex (I think 9-gw were really SSx2 with the extra tape)…?    Just trying to understand what I did, knowing that it's the feel I like.

 

Totally understand that a flex change can't predict flight change (I was hoping slightly stiffer = removing some of the left tendency LZ are known for), I'll get to demoing.

You did NOT manipulate FLEX to a level worth to mention, only SW/MOI value, so lets take the shortest club as example 

- 1 SWP = 1 CPM or 1/10 of a flex class (PX 6.5 to 7.0 is average 5 CPM)
4 grams added head wgt, to a #9 iron at plus 0.25 is 1.76 SWP or 1.76 CPM.
Soft stepping 1x is average 4 CPM....the typical tolerance on steel shafts is plus minus 1.5-2.0 CPM 

Iron Byron (the robot) will see a APEX thats 1 feet higher for each 1 CPM lower.....we are indeed splitting hairs down to a level it makes no sense for a human, so the major factor here, is really added feel of head wgt, NOT flex.

To me, it seems like you should use some progression on SW value from long to short, if the set worked better when you did that, but DONT worry about "flex", its really the actual MOI value or feel of head wgt that improved it, it was NOT a change of flex due to that weight to a level that can explain improvements.

That set is not far off what Stuart plays (if he still use 0.5 SWP progression), and thats what we call "the poor mans MOI match, even if its a tad off...

When we use the SW scale, and our irons is 0.5" as progression to play length, the closest we get to a MOI matched set is by using 0.66 SWP progression per club, while many simply go for 0.5 SWP since its simpler.

THIS chart tells you how many grams there is for each SWP vs the clubs PL, so your head wgt progression change, is right below 0.5 SWP per club....(what ever works is the ONLY valid rule in the end.)





 i had to much red wine for Sunday dinner, but try to make a slope where progression is 0.5 SWP extra for each club shorter....i think that will work just fine for you

Edited January 21, 2024 by Howard_Jones

[Kwheat]

@Howard_Jones I really appreciate it!  Makes complete sense.  Once I get everything built out and tested I'll circle back and give feedback.  Cheers to more red wine (I used to be a beer brewer years ago and I'm a big fan of a good red with dinner)

[BREWMASTER95060]

The location of lead tape on the shaft?

[BREWMASTER95060]

The location of lead tape on the shaft?
head weight(- the lead tape)?
trimmed shaft weight(- the lead tape)?

[Kwheat]

14 hours ago, BREWMASTER95060 said:

The location of lead tape on the shaft?
head weight(- the lead tape)?
trimmed shaft weight(- the lead tape)?

14"

 

4-p weight no tape

245

5 iron missing weight

259

266

271

280

288

 

Shaft weight 7.0 LZ SS 2x

120.37

120.25

120.13

119.17

119.03

118.45

118.30

if you need the 6.5LZ SS1 uncut I don't have it (grips are still on)